Column in the Michigan School Newspaper

[Goon]

Has the FBI done a four-year study on how the general public views Ralph Engelstad? The question is not whether he was actually a Nazi sypathizer, it is how people view him. I worked at the World Juniors for Hockey Canada, and there were plenty of Canadian journalists who had questions regarding Ralph and possible Nazi activity.

Someone can be best remebered for something that isn't true. For example, Josh may best remembered on this message board for being a supposedly lousy journalist, who doesn't look into what he says. However, both his position at the Michigan Daily and the fact that he has been accepted to law school suggest otherwise.

Whether or not Ralph Engelstad was a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with whether or not people think of him as one. It's sad, but labels stick on people.

Josh is not the first columnist to use a generalization in a column. Rick Reilly (Sports Illustrated) does it quite often in his work (a piece that completely bashes Detroit Redwing fans comes to mind first). I'm sure Redwing fans thought is was a little libelous, but I, along with many other readers, thought it was hilarious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who are you and why are you enabling Josh? What the hell is this world coming to. Now we have people sticking up for Josh, apparently dorky reporters can't have their columns questioned and they have handlers even for college news papers, yikes. Take your geek logic and go away.

[redwing77]

edo1313 Wrote (quoted):

"Has the FBI done a four-year study on how the general public views Ralph Engelstad? The question is not whether he was actually a Nazi sypathizer, it is how people view him. I worked at the World Juniors for Hockey Canada, and there were plenty of Canadian journalists who had questions regarding Ralph and possible Nazi activity. "

The FBI is in the business of FACTS. Up until recently, I thought the media was too. Printing a percieved thought or opinion on how the populace percieves without the term "alleged" or something similar is something called "defamation of character" or libel. I'm sure Holdman can tell you, as a law student, both of which are perfectly lawsuit worthy.

"Someone can be best remebered for something that isn't true. For example, Josh may best remembered on this message board for being a supposedly lousy journalist, who doesn't look into what he says. However, both his position at the Michigan Daily and the fact that he has been accepted to law school suggest otherwise."

Knowing people who have gone into law school, I can say that his journalistic abilities have very little to do with his acceptance into law school. I thought it was a combination of an interview, essays, an application, undergrad GPA, and LCAT scores. I'm sure the interviewers thought that his participation in the newspaper and the band were nice extracurricular activities, but I'm not positive that would translate into law school material. Perhaps some of hte legal beagles here can chime in on this.

"Whether or not Ralph Engelstad was a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with whether or not people think of him as one. It's sad, but labels stick on people."

The purpose of the media is to state the facts, not perpectuate assumptions and stereotypes. People are innocent until proven guilty, but there I go quoting legal BS again.

"Josh is not the first columnist to use a generalization in a column. Rick Reilly (Sports Illustrated) does it quite often in his work (a piece that completely bashes Detroit Redwing fans comes to mind first). I'm sure Redwing fans thought is was a little libelous, but I, along with many other readers, thought it was hilarious."

And generalizations are just as dangerous. I don't read Reilly's column. But if he was slamming the fans, so be it. I'm just as likely to put him on par with the subpar writing abilities shown to me by Mr. Holdman.

Edited April 23, 2005 by redwing77

[edo1313]

Here's a fact: Ralph Engelstad was fined $1.5 million by the Nevada Gaming Control Board because of allegations surrounding Nazi-themed parties he threw. It was a settlement between Engelstad's attorneys and the board. Obviously, there is some substance behind the allegations.

If you want to view Ralph Engelstad as a hero, that is your choice. Keep in mind though, that he has done things that others see as shady.

[Supertrex]

Here's a fact:  Ralph Engelstad was fined $1.5 million by the Nevada Gaming Control Board because of allegations surrounding Nazi-themed parties he threw.  It was a settlement between Engelstad's attorneys and the board.  Obviously, there is some substance behind the allegations.

If you want to view Ralph Engelstad as a hero, that is your choice.  Keep in mind though, that he has done things that others see as shady.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A collector of memorabilia is not necessarily a sympathiser. In addition, a settlement was undoubtedly made for business reasons, which should be obvious to someone as smart as you. So where are your facts regarding your allegations? Are you basing them on the above?

[edo1313]

If you want to believe that he was fined that much for just having a collection of memorabilia that's your choice. Personally, I find that a little hard to believe.

I guess maintaining his gaming license was more important than clearing his name.

[Goon]

If you want to believe that he was fined that much for just having a collection of memorabilia that's your choice.  Personally, I find that a little hard to believe.

I guess maintaining his gaming license was more important than clearing his name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

edo1313=John Hoff perhaps.

[edo1313]

That's pretty funny.

... but not true.

[PCM]

Has the FBI done a four-year study on how the general public views Ralph Engelstad?

Edited April 24, 2005 by PCM

[Siouxman]

If you want to believe that he was fined that much for just having a collection of memorabilia that's your choice.  Personally, I find that a little hard to believe.

I guess maintaining his gaming license was more important than clearing his name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's see about this one. The Nevada Gaming Commission controls whether or not he continues in his livelihood, worth far more than $1.5 million. Whether or not he is innocent, it requires a business type decision whether you want to fight the Commission that controls your business and piss them off, or simply settle for a fine to get the matter resolved. Winning through business suicide is not winning at all.

In the business world, you cannot win at all costs. Guaranteed failure at some point. Do not confuse a business decision with fact of innocent or guilt. Many, many businesses agree to settlements or fines, because it is the cheapest alternative from a business perspective. And you can talk about standing up for integrity, if you are innocent, all you want. For many prominent people, you are viewed as guilty whether or not you are found innocent. It is a loss either way.

The Nevada Gaming Commission may have had a sticking point on some procedural item related to their rules that protect the public opinion of the gaming industry. It would likely have nothing to do with whether or not Engelstad was a Nazi sympathizer.

However, in the end it appears that you are simply exercising your U of Michigan perogative of stating an opinion without determining the facts.

[edo1313]

You might think you know what the general public thinks about Ralph Engelstad, but the truth is, you have no idea. In fact, I'd bet you a million bucks that if you did a national public opinion poll asking people who Ralph Engelstad was, better than 90 percent of the general public wouldn't even recognize his name.

I'll take it a step further. I'll bet if you did a public opinion poll of students at the University of Michigan, better than 90 percent of them would have no clue who Engelstad was. Of course, the 5 percent or so who read Josh's column and remembered what he said about Engelstad would label Engelstad a Nazi sympathizer. And that's the problem that you a Josh refuse to see.

You can bet on what you think other people think all you want, but the fact that there has been no FBI investigation regarding the public's opinion of Ralph is what I wanted to point out.

All I was saying in that post is that many of the people who have heard of Ralph Engelstad also know of the allegations surrounding the Nazi-themed parties. I've seen it with my own eyes on enough occasions to know that not everyone views UND's connection to Ralph Engelstad as good. And regardless of what any FBI report says, the fact remains that there ARE people who automatically associate Ralph's name to the controversy instead of his good deeds. It sucks, it really does, but that's the truth.

I'm not going to personally judge whether or not Ralph was a good guy or not. All I'm saying is that I still think the comments made in the Michigan column surrounding Ralph Engelstad were not that outrageous. After all, Ralph did have an extensive collection of Nazi memorabilia, so it is pretty safe to say that he was probably not completely disgusted with the Nazi party. As a person who donated more than $100 million to the University of North Dakota - a public institution - he opened the door for people to criticize him. We all know that public figures are subject to intense scrutiny.

[Siouxman]

After all, Ralph did have an extensive collection of Nazi memorabilia, so it is pretty safe to say that he was probably not completely disgusted with the Nazi party. As a person who donated more than $100 million to the University of North Dakota - a public institution - he opened the door for people to criticize him. We all know that public figures are subject to intense scrutiny.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

I just love watching people take sides on this. I just landed on the message boards at Duluth and a couple of them say this is a wonderfully written piece.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have any idea how much tPB members drink? It's impressive.

They're a fun bunch though....

[bigmrg74]

Do you have any idea how much tPB members drink? It's impressive.

They're a fun bunch though....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't they have a forum there just to talk about drinking??

[Sioux_Hab-it]

I think we have all had enough of Josh's bantering and it is time to move this thread where it should belong, the basketball chat. Josh has already admitted that he is more of a BB fan anyway. So Josh how about you give us your take on your Low-Down University and it's serious recruiting violations that lead to the infamous team ban a couple of years ago. What a scum-bag DI school and program, and damn glad you are a part of it and not me.

Just in case anyone has a short memory:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/um/0305/08/a01-159031.htm

[siouxjoy]

I just don't agree with your arguments on this point, which seems to be the one getting circulated over and over again. As sensitive as the subject is, this just isn't the place to spread the good word of Engelstad or dispell any rumors. No matter what kind of good things he did, he did some shady things that even some North Dakotans don't agree with. It's not an untrue statement and it's part of an opinion piece. You should know to take an opinion piece with a grain of salt. I'm just not convinced otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been reading this, and haven't chimed in because it seems like my opinion has been stated by others (probably a whole lot more eloquently than I could ever do) but now I have to type something:

Josh, you say that the opinion piece isn't a good place to dispell rumors, but what makes it a good place to perpetuate them? Why did it need to be brought up in the first place? If the point was to say that you have school pride and to instill it in your readers, why mention Ralph Engelstad? Why not compare Gerald Ford to, say, UND graduate Jim Kleinsasser, who also plays football like the former pres. did? Yeah, people have different opinions on Ralph, and I'm seeing that people have a lot of different opinions on you, too. I have read many times that you are a horrible journalist. Does that make it true?

You say your statement of Mr. Engelstad being a Nazi Sympathizer is true. Now, I am a scientist and not claiming to be a journalist, but that statement is not true. Had you stated: remembered outside of the state as an accused Nazi sympathizer, it would be true. Do you know that he was a sympathizer? Really know? If he didn't tell you himself, you have in fact made a false statement.

Yeah, it's an opinion piece, an you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. It's the way you support your opinion with half-truths and by belittling another that causes problems. I just find it hard to believe that the students at Michigan need someone making fun of North Dakota to instill school pride.

[PCM]

You can bet on what you think other people think all you want, but the fact that there has been no FBI investigation regarding the public's opinion of Ralph is what I wanted to point out.

When I you made this statement about the FBI the first time, I thought you were just being flippant. Apparently you really are that naive.

All I was saying in that post is that many of the people who have heard of Ralph Engelstad also know of the allegations surrounding the Nazi-themed parties.

Edited April 24, 2005 by PCM

[Supertrex]

If you want to believe that he was fined that much for just having a collection of memorabilia that's your choice.

[Siouxman]

PCM: Dang it. There you go again, dispelling innuendo with facts. Now I will have to draw an unsubstantiated opinion that quite possibly Engelstad was a man who also had an interest in history. Many of us gain an increasing interest in history as we get older. So there is my opinion, but please note that I said "quite possibly" so as not to create a fact that I can't prove.

siouxjoy: You touch on the very aspect of this that grated on me. My engineering training is similar to your scientific training (I believe) in that you create a hypothesis (you know, kind of like an opinion) and then try to prove or disprove it. You don't throw it out to the world as if it is fact until you have taken that next step. And you certainly don't publish it out of context.

I hereby vow to do my best to no longer post on this subject.

[Goon]

Many people have Nazi memorabilia due to their service in WWII. My dad has Nazi flags, a German officer pistol, and other items. He was in the 101st Airborne on D-Day, Operation Market Garden, and surrounded in Bastogne at the Battle of the Bulge. I don't think the fact that he has those items makes him a Nazi sympathizer. Again, you are insinuating guilt by innuendo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like your dad chewed some of the same dirt as the boys from Easy Company in Band of Brothers.

[Siouxman]

Sounds like your dad chewed some of the same dirt as the boys from Easy Company in Band of Brothers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's right. He did not not parachute in, although I think that would have been safer than going in by landing in a Waco glider in the dark as he did. I am a huge history buff on WWII, and the more I read and learn, the less important some of my daily issues become. He did make it through all the way to Bertchesgaden as Easy Company did.

[PCM]

Now I will have to draw an unsubstantiated opinion that quite possibly Engelstad was a man who also had an interest in history.

[sprig]

None of the facts ever stop the media from reviving the false accusation that Engelstad was a "Nazi sympathizer." But according to Josh and edo1313, it's okay for journalists to "safely assume" certain things about Engelstad. After all, it's not their fault that people continually associate his name with that unfair label.

And journalists today wonder why their profession is held in such low regard by the public.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These two may be auditioning for jobs with the National Inquirer.

[Slap Shot]

I have an honest question due to the fact I've never really dug into the whole question about Engelstad's background.

Why are some people so convinced he was a Nazi sypathizer, and why are others so convinced he was not?

Second, if he was does it really matter? Anyone trying to besmirch UND over this should be ignored and it doesn't imho negate the fact UND is a quality insitution, with a hockey tradition their fans should always be proud to celebrate.

[that last part wasn't easy to write ]

[PCM]

Why are some people so convinced he was a Nazi sypathizer, and why are others so convinced he was not? 

I can't speak for why other people think what they do, but the FBI investigation over a four-year period "failed to produce any 'solid evidence' Engelstad was a Nazi or had 'such beliefs.'" I never thought Engelstad was a "Nazi sympathizer," but this served to confirm it.

Second, if he was does it really matter?  Anyone trying to besmirch UND over this should be ignored and it doesn't imho negate the fact UND is a quality insitution, with a hockey tradition their fans should always be proud to celebrate.

I resent the fact that people continue to level this false accusation against a man who's no longer around to defend himself. It's just wrong. I can forgive the the average person who only knows what the media tells them about Engelstad, but for journalists to continue to do it is totally irresponsible.

[Slap Shot]

Ok, I'll accept the findings of the FBI that he wasn not, but wouldn't you agree that's it perhaps difficult to fault people for wrongly assuming he was a Nazi symapthizer given this info from your link?:

The controversy that spawned the FBI inquiry erupted in September 1988, when Gaming Control Board officials visited the Imperial Palace to examine Engelstad's private collection of Nazi memorabilia. Assembled in a secret "war room" near the hotel's antique auto collection were Nazi weapons, propaganda posters, flags, swastikas, murals and more than two dozen vehicles, each estimated at the time to be worth more than $1 million.

Within days of the control board's visit, the Review-Journal reported Engelstad had on April 20 in 1986 and 1988 hosted parties in that room celebrating Hitler's birthday. It was later revealed he had commissioned a painting of him wearing a Nazi uniform and produced "Hitler Was Right" bumper stickers.

btw, I had not known about any of this in detial until I read the link, so I truly had no true opinion on the matter previously.