DI vs. DII

[IowaBison]

Here is the pre-season Top 25 for I-AA football this year:

1. James Madison          15965/30707/10242

2. Furman                      3208/58282/11074

3. Eastern Washington    9924/7723/6182

4. Montana                    13026/42918/23352

5. Georgia Southern        15075/15854/15793

6. Western Kentucky        17811/40641/10124

7. Delaware                    21289/25098/18895

8. Northwestern State      10159/16609/10707

9. New Hampshire          15407/9236/3714

10. Northern Iowa          14167/34298/12080

11. Southern Illinois        21873/27033/9748

12. William & Mary          7645/11530/6711

13. Lehigh                      6686/71428/10683

14. Sam Houston State    13091/27925/6406

15. Harvard                    24969/95802/11110

16. Massachusetts          24062/17824/7618

17. Cal Poly                    18453/41958/6700

18. North Dakota State    11146/90000/11567

19. Jacksonville State      8930/10283/10303

20. Lafayette                  2300/26276/5558

21. Montana State          11841/22660/11892

22. Hampton                  5793/133793/7306

23. Appalachian State      14178/12915/14661

24. Maine                        11135/10578/6701

25. Hofstra                      13412/49453/3535

The first number behind each school is its enrollment, the second is the population of the city it's located in, the third is its average attendance for FB games.  These are 2003 figures.

Avg Enroll: 13,261

Avg Pop:    36,833

Avg Attend: 10,105

UND Enroll:  13,000

GF Pop:      54,000

UND Attend: 9,389

There are 120 schools with I-AA football.  13 of those schools sponsor DI hockey, about 11% of the division.  There are 4 schools in the top 25 with DI hockey, or about 16% of the poll.  That tells me that DI hockey could be more of an asset in a move to DI rather than a liabality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly how does having hockey help the Sioux?

are you that bad at statistics?

given your line of thinking the Bison should add hockey because then they'll likely be in the top 25?

[CoteauRinkRat]

given your line of thinking the Bison should add hockey because then they'll likely be in the top 25?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. If you look, they are in the top 25

2. He wasn't talking about the Bison, since they have already made their move to D I.

[bigmrg74]

There are 120 schools with I-AA football.  13 of those schools sponsor DI hockey, about 11% of the division.  There are 4 schools in the top 25 with DI hockey, or about 16% of the poll.  That tells me that DI hockey could be more of an asset in a move to DI rather than a liabality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, what you're saying is that UND will be in a much better position to excell in sports when they move to D1-AA because they have hockey??

[DamStrait]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do not feed the troll.

[IowaBison]

Do not feed the troll.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not out trolling, just pointing out the absence of logic in the post.

[DamStrait]

not out trolling, just pointing out the absence of logic in the post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? He merely pointed out that schools with DI hockey were better represented in the top 25 of DIAA football than they were in the balance. For that, and with no good reason that I could discern, you made a snide remark that did not contribute to the discussion of the topic. Your claim against trolling would seem to be rather weak.

[IowaBison]

No, he actually made an inference that UND might be more successful in DIAA football because it had hockey.

'That tells me that DI hockey could be more of an asset in a move to DI rather than a liabality.'

?

That makes no sense! And this is what I pointed out.

It is a point similar to the one made by bigmgr74, but apparently because he is not a fan of certain team he's not a troll, while I am?

That makes no sense either!

[star2city]

Not sure if this was ever posted previously, as it is old news, but Doug Fullerton, Big Sky Commissioner, had an interesting quote in the Missoula paper when Northern Colorado membership was accepted.

Fullerton added that although the Big Sky has never had more than nine members since its advent in 1963, more expansion couldn't be ruled out.

"This process was so thoughtful," he began. "We're not out there trying to grab any school that comes along, nor do we have any magic number of schools. If any other school shows itself to be interested, then I think they'll get the same thoughtful review."

So Fullerton is leaving the door open to more than nine BSC schools, which is without historical precedent. Secondly, the BSC wouldn't publicly jilt NDSU and SDSU for a second time, unless there really was some level of sincere interest. Again, for the 2008-9 year, three new schools will be in a two-division 12 team BSC: UND, NDSU, and SDSU.

[bincitysioux]

How does hockey help the Sioux? Because hockey at North Dakota is a cash cow. Yes, it is expensive to maintain, but it also generates enormous revenues. On top of that, it could help with scheduling during a transition (a noted problem at NDSU) because UND already has established, long-running relationships with many DI programs, thanks to hockey. I think I am pretty good with statistics. 16% of the top 25 I-AA football programs also support hockey. One of those schools is also a traditional power in basketball (UMASS). This tells me that DI hockey is not the liability or drain on a program that many people (mainly NDSU people, because they have never been able to support hockey) have suggested. This is especially true of a program that has had great historical success such as North Dakota. It generates both revenue and notoriety (seven DI national championships, the only DI championships obtained by a North Dakota institution).

As far as the demographic numbers of enrollment and population that I pointed out, that was just to show that the University and community is on par with the "top" programs of DI-AA. NDSU was quick to point out when they made the move that the school and Fargo had grown to point that it had outgrown Division II. I agree. And so has UND. If you knew anything about statistics IowaBison would know that 16% does not constitute "likely" being in the top 25, rather it shows that having hockey does not spell out doom for a program (when 16% of the top 25 support hockey, while only 11% of 120 I-AA schools support hockey).

Bigmrg74: I did not say that because UND has hockey it will excell in sports at the DI level. I just think that because UND has DI hockey, and a very good DI hockey program, that it will help rather than hurt throughout the transition period both in a monetary way, a notoriety way, and likely in a scheduling way. For example, we all know that NDSU and SDSU have recently signed contracts to play the U of M in basketball. If UND were DI, who do you think that a school like the U of M would rather bring in for a basketball or football game? The biggest state university from a bordering state that they have no history with (SDSU), the second biggest school from a bordering state that they have no history with (NDSU), or the biggest school from a bordering state in which they have a half-century long rivalry with that usually competes against them for conference and national championships at the highest level of play (UND)? In this scenario, NDSU would certainly be the odd man out. To the U of M, SDSU would have the advantage luring South Dakotans to the Twin Cities while UND would appeal to all North Dakotans, as well as hockey fans in general. Here's an idea for you NDSU fans that claim that DI hockey is a minor sport: when you're watching the Bison get their butts kicked at Williams Arena this fall, walk up to any person wearing a Gopher jersey and tell them that you think that college hockey is a minor sport that means nothing. Just see what happens. Here's an example of notoriety: My uncle (U of M alum) has season tickets for U of M basketball. His son currently attends NDSU He called me and said "you should come down this fall, we'll go to the game and watch our alma maters square off on the basketball court". I told him that was the bison coming, not the Fighting Sioux. This is yet another example of an out-of-state sports fan thinking of UND when it comes to college athletics in North Dakota. Why? Because of the greatest college hockey program in the country. Asset, Asset, Asset.

I normally reserve these rants for the message board belonging to the remedial school to our south down I-29. My original post was just meant to point out the University and the community of Grand Forks is, in my opionion, capable of supporting athletics at the next level.

[bincitysioux]

Not sure if this was ever posted previously, as it is old news, but Doug Fullerton, Big Sky Commissioner, had an interesting quote in the Missoula paper when Northern Colorado membership was accepted.

So Fullerton is leaving the door open to more than nine BSC schools, which is without historical precedent. Secondly, the BSC wouldn't publicly jilt NDSU and SDSU for a second time, unless there really was some level of sincere interest. Again, for the 2008-9 year, three new schools will be in a two-division 12 team BSC: UND, NDSU, and SDSU.

Honestly, the Big Sky does not excite me all that much at this point. Other than the Montana schools, it is a very far reaching conference and IF UND ever had the chance to join it would incur massive travel expenses, and receive little in return as far as establishing meaningful conference rivalries other than UM and MSU. While it would be wonderful to be a part of the Big Sky for having an all sports conference, unless Sac State/Portland State leave, or SDSU/NDSU are added, I don't honestly think that the Sky is a viable option, or for that matter a very attractive option. I think the best scenario is joining the Great West for football and the Horizon for all other sports. The Great West will welcome UND with arms wide open from the get-go. The Horizon is geographically the best fit for all sports, while the Great West has potential to be a solid football alliance if its current members remain. The Horizon opens up potential rivalry/recruiting areas in Wisconsin and Illinois. Plus, the Horizon League schools are generally located in northern tier cities that have an avid following for hockey (i.e. Green Bay, Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago) which may give UND an added attraction for the consideration of addition. The problem with the Horizon is that while it is within good proximity to UND (especially with two Wisconsin schools) is that it is an urban conference, which gives UND/GF a major strike against it. The next option is the Mid-Con/Great West. The mid-con is also an urban conference, but its urban cities are primarily located in the rural midwest and still opens recruiting in the Illinois and Indiana areas. Plus, Southern Utah is a Mid-Con member and could be an ally to UND/NDSU/SDSU if they all four play in the Great West. SDSU will have first chance at this conference (because of an emphasis on basketball), then NDSU or UND, probably in that order. Lastly, a new conference made up of independents. This is probably what is the likeliest scenario. A crummy, far reaching, conference that extends from the Dakotas, to Georgia, to California. However, I think unless the Big Sky adds all three Dakota schools, it is really not much better. My pipe-dream would be the Horizon/Great West.

[bigmrg74]

Bigmrg74:  I did not say that because UND has hockey it will excell in sports at the DI level.  I just think that because UND has DI hockey, and a very good DI hockey program, that it will help rather than hurt throughout the transition period both in a monetary way, a notoriety way, and likely in a scheduling way.  For example, we all know that NDSU and SDSU have recently signed contracts to play the U of M in basketball.  If UND were DI, who do you think that a school like the U of M would rather bring in for a basketball or football game?  The biggest state university from a bordering state that they have no history with (SDSU), the second biggest school from a bordering state that they have no history with (NDSU), or the biggest school from a bordering state in which they have a half-century long rivalry with that usually competes against them for conference and national championships at the highest level of play (UND)?  Here's an example of notoriety:  My uncle (U of M alum) has season tickets for U of M basketball.  His son currently attends NDSU  He called me and said "you should come down this fall, we'll go to the game and watch our alma maters square off on the basketball court".  I told him that was the bison coming, not the Fighting Sioux.  This is yet another example of an out-of-state sports fan thinking of UND when it comes to college athletics in North Dakota.  Why?  Because of the greatest college hockey program in the country.  Asset, Asset, Asset.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shucks man, I was just trying to get a rise out of the Bison fans who all wished that NDSU had hockey. Hell, I wish GVSU had Hockey, even if we would be stuck in the CHA. Hell, at least we would probably have the automatic bid and likely be hosting in Van Andel all the time.

[bincitysioux]

[star2city]

Honestly, the Big Sky does not excite me all that much at this point.  Other than the Montana schools, it is a very far reaching conference and IF UND ever had the chance to join it would incur massive travel expenses, and receive little in return as far as establishing meaningful conference rivalries other than UM and MSU.  While it would be wonderful to be a part of the Big Sky for having an all sports conference, unless Sac State/Portland State leave, or SDSU/NDSU are added, I don't honestly think that the Sky is a viable option, or for that matter a very attractive option.  I think the best scenario is joining the Great West for football and the Horizon for all other sports.  The Great West will welcome UND with arms wide open from the get-go.  The Horizon is geographically the best fit for all sports, while the Great West has potential to be a solid football alliance if its current members remain.  The Horizon opens up potential rivalry/recruiting areas in Wisconsin and Illinois.  Plus, the Horizon League schools are generally located in northern tier cities that have an avid following for hockey (i.e. Green Bay, Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago) which may give UND an added attraction for the consideration of addition.  The problem with the Horizon is that while it is within good proximity to UND (especially with two Wisconsin schools) is that it is an urban conference, which gives UND/GF a major strike against it.  The next option is the Mid-Con/Great West.  The mid-con is also an urban conference, but its urban cities are primarily located in the rural midwest and still opens recruiting in the Illinois and Indiana areas.  Plus, Southern Utah is a Mid-Con member and could be an ally to UND/NDSU/SDSU if they all four play in the Great West.  SDSU will have first chance at this conference (because of an emphasis on basketball), then NDSU or UND, probably in that order.  Lastly, a new conference made up of independents.  This is probably what is the likeliest scenario.  A crummy, far reaching, conference that extends from the Dakotas, to Georgia, to California.  However, I think unless the Big Sky adds all three Dakota schools, it is really not much better.  My pipe-dream would be the Horizon/Great West.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A division of NDSU-UND- SDSU-UNC-UM-MSU in the BSC would contain five rather intense UND rivals. It would be difficult to imagine a better DI scenario for rivalries. Travel to the other BSC division would not be as extensive, which would keep costs down. Schools in the Mid-Con and to a lesser extent the Horizon would not be natural rivals, so it would take years to generate the level of intensity. Agree that the Horizon would be good for recruiting and for a shared hockey/midwest sports culture, but until a Minnesota school bridges the DI gap (UMD or St Thomas to DI would be schools of interest to the Horizon because of their TV markets), it can not happen.

[bincitysioux]

[star2city]

I agree that that scenario would be wonderful with five intense rivals.  But do you really think that the UND/SDSU/NDSU are on the Big Sky's agenda?  If they were, I would have thought that NDSU at the very least would have gotten a campus visit from the BSC.  But they in fact received very little interest.  I would love to see your 12 team Big Sky, but I don't think it'll happen.  I really believe, the only chance that a Dakota school has, is for Sac St. or Port. St. to leave, and I don't see that happening either.  I really think that a GWFC schedule including trips to NDSU and SDSU (75 miles and 250 miles) along with a basketball schedule with two 600 mile trips to Wisconsin is better than a Big Sky travel schedule in which the shortest trip would be around 1100 miles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UND/NDSU/SDSU being on the Big Sky agenda is not as sure as death and taxes, but at this point the odds are much much greater than any other DI possiblity. Watch and see. The next 18 months may be interesting or agonzingly boring, depending on your patience level.

[bincitysioux]

I know that this is far fetched, but here is what a GWFC schedule for UND could look like in their FIRST year of transition:

-UM-DULUTH: Good draw at home against former NCC opponent. As long as Bubba is there, we have a friend. Hockey rival.

-AT NORTHERN COLORADO: Former NCC foe getting ready for the BSC season

-GVSU: Our new rivals, the second best team in DII football, getting ready for the GLIAC season.

-AT NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hockey school similar to us that has always been good to us, and we to them.

-BISMARCK-ST. MARY'S : Home game against an in-state school. Formerly coached by Dale Lennon.

-SDSU: Last meeting was in Brookings. They owe us this one.

-AT NDSU: Last meeting was in Grand Forks. We owe them this one.

-SCSU: Hockey rival. Fewer NCC teams looking for a game. Ambivelent to the DI move.

-AT CAL-DAVIS: We owe them a game after what we did to them in the 2001 playoffs.

-CAL-POLY: No Idea. I figure if we go to one Cal school, one has to come to us?

-AT SUU: No history. Maybe they can help get us into the Mid-Con.

Honestly, I think this would be a realistic conference schedule. Sure, I wouldn't be surprised if Crookston was on the schedule for the potato bowl, but that's alot better than Monana Tech, isn't it? The point is I think UND would have a more entertaining year than some other recent transitional schools. I doubt that we would have to bring in any NAIA, D-III, or non-scholarship I-AA programs.

[bincitysioux]

until a Minnesota school bridges the DI gap (UMD or St Thomas to DI would be schools of interest to the Horizon because of their TV markets), it can not happen.

I disagree, Grand Forks already has a superior TV market to UMD. City population has little to do with the size of the TV market. UND sporting events are broadcast across the state on cable and across the country on satellite. While both markets rely on hockey, GF is much bigger than Duluth in that area. UMD has to compete with U of M. UND has to compete with nobody. The Horizon League doesn't care about hockey, basketball is there money maker. My point is that several of the cities that hosts for the members of the Horizon Leauge are by nature, hockey cities. As far as the TV markets go, UND is in a unique position because they do broadcast select conference games that can be received anywhere in the U.S. via the FSSN. I would think that if UND were to seek membership in the Horizon that the ability to broadcast Horizon League games across the country would be a huge asset.

I will state one last time that although Big Sky membership provides conference membership for all sports, and also prestige for the university, I still think that a conference combination of the Horizon/Great West would be the best fit for UND both geographically and economically.

[CoteauRinkRat]

-BISMARCK-ST. MARY'S :  Home game against an in-state school.  Formerly coached by Dale Lennon.

That is the University of Mary, not St. Mary's. St. Mary's is a private catholic high school in Bismarck.

[IowaBison]

How does hockey help the Sioux?  Because hockey at North Dakota is a cash cow.  Yes, it is expensive to maintain, but it also generates enormous revenues.  On top of that, it could help with scheduling during a transition (a noted problem at NDSU) because UND already has established, long-running relationships with many DI programs, thanks to hockey.  I think I am pretty good with statistics.  16% of the top 25 I-AA football programs also support hockey.  One of those schools is also a traditional power in basketball (UMASS).  This tells me that DI hockey is not the liability or drain on a program that many people (mainly NDSU people, because they have never been able to support hockey) have suggested.  This is especially true of a program that has had great historical success such as North Dakota.  It generates both revenue and notoriety (seven DI national championships, the only DI championships obtained by a North Dakota institution).

As far as the demographic numbers of enrollment and population that I pointed out, that was just to show that the University and community is on par with the "top" programs of DI-AA.  NDSU was quick to point out when they made the move that the school and Fargo had grown to point that it had outgrown Division II.  I agree.  And so has UND.  If you knew anything about statistics IowaBison would know that 16% does not constitute "likely" being in the top 25, rather it shows that having hockey does not spell out doom for a program (when 16% of the top 25 support hockey, while only 11% of 120 I-AA schools support hockey).

Bigmrg74:  I did not say that because UND has hockey it will excell in sports at the DI level.  I just think that because UND has DI hockey, and a very good DI hockey program, that it will help rather than hurt throughout the transition period both in a monetary way, a notoriety way, and likely in a scheduling way.  For example, we all know that NDSU and SDSU have recently signed contracts to play the U of M in basketball.  If UND were DI, who do you think that a school like the U of M would rather bring in for a basketball or football game?  The biggest state university from a bordering state that they have no history with (SDSU), the second biggest school from a bordering state that they have no history with (NDSU), or the biggest school from a bordering state in which they have a half-century long rivalry with that usually competes against them for conference and national championships at the highest level of play (UND)?  In this scenario, NDSU would certainly be the odd man out.  To the U of M, SDSU would have the advantage luring South Dakotans to the Twin Cities while UND would appeal to all  North Dakotans, as well as hockey fans in general.  Here's an idea for you NDSU fans that claim that DI hockey is a minor sport:  when you're watching the Bison get their butts kicked at Williams Arena this fall, walk up to any person wearing a Gopher jersey and tell them that you think that college hockey is a minor sport that means nothing.  Just see what happens.  Here's an example of notoriety:  My uncle (U of M alum) has season tickets for U of M basketball.  His son currently attends NDSU  He called me and said "you should come down this fall, we'll go to the game and watch our alma maters square off on the basketball court".  I told him that was the bison coming, not the Fighting Sioux.  This is yet another example of an out-of-state sports fan thinking of UND when it comes to college athletics in North Dakota.  Why?  Because of the greatest college hockey program in the country.  Asset, Asset, Asset.

I normally reserve these rants for the message board belonging to the remedial school to our south down I-29.  My original post was just meant to point out the University and the community of Grand Forks is, in my opionion, capable of supporting athletics at the next level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

first of all, i know a hell of a lot about statistics (you obviously missed the lecture on causality)

what was missing in your previous post was the requisite commentary which is found in this one, what was lacking was any sophistication or logic

if hockey is such a cash cow, why did your athletic department run a half million dollar deficit for 2003-2004 after the waiver of women's hockey scholarships?

i do like your point about scheduling, though I doubt you'd be able to schedule more than two hockey (probably A-10) schools and I'm not to sure they'd be willing to travel to ND, what's in it for a school from New England or the Mid Atlantic to play a game in Grand Forks?

i've long thought that both NDSU and UND should be DI, but i honestly don't think that sioux fans have the financial ability to support hockey at the level they've grown accustomed to and successful programs in the other sports. In other words, I think UND is tapped out with regards to $$$.

if you're so sure of your point, i say call up buning and make him aware of your points and don't forget to mention to UND's stat department that your the world's next snedecor, your a shoe-in for the job being able to find a percentage and all.

[IowaBison]

UND/NDSU/SDSU being on the Big Sky agenda is not as sure as death and taxes, but at this point the odds are much much greater than any other DI possiblity. Watch and see. The next 18 months may be interesting or agonzingly boring, depending on your patience level.

I agree with this (though a little less on the UND part). Even with the addition of UNC, the Big Sky is relatively unstable primarily because Sac State has such a weak program, and PSU isn't much better.

I think it's plausible that as NDSU and SDSU approach full division I status that the Big Sky will reappear on the radar screen with UND (and others) receiving that same form letter they got last fall save changes to the date and a reference to UNC.

I wonder if the majority of the presidents wouldn't 'exchange' NDSU/SDSU for Sac State and Portland State. If that happened I could definitely see UND being invited the next year given that they were in the transition process.

[The Sicatoka]

i do like your point about scheduling, though I doubt you'd be able to schedule more than two hockey (probably A-10) schools and I'm not to sure they'd be willing to travel to ND, what's in it for a school from New England or the Mid Atlantic to play a game in Grand Forks?

Recent (since 2001) UND Mens Hockey home non-conference games v. DIs:

Niagara

Canisius

Boston College

Yale

Northeastern

Harvard

Recent scheduled (non-NCAA tourney) non-conference road games v. DIs:

Yale

Princeton

Maine

Boston College

Northeastern

Miami of Ohio

Michigan State

New Hampshire

I see a lot of "Ivy" in that list plus a non-WCHA Big Ten-ner* and the newest member of the ACC.

And that's not looking at the DI womens schedule for DIs: Quinnipiac, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, Boston College.

What's in it in coming to play in GF? Playing in arguably the greatest college arena in the country.

* I left out M-WCHA and W-WCHA Big Tens and DIs: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State, and Denver.

[The Sicatoka]

Millner brushed aside a question about the Big Sky possibly expanding east, to include North Dakota State and South Dakota State.

"No specific discussions took place," she said. "We were looking for the best fit, and we truly looked at a number of factors. Certainly geography and travel were major parts of the component."

It seems that in the BSC dialect any time the word "Dakota" comes up the words "geography and travel" soon follow.

[bigmrg74]

-GVSU: Our new rivals, the second best team in DII football, getting ready for the GLIAC season.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, we traveled up there last year. Me thinks you owe us a home game, especially if we're going to be taking a hit in our SSI by playing a transitional program.

[dakotadan]

One point that I haven't seen anyone bring up is the fact that hockey is such an east coast based sport. Hockey has definately exposed UND to many people east of North Dakota. Being in the Big Sky would expose UND more to the west coast, something I would think the administration would like to do. Being in the Great West for FB would also do this but not to the extend that an all sport conference would.

Even though the BSC has been so tight lipped about discussing the Dakota schools publically, I could almost guarantee that there has been much in depth discussion about the schools. I feel that UNC was added now to solidify the conference incase a school decides to split, but is taking it slower with further additions. As the 'SUs get closer to being post season eligable, I truely think that the BSC will be more open about the possibility of the 'SUs and possibly UND becoming part of the conference.

I also would think that even though those in charge are not able to say too much publically, they know more than what they can say. I am sure there have been some behind door discussions and private phone calls between the higher-ups that would at least give some sort of feeling to what may happen in the future. Only time will tell.

[dakotadan]

I also agree that having hockey would be a positive in a move to DI. I don't believe it would have any effect as to our competativeness in other sports. I do however agree that the connections that UND has in place with DI programs would definately help out in scheduling during a transition, something that would be very important until becoming a full member of a conference.