DI vs. DII

[bincitysioux]

If UND goes D-I, we'll end up with a bunch of games against second-tier D-I competition. With the exception of NDSU and SDSU (which will still be second-tier D-I competition), these games will be against schools that most UND students haven't heard of or don't care about. Who cares if we play Coppin State, where the he!! is Coppin State anyway?? (Maryland, BTW). What percent of UND's student body comes from places like Maine, Idaho, and many other second tier D-I places? Where is the identification with these schools, the ties that really make you want to beat the snot out of them? And to top all this off, its going to cost the school far more money to make longer trips to play against this so-called superior competition. Any games against the big names will be most likely getting our butts kicked on their home courts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and believe it or not I do respect yours. Its not like this is a cut and dried, one way is without question better than the other issue. However, if I had the choice, I would choose to pursue the best available regional D-II competition. It costs less, its entertaining, and you're playing against schools that the UND student body identifies with. Mankato, St. Cloud, Duluth, heck, even Minot St, Valley City, Dickinson St, these are places the UND student body comes from! Furthermore, the state of North Dakota and other areas surrounding UND have supported D-II athletics well. They won't support D-I (in terms of generation of athletes). All things considered, I think the demographics and geography of UND best fit D-II. Its more than just the school itself, its the entire region.

I would much rather prefer playing second-tier DI schools like NDSU/SDSU than the NAIA schools that litter our basketball schedules now. The "best available regional DII competition" is pretty poor outside of the NCC. The best available competition is now DI. I would rather be playing NDSU and SDSU than Northern St. and U of Mary.

Support of UND goes beyond the student body. I live about 100 miles from both GF and Fargo. If I were a casual North Dakota sports fan, with no ties to either UND or NDSU, wanting to go to the city for a weekend and the choices on a given saturday were basketball games between UND vs. Bemidji St. or NDSU vs. Weber St, I have to believe that NDSU/Weber is gonna win out almost every time.

[ecbrevik]

Support of UND goes beyond the student body.  I live about 100 miles from both GF and Fargo.  If I were a casual North Dakota sports fan, with no ties to either UND or NDSU, wanting to go to the city for a weekend and the choices on a given saturday were basketball games between UND vs. Bemidji St. or NDSU vs. Weber St, I have to believe that NDSU/Weber is gonna win out almost every time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't necessarily agree. If you were from northern or central Minnesota, there is a good chance you'd rather see UND vs Bemidji state (even if you weren't an alum of either). Same might also be true particularly of people in NE North Dakota. In a 100 mile radius, I bet a lot of people would choose two regional programs over a regional school playing someone that half the region has never heard of, even if the two regional schools were in a lower division.

Its hard to market a game to casual fans as a whole when the opponent has no name recognition. As an example, I've been to basketball games at Iowa State. Bear in mind that basketball was the big sport at Iowa State, at least during my days there, the basketball team was nationally competative and crowds generally were good. Games against schools like Coppin State, Maryland Eastern Shore, etc typically were not sale outs. No name recognition. On the other hand, games against Northern Iowa and Drake, house was packed to the rafters! Many times those Northern Iowa and Drake teams weren't any better than the other teams we played in the non-conference schedule, shoot, often, the teams that drew poorer attendance were actually better than Northern Iowa or Drake. But people in central Iowa identify with Northern Iowa and Drake, and they turned out to see those games.

Want a football example? Crowds were huge for Iowa State vs Northern Iowa football games (a Big 12 team usually beating on a IAA team), bigger than they were when Wyoming came to Ames, for example. Wyoming puts out a better football product than Northern Iowa, they are a step higher in the football food chain. But people responded better to the regional rivalry than to the "superior opponent".

The novelty of being D-I might bring the casual out in the early days to watch a team like Weber State. But long term, you have 2 main selling points as an athletic program:

1) name recognition (very few name schools will ever come to GF), and

2) regional rivalries, teams that people in your 100 mile radius CARE about

If UND goes D-I, you'll have regional rivalries in NDSU and SDSU. Montana and Montana State might be decent regional rivalries, but that is much stronger out west than in the Red River Valley. The valley tends to be more concerned with Minnesota rivalries. We probably won't get U of Minnesota too often (at least in GF), but we can get UMD, Mankato, SCSU, Winona, etc.

[Bison Pride]

I know this is a football forum, but I gotta voice my opinion. - So basically what your trying to say is that a broader DI schedule like NDSU and SDSU have would probably have less interest to Sioux fans than your current, more regional, DII schedule?

2005-2006 SDSU Men's Basketball

Nov 13 @ Kentucky (Guardians Classic)

Nov 14 Wofford/Lipscomb @ Lexigton, KY (Guardians Classic)

Nov 18 @ Illinois

Nov 24, Southeast Missouri State

Nov 30, Cal-State Fullerton

Dec 3, Tennesee State

Dec 6, Wisconsin-Milwaukee

Dec 8, @ Nebraska

Dec 10, Denver

Dec 12, UMKC

Dec 20, Manhatten, @ Sioux Falls

Dec 23,@ Minnesota

Dec 28, Butler

Jan 2, @ Montana State

Jan 7 Utah Valley State

Jan 14, @NDSU

Jan 16, SW Minnesota State

Jan 25, @ Idaho State

Jan 28, @ Utah State

Feb 2, @ Utah Valley State

Feb 6, IPFW

Feb 11, Texas-Pan American

Feb 18, NDSU

Feb 22, @IPFW

Feb 25, @ Texas-Pan American

Mar 3, @ San Diego State

Mar 5, @ Cal State Fullerton

Plus to be scheduled at Central Florida, and at Marquette.

2006-2006 NDSU Men's BB schedule (tentative)

at Minnesota

at Colorado State

at Idaho State

at Drake tourney (2 games)

at Idaho

at Montana State tourney (2 games)

at Kansas State

at Utah Valley State

at Wisconsin

at UW Green Bay

at South Dakota State

at Indiana Purdue Fort Wayne

HOME:

HAMLINE UNIVERSITY

EASTERN MICHIGAN

MAINE

IDAHO STATE

MANHATTAN

UTAH VALLEY STATE

SOUTH DAKOTA STATE

IDAHO

INDIANA PURDUE FORT WAYNE

MAYVILLE STATE

DENVER

MISSOURI - KANSAS CITY

I've seen the Sioux men's BB schedule, and given the 2 sides of the argument, I'd have to go with bincitysioux. Besides if you were a coach trying to sell a potential recruit on your school, who's schedule would you have a better chance with. There have been too many outstanding young athlete's who have had to leave the state to find a higher level of competion than what North Dakota schools could offer them.

Just my opinion.

[ecbrevik]

I know this is a football forum, but I gotta voice my opinion. - So basically what your trying to say is that a broader DI schedule like NDSU and SDSU have would probably have less interest to Sioux fans than your current, more regional, DII schedule?

I've seen the Sioux men's BB schedule, and given the 2 sides of the argument, I'd have to go with bincitysioux.  Besides if you were a coach trying to sell a potential recruit on your school, who's schedule would you have a better chance with.  There have been too many outstanding young athlete's who have had to leave the state to find a higher level of competion than what North Dakota schools could offer them.

Just my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand your side of the arguement, and don't debate that some people would rather see the D-I schedule. I just don't think that is a universal sentiment. Something else I would note, there isn't a single home NDSU game next year that I, as a sports fan with a casual interest in NDSU sports, would give 2 cents to go see if I were still living in the Red River Valley. Same holds true for the SDSU schedule. There are certainly teams on those schedules I would like to see, including Kentucky, Illinois, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. But notice that in each and every case, NDSU and SDSU visit those schools. Getting schools like that to actually come to NDSU or SDSU is going to be next to impossible. To be honest, I don't really care about schools like Montana and Montana State in basketball, they are also-rans. Watching them in football would be neat, but that's it. Just as you noted, that's my personal opinion. Doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong in this case, its simply an opinion.

However, my greatest concern about a possible UND move to D-I is less about competition than it is about money. Lets face it, institutions of higher learning in North Dakota are not blessed with great funding from the state. If anything, they are already underfunded when compared to other schools that are supposed to be in their peer groups. A move to D-I athletics is going to cost money, to the tune of seven figures per year. I seriously doubt that revenues will keep pace with increased costs, a doubt that is supported by the experiences of other schools moving up to D-I. So where is the extra money going to come from to support D-I athletics? I haven't seen anyone provide a viable answer to that yet. If the money has to come from the universities general budget, which academic programs / student support programs / etc. suffer to benefit athletics?

One final point in all this, I've heard a lot of gripping here about smaller, underfunded programs moving into D-II and diluting the product. The thing I find funny here, is that the big D-I powers view moves by schools like NDSU, SDSU, and if we do it, UND in much the same way. People here seem very willing to run from a diluted D-II product so they can become the diluting part of the D-I product.

[ecbrevik]

Maybe I should explain a little bit about where my perspective on all this comes from. I stated in my earlier post that I wouldn't pay 2 cents to see the teams on NDSU and SDSU's home basketball schedules next year. Maybe I'm a little spoiled compared to some in North Dakota when it comes to D-I athletics. I went to graduate school at Iowa State University, a D-I school in a major (Big 12) conference. Iowa State was very competative in basketball when I was there, winning multiple Big 12 regular season and tourny titles during those years and usually being competative (or at least going into the season thinking they would be) for such titles in others. I watched programs like Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and a number of name non-conference teams come through on an annual basis. While ISU wasn't nearly as successful in football, teams like Nebraska and Oklahoma came through Ames during National Championship years, and perennial powers like Kansas State, Colorado, and Texas made regular visits. When I think D-I, I think Big 12, and quite frankly the schools listed on the home schedules for NDSU and SDSU just aren't very impressive.

From a competition standpoint, I think it comes down to the following: would you rather be a high end program and watch winning teams in D-II, or likely be an also ran in D-I? The football programs MIGHT become respected in D-IAA, but keep in mind a lot of current powers with established D-IAA connections and traditions will have other ideas. In any and every other sport, from basketball on down, every team at UND would go into the season knowing they have an incredibly slim chance of making the national tournament. Win the conference tourny or your out, not like D-II where multiple NCC teams from many sports make it to the "big-time". And if you ever do get to the national tourny such as in basketball, its most likely that you are a one and done snack for a #1 or 2 seed.

But as I said in my previous post, the biggest issue for me is money. Look at what is required, in terms of dollars, to be competative in D-I sports. Many times more than UND currently spends. Where is the money going to come from (it won't magically appear)? Is a fan base used to competing for national titles out of one of the top leagues in D-II going to be happy hoping to just be competative for a league title in a second-rate D-I league? Make no mistake about it, in D-I Big Sky is a second rate league, a league that doesn't put teams into NCAA showcase events unless they win the league post season tourny. In basketball for example, a "one bid only" league. You guys are basically begging to join a D-I equivalent of the NSIC, a league you've been ripping on. An NCC equivalent at D-I is Big 12, Big 10, SEC, ACC, something like that. So all this extra money is poured into D-I athletics so UND can become a second-rate D-I program, while this is happening what other part of the school is going to suffer financially on the alter of athletics?

This isn't a rant against athletics, I am a sports fan, but everything has to be put into perspective as well. To this point, the only really decent arguement I've seen for a move to D-I is the potential competition. From my perspective, this issue goes far beyond just athletic competition, this issue is much bigger than "who would you rather play in basketball or football?". It has to, we are talking about an entire university, not just an athletic department. The issue is, given the demographics of the region, the geography of the region, the funding levels of the institution, along with potential available competition, what is the best place for UND? When I look at demographics, geography, and funding levels, those all say "D-II" to me without question. I'm also not convinced D-I is a better place to be from a competition perspective (the ONLY firm improvement I've seen is the chance to play NDSU again), but even if I concede the competetion point I see many other reasons not to go D-I.

[Bison Pride]

Okay, then based on that logic I would say that that NDSU is better off being DI across the board, and UND is better at just having DI hockey. Maybe in the long run that is what's best for the state. As an alumnus of NDSU and a fan of all their sports, not just football, I am excited about the changes, welcome the new teams, and I'm willing to pay a little more for the privledge. As far as I know, and I'm not an expert, we are at, or ahead or the projections and goals we have set for ourselves. It says a lot about the type of people we have in North Dakota when we can have 2 institutions of this stature, with only 650,000 people.

[ecbrevik]

Okay, then based on that logic I would say that that NDSU is better off being DI across the board, and UND is better at just having DI hockey.  Maybe in the long run that is what's best for the state.  As an alumnus of NDSU and a fan of all their sports, not just football, I am excited about the changes, welcome the new teams, and I'm willing to pay a little more for the privledge.  As far as I know, and I'm not an expert, we are at, or ahead or the projections and goals we have set for ourselves.  It says a lot about the type of people we have in North Dakota when we can have 2 institutions of this stature, with only 650,000 people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will admit I also have serious concerns about a state of only 650,000 supporting 2 D-I programs. So NDSU already being D-I is in fact part of my concerns about making a move up for UND.

[bincitysioux]

When I look at demographics, geography, and funding levels, those all say "D-II" to me without question.

I-AA FOOTBALL TOP 25

Avg Enroll: 13,261

Avg Pop: 36,833

Avg Attend: 10,105

UND Enroll: 13,000

GF Pop: 54,000

UND Attend: 9,389

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UND Athletic Budget: $7,350,852

Avg. Budget of DI-AA schools with DI hockey: $13,348,209

Avg. Budget of "regional" DI-AA schools: $6,930,870

*the "regional" schools I looked at are NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, Montana St., Idaho St., and Southern Utah.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I-AA SCHOOLS WITH HOCKEY

Total enrollment: 11,833

City Population: 94,693 (If you throw out Northeastern in Boston it is 51,120)

Avg Football Attendance: 8,061

Avg Hockey Attendance: 3,036

UND Enrollment: 13,000

GF Population: 54,000

Avg UND FB Attendance: 9,389

Avg UND Hky Attendence: 10,870...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UND drew 9,389 per football game in '04, seventh best in DII. Two schools ranked ahead of them (NDSU and SDSU) are in transition so actually you could say UND was 5th. The average for DII football attendance is only 3,685. The average for DI-AA is 7,666. North Dakota already draws better than most I-AA schools.

For men's basketball, in '04 UND drew 2550 per game, 11th in the nation in DII. Throw out SDSU (#1 DII Attendance), and that again puts us in the top 10. Average DII basketball attendance was 864. Average DI was 5,154. I know UND is closer to the 864, but c'mon, that sounds pretty meager to me.

In '04, UND hockey was 2nd in the nation in attendance, 10,870.

Last point, average enrollment of DII schools is about 4,300, while enrollment of schools with I-AA football is a little over 10,000. I believe UND's enrollment is right around 13,000.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The demographics of UND are much more similar to Mid/Lower level DI institutions than they are to DII.

Geography is by no means an asset, but NDSU, SDSU, and UNC would provide immediate historical rivals along with the possibility of the Montana schools and UWGB and UW-Milwaukee.

Funding will certainly be much tougher. Although UND's budget is significantly less than I-AA schools with hockey, it is already similar to our "regional" I-AA schools. Alot of money would need to be raised, of course, but I think/hope it could be done.

[bincitysioux]

.....An NCC equivalent at D-I is Big 12, Big 10, SEC, ACC, something like that.

This is not true anymore. 4 teams have left within the last 5 or 6 years. 3 of them were usually one of the top four teams in the NCC year in and year out. 2 of them were usually one of the top teams in entire DII year in an year out. The NCC was extremely lucky to add UMD, but will not be so lucky again anytime soon. The gap between the NCC and the NSIC is as narrow as it has ever been, and I don't see that gap widening any time soon. I guess it is nice for us though, we can play the role of playground bully, beating up on the little kids.

Sure, the Big Sky, Great West, Horizon, or Mid-Con aren't the biggest, best, or most glamorous conferences in DI. But I don't see an "NCC Round Up" on CSTV either.

[bisonguy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UND Athletic Budget: $7,350,852

Avg. Budget of DI-AA schools with DI hockey: $13,348,209

Avg. Budget of "regional" DI-AA schools: $6,930,870

*the "regional" schools I looked at are NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, Montana St., Idaho St., and Southern Utah.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bincity,

it should be noted that three of the "regional" DI-AA budgets your are using in your average are schools still in transition to DI, and are increasing in the neighborhood of $1MM a year to get closer to the budgets of the other schools.

[IowaBison]

bincity,

it should be noted that three of the "regional" DI-AA budgets your are using in your average are schools still in transition to DI, and are increasing in the neighborhood of $1MM a year to get closer to the budgets of the other schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In light of that, I can't see how UND could consider making the move without the expectation of spending somewhere in the vacinity of $12 million per year (in 2005 dollars) on athletics. That puts the Sioux around $4 million off, with not much room for growth.

(Maybe that's where Kupchella & Company came up with their $70 million endowment idea? 70x.05=3.5, almost enough to cover the gap)

Go Cyclones!

[UND Fan]

I-AA FOOTBALL TOP 25

Avg Enroll: 13,261

Avg Pop: 36,833

Avg Attend: 10,105

UND Enroll: 13,000

GF Pop: 54,000

UND Attend: 9,389

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UND Athletic Budget: $7,350,852

Avg. Budget of DI-AA schools with DI hockey: $13,348,209

Avg. Budget of "regional" DI-AA schools: $6,930,870

*the "regional" schools I looked at are NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Montana, Montana St., Idaho St., and Southern Utah.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I-AA SCHOOLS WITH HOCKEY

Total enrollment: 11,833

City Population: 94,693 (If you throw out Northeastern in Boston it is 51,120)

Avg Football Attendance: 8,061

Avg Hockey Attendance: 3,036

UND Enrollment: 13,000

GF Population: 54,000

Avg UND FB Attendance: 9,389

Avg UND Hky Attendence: 10,870...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UND drew 9,389 per football game in '04, seventh best in DII. Two schools ranked ahead of them (NDSU and SDSU) are in transition so actually you could say UND was 5th. The average for DII football attendance is only 3,685. The average for DI-AA is 7,666. North Dakota already draws better than most I-AA schools.

For men's basketball, in '04 UND drew 2550 per game, 11th in the nation in DII. Throw out SDSU (#1 DII Attendance), and that again puts us in the top 10. Average DII basketball attendance was 864. Average DI was 5,154. I know UND is closer to the 864, but c'mon, that sounds pretty meager to me.

In '04, UND hockey was 2nd in the nation in attendance, 10,870.

Last point, average enrollment of DII schools is about 4,300, while enrollment of schools with I-AA football is a little over 10,000. I believe UND's enrollment is right around 13,000.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The demographics of UND are much more similar to Mid/Lower level DI institutions than they are to DII.

Geography is by no means an asset, but NDSU, SDSU, and UNC would provide immediate historical rivals along with the possibility of the Montana schools and UWGB and UW-Milwaukee.

Funding will certainly be much tougher. Although UND's budget is significantly less than I-AA schools with hockey, it is already similar to our "regional" I-AA schools. Alot of money would need to be raised, of course, but I think/hope it could be done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't take this as a negative question but I am curious, how do you think the added money could be raised?

[bincitysioux]

bincity,

it should be noted that three of the "regional" DI-AA budgets your are using in your average are schools still in transition to DI, and are increasing in the neighborhood of $1MM a year to get closer to the budgets of the other schools.

Correct, and the reason that I included those schools is because I wanted to see roughly what the immediate impact would be while in transition, how much of an increase would be needed from the very early goings.

[ecbrevik]

bincity,

it should be noted that three of the "regional" DI-AA budgets your are using in your average are schools still in transition to DI, and are increasing in the neighborhood of $1MM a year to get closer to the budgets of the other schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A better comparison of the UND athletic budget to the "regional" schools would be UND budget minus hockey budget, since none of the schools you listed field hockey and hockey is a major part of the UND athletic budget (probably one reason the IAA hockey schools have much larger budgets than your regional schools). Also, you should be comparing UND's budget to full-fledged I-AA schools, not schools in transition. If you want to get a feel for what the transistion would look like, then you should have 3 groupings: UND, transitition schools, full I-AA schools.

You make those changes and then compare UND now to where we would need to get, suddenly the numbers are not nearly as close. Once again, we are going to have to raise money in the range of 7 figures annually to get to D-IAA. A blanket statement of "I think we could do it" isn't worth much. Where does the money come from? What are these great revenue streams that are going to open up to support an all D-I program?

[ecbrevik]

UND drew 9,389 per football game in '04, seventh best in DII. Two schools ranked ahead of them (NDSU and SDSU) are in transition so actually you could say UND was 5th. The average for DII football attendance is only 3,685. The average for DI-AA is 7,666. North Dakota already draws better than most I-AA schools.

For men's basketball, in '04 UND drew 2550 per game, 11th in the nation in DII. Throw out SDSU (#1 DII Attendance), and that again puts us in the top 10. Average DII basketball attendance was 864. Average DI was 5,154. I know UND is closer to the 864, but c'mon, that sounds pretty meager to me.

In '04, UND hockey was 2nd in the nation in attendance, 10,870.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bear in mind that part of that good attendance is the success of the programs. People show up at UND sports because they get to see winning or at least competative teams pretty much across the board. When winning percentage goes down, attendance often does too. I have no doubt that attendance would be good initially following a move to IAA regardless of performance because of the novelty of being D-I. If the teams didn't rapidly improve to levels of success approximating those they currently enjoy you could also expect corresponding decreases in attendance.

Excellent football attendence, but for a team that is an annual national title contender in recent years. Would attendence be as good for a team with little to no hope of contending? As a sport, football would probably be our best bet outside of hockey in terms of having a successful program, but if the wins didn't start coming I think attendence could very possibly drop after a few years. And its unlikely UND will ever spend the kind of money on football that the D-IAA big boys, like Montana, do, because hockey is king in GF. Bringing UND football up to Montana levels of funding would involve increases of something like $2-3 million in the football budget ALONE, and then you STILL have to find big bucks for the other promoted programs. So football is unlikely to be funded at a high level, compared to D-IAA big boys.

Good basketball attendence, but it needs to be doubled to get up around D-I average. Mens basketball has been OK, but not exactly outstanding at UND historically. Its one revenue sport I could see falling off dramatically at the D-I level. Will attendence double, or even hold steady for that matter, if the team is not competative? I have a hard time envisioning much revenue increase here unless the team has unexpected successes at a higher level of play. However, regardless of their success or lack thereof, the expenses will increase significantly.

Hockey of course will take care of itself as its already D-I, but keep in mind you're talking about a tradition filled, highly successful program in a hockey crazy part of the country. I don't think you can project outstanding D-I hockey attendence to mean other sports would also get good attendence just because the other sports are brought up to D-I as well. No other sport at UND is likely to ever approach the success of hockey, at any level.

[bincitysioux]

Don't take this as a negative question but I am curious, how do you think the added money could be raised?

Credit card loans? Honestly, I'm no expert in where money for university athletics come from, so I cannot speculate. Many other members of this board have much better ideas than I on how to raise money. I assume the bulk of it would have to come from alumni. I have to believe that raising our level of competition would inspire alot of alumni to give more, and more casual sports fans in GF to buy more single game tickets. I give to UND now, I would give more in a heartbeat if it meant I could go to a game IN Grand Forks against Montana, Butler, or Green Bay. Mayville and VCSU don't make my wallet jump out of my pants.

[ecbrevik]

Credit card loans?

[ecbrevik]

I-AA FOOTBALL TOP 25

Avg Enroll: 13,261

Avg Pop: 36,833

Avg Attend: 10,105

UND Enroll: 13,000

GF Pop: 54,000

UND Attend: 9,389

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I-AA SCHOOLS WITH HOCKEY

Total enrollment: 11,833

City Population: 94,693 (If you throw out Northeastern in Boston it is 51,120)

Avg Football Attendance: 8,061

Avg Hockey Attendance: 3,036

UND Enrollment: 13,000

GF Population: 54,000

Avg UND FB Attendance: 9,389

Avg UND Hky Attendence: 10,870...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last point, average enrollment of DII schools is about 4,300, while enrollment of schools with I-AA football is a little over 10,000. I believe UND's enrollment is right around 13,000.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The demographics of UND are much more similar to Mid/Lower level DI institutions than they are to DII.

[Bison Pride]

So you can't make it to any of the games anyway?

[bincitysioux]

ecbrevik,

You make excellent points, and I respect your opinion as you obviously put alot of thought into your argument. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally, as someone who lives in this area and attends alot of UND events, I simply am not happy with the state of the NCC, DII as a whole, and the level of competition that we have been/will be competing against (especially in basketball). I just think that our fine university has recently outgrown the league in which it fit so comfortably in for so many years.

[star2city]

In this whole discussion, there are a number of intangibles that should factor into the decision. Most of the DII schools that have transitioned to DI are urban commuter-type schools that did not have a significant fan base. Just as important as conference affiliation is how appropriate the new DI conference is to the reclassifying schools.

For example, for UND, being

- a DI independent would likely be disastrous financially and for fan support.

- a member of the Mid-Continent conference, would not be very attractive, as most schools in that conference have little in common with UND, are not in areas with significant alumni, or in areas with target student populations. From a marketing standpoint, just the name “Mid-Continent” and its reputation as the conference of last resort has negative connotations North Dakota and UND do not need to further associate with.

- a member of the Horizon conference, would be somewhat attractive, but it lacks traditional rivals. It would give UND a lot more visibility in the urban Midwest and would probably be the best option for athlete recruitment. Having membership in the Horizon would be like having a free (but small) marketing campaign. Without a travel partner school in Minnesota, this is not going to happen.

- a member of the Big Sky conference is in many ways the most attractive, even with it relatively low competitiveness in basketball.. A 12-team league would have traditional rivals (NDSU, SDSU, UNC, Mont, MSU), be attractive to many alumni (particularly in Denver, Phoenix-Flagstaff, Salt Lake, and Portland), interest western ND even more, and help market UND in fast-growing western states. IMO, being in the western “Big Sky” rather than mid-western conference would reorient the outside perception of UND. The term “Big Sky” although associated with ‘remoteness’ is also associated with pioneering, openness, and adventure. Those are the exact qualities UND needs to foster in its academics, research, and community. IF a Big Sky bid is coming in two years to UND, NDSU, and SDSU (as some expect), the cost/benefits needs to include cultural, vision, and perception issues, and not just strictly financial effects.

One last note: Missoula and Bozeman are Big Sky cities that are really making strides economically. (Flagstaff, Ogden, Spokane/Cheney, and to a lesser extent,, Pocatello, aren't doing too bad either.) Athletic conferences are almost as much a league of cities as a conference of universities. Having Grand Forks and Fargo in the league of Big Sky cities would further associate the Red River Valley and North Dakota with progressive leadership.

[nodakvindy]

Star2city,

Some interesting thoughts on potential conference affiliations. I think that you romanticize the Big Sky somewhat and underestimate the potential of the Mid-Con.

I'm not sure that the makeup of schools is that different in the two conferences. In the Big Sky, only Montana and Montana St. truly fill the role of state flagships. Also, in terms of rivals, I think it is really a stretch to call them that, since we have had minimal contact in the last 30 years.

I also think the reorienting you speak of is unrealistic. The Big Sky schools are truly western, Mountain or Pacific time zones, located in the Rockies or west Coast. They have little in common with the eastern Dakotas, where UND, NDSU and SDSU are all located.

Now to the Mid-Con. I think this league could have great potential with a few moves of existing teams and a couple of extra moves from DII. Centenary is leaving soon and Southern Utah will continue to look for a more geographically appropriate league (likely the Big Sky).

The following set up could fare quite nicely

West - UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, Oral Roberts

East - Chicago St., IUPUI, W. Illinois, Oakland, IUPU-Ft. Wayne (current independent) and possibly Northern Kentucky of Grand Valley St.

Grand Valley would be a nice rival for Oakland, Northern Kentucky would bring the Cincinnati market.

If you could get Grand Valley, you would even have six football schools and could have a Mid-Con football league.

Such a grouping of schools would give the league stability it has never had and lead to a brighter future. You could even do like the Horizon league and change the name to rid the demons of the Mid-Con. Perhaps the Heartland Conference or Great America Conference.

Finally the current Mid-Con has swimming, the one non-revenue sport where UND could possibly be competitive.

[star2city]

Some interesting thoughts on potential conference affiliations.  I think that you romanticize the Big Sky somewhat and underestimate the potential of the Mid-Con.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand your points on both counts, but:

I'm not sure that the makeup of schools is that different in the two conferences.  In the Big Sky, only Montana and Montana St. truly fill the role of state flagships. Also, in terms of rivals, I think it is really a stretch to call them that, since we have had minimal contact in the last 30 years.

I also think the reorienting you speak of is unrealistic.  The Big Sky schools are truly western, Mountain or Pacific time zones, located in the Rockies or west Coast.  They have little in common with the eastern Dakotas, where UND, NDSU and SDSU are all located.

As far as the Big Sky, even in its prime it had only four flagship schools (MSU, UM, Idaho, and Nevada). By adding UND, NDSU, & SDSU, it could have five flagship schools. Extending over three time zones is non-ideal, but a divisional breakdown with Central/Mountain and Mountain/Pacific schools limits the issue. Sac State, with their new facilities being built, has no intention of staying IAA anyway. Marketing is about romanticizing and if the Big Sky is bold enough, its best days can be ahead of it, rather than in the 1980s.

Even though UND has had limited athletic interaction with UM or MSU, there is more passion crossing the Mont-NDak border than about the ND-SD border. Montanans tell their North Dakota jokes, while South Dakotans are the butt of jokes by Nebraskans and Iowans. Probably because of east-west transportation links from the Twin Cities to Seattle and because a high fraction of Montanans descended from North Dakotas, the potential for natural athletic rivalries are high (for the same reason that UND / U of Minn has an intense rivalry.) There is no antipathy in so-called USD/UND or NDSU/SDSU “rivalries”.

This thread on a Montana Grizzly board shows how its fans view UND as a “neighbor” and a potential rival.

http://www.egriz.com/GrizBoard/viewtopic.php?p=82395&

IMO, there would never be a discussion like that among fans of any school in the MidCon or Horizon.

[star2city]

Now to the Mid-Con.  I think this league could have great potential with a few moves of existing teams and a couple of extra moves from DII.  Centenary is leaving soon and Southern Utah will continue to look for a more geographically appropriate league (likely the Big Sky). 

The following set up could fare quite nicely

West - UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, Oral Roberts

East - Chicago St., IUPUI, W. Illinois, Oakland, IUPU-Ft. Wayne (current independent) and possibly Northern Kentucky of Grand Valley St.

Grand Valley would be a nice rival for Oakland, Northern Kentucky would bring the Cincinnati market.

If you could get Grand Valley, you would even have six football schools and could have a Mid-Con football league.

Such a grouping of schools would give the league stability it has never had and lead to a brighter future.  You could even do like the Horizon league and change the name to rid the demons of the Mid-Con.  Perhaps the Heartland Conference or Great America Conference.

Finally the current Mid-Con has swimming, the one non-revenue sport where UND could possibly be competitive.

IMO, one of the problems with the Mid-Con is that no one is contented there - everyone wants to be elsewhere. It is difficult to build a decent conference with that sort of prevalent attitude. In addition, it has three schools that really bring it down: Chicago St (total apathy there - Chicago is a pro sports town anyway ), Centenary (Mayville State’s size, but with a minidome, in DI), and Southern Utah (geography and even the Big Sky is still avoiding it). If those three schools could be moved out (BTW, Centenary isn’t leaving anytime soon and Valpo would still represent the Chicago area) AND Grand Valley St, No Kentucky (which just indefinitely delayed a DI move) and UNO all could join, that would improve it. But this “new” Mid-Con Conference would have almost no presence in any area that has UND alumni or where prospective students could be naturally recruited.

[ecbrevik]

ecbrevik,

You make excellent points, and I respect your opinion as you obviously put alot of thought into your argument.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.  Personally, as someone who lives in this area and attends alot of UND events, I simply am not happy with the state of the NCC, DII as a whole, and the level of competition that we have been/will be competing against (especially in basketball).  I just think that our fine university has recently outgrown the league in which it fit so comfortably in for so many years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I can certainly respect your view. As I stated earlier, its not a cut and dried situation where one choice is obviously better than the other. I readily admit there are pros and cons both ways.