DI conferences pursue DII schools, indeed!

[Supertrex]

If "those schools" is refering to Duke...you need to get out a map...Duke, NC, NC State....all hugely successful D-I basketball programs within 50 miles of each other, maybe a hundred at the most...

What with the Bison (non football) playing out of town nearly every week (as a result of their lack of conference affiliation), when do the fans actually get to see them play...if it wasn't for the Forum, nobody would have a clue about their teams except for, of course, the coaches and players...and sometimes I wonder if the players themselves remember being at the games...

My original post indicated that I have heard directly from a number of leading TeamMakers that feel NDSU has made a mistake...wait until Bohl's contract expires (at the end of 2006??)... I think it's better than 50-50 that he'll move on (Minnesota might be calling if they don't get that turned around soon)...

No conference, no coaches; no coaches, no players; no players, no fans; no fans, no money from alumni....you got it yet???

[FargoBison]

If you want to compare hockey to basketball then fine, but subcategory or not D1 hockey compares way better to IAA then it does and ever will to D1 hoops. UND is no where near Duke. Duke is like a pro franchise they have fans that support them even though they never went to that college or lived in that region of the country. The next time I see UND on CBS or ABC every saturday I will start calling you the Duke of hockey. I'm sure they sell just as many UND hockey shirts in Durham NC as they do for NDSU football. NDSU is still not at full strength for football even with 50 scholarships, give NDSU some time maybe 3 years at 63 sholarships or even two before taking about wins and losses. And I said Geography and Media Markets were a big factor in the BSC decsion. But with UNC being added there aren't many teams that can fit that description so NDSU/SDSU become the most favorable schools for expansion if they would want to do so. Also UND got a letter but that was about all the consideration they got from the Big Sky, like I said, "D2 school no D1 commitment, forget about it."

And if you think that a D1 team like Gonzaga in this region would recieve less attention from the region then the UND hockey team you are crazy. ND is a basketball state and would choose a gonzaga like team or UND hockey everytime. But of course to Grand Forks and Sioux fans hockey will be forever the biggest thing around.

[FargoBison]

Supertex- Those schools are U of Minn and Wisconsin, they are the schools in those states, they share the limelight with no one. And the teammakers will be satisfied as long as NDSU is succesful in football, and they will be successful. And if Bohl left to coach the U of MN that would only speak to the quality that is NDSU football and would leave behind numerous of other deserving canidates that could fill his shoes. NDSU will find a conference by 2009 when the Big East splits it will leave many conferences in need of more schools, but I think NDSU will be in a conference before that time. NDSU will not be an indy forever.

[Supertrex]

I deleted my last post based on your latest reply...

However, your statement that football is all that matters goes to the heart of NDSU's problem...

Bohl leaving would also be a sign of his frustration and his need to move forward with his own career...it's not really worth debating. His departure would leave a huge hole in an already thin staff.

Coaches come and go. Established programs get the best coaches, who then get the best recruits...it goes without saying that the best recruits generally make the best teams and the best teams attract the most attention and alumni dollars...

NDSU has a long battle in front of it without conference affiliation...I hope that affiliation comes soon too. Nonaffiliation will be expensive for everyone and dollars that would have otherwise been spent on other programs for all ND schools will have to be diverted to NDSU.

If you live in reality, you recognize that money is a big deal - it allows for stronger programs and begins and completes the "circle" I have stated above... NDSU should not have gone D-1 without a conference. That said, we can all hope that you are right and that affiliation will come soon...if not, maybe D-2 won't look so bad afterall as the other less important programs face probable elimination.

[Smoggy]

FargoBison:

All Duke has going for it is basketball.

As the new Ralph was being built and I was sitting in a classroom, we were given a list of the NCAA top merchandise sellers. UND was in the top 75 out of EVERY NCAA institution. Might have even been top 50. Anyways, what I remember is that UND was ranked ahead of Duke.

To Duke's credit, they are a smaller private (Jesuit I think) school and rely heavily on non-graduates. But obviously being on ABC/CBS doesn't mean you'll do better in merchandising. You'll be more recognizable, but at the same time more people just seem to hate you for that.

[FargoBison]

I never said the football program was all that matters, I was refering to the fact that a successful football team may keep teamakers and others happy while NDSU finds a conference. And the bison football team is in a conference and willl have a full plate of 63 scholarships so I don't know what bohl is going to be frustrated.

"Coaches come and go. Established programs get the best coaches, who then get the best recruits...it goes without saying that the best recruits generally make the best teams and the best teams attract the most attention and alumni dollars."

I think that quote basically sums up NDSU football. An established program, with quality coaches. I don't think NDSU would have a problem finding a quality coach to replace Bohl, if he ever left. And NDSU won't go back to D2 because this was a step-up to put the athletic department on par with the rest of the university and to put a athletic dept. in place were it should have been a while ago. NDSU will have enough succes in D1 to shut down the go back to D2 talks.Also I think NDSU will form a D1 indy conference if the Mid-Con or Big Sky don't budge soon, just to keep the costs down.

[legend334]

at some point and time it has to become a common sense issue, is it worth to see our name on the ticker to go in the red, how much red ink will be on the books?? and without a conference you have no, none, zero stability or conference dollars to fall back on, without a doubt, that was the biggest mistake NDSU has made..not having a conference for ALL their sports!!! I predict not only Bohl will leave but Taylor will leave also if not soon within two max 3 years he will be gone..and possibly your president with a future vision also...Mr. Chapman, and then whoever comes in will be left with a big and I mean BIG mess....i heard Mr. Chapman was to allocate some dollars to athletics to cover their losses but that now this money is possibly not going to be there...did you see the Montana AD just got canned for a 1 million dollar deficit!!!!! and Montana has had success...been to the big dance within the last two or was it 3 years ago, won national championships...that is your future..a deficit compariable to that!!!!!! ENJOY!!!!!!!

[Bison Dan]

at some point and time it has to become a common sense issue, is it worth to see our name on the ticker to go in the red, how  much red ink will be on the books?? and without a conference you have no, none, zero stability or conference dollars to fall back on, without a doubt, that was the biggest mistake NDSU has made..not having a conference for ALL their sports!!!  I predict not only Bohl will leave but Taylor will leave also if not soon within two max 3 years he will be gone..and possibly your president with a future vision also...Mr. Chapman, and then whoever comes in will be left with a big and I mean BIG mess....i heard Mr. Chapman was to allocate some dollars to athletics to cover their losses but that now this money is possibly not going to be there...did you see the Montana AD just got canned for a 1 million dollar deficit!!!!!  and Montana has had success...been to the big dance within the last two or was it 3 years ago, won national championships...that is your future..a deficit compariable to that!!!!!!  ENJOY!!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

legend334 must be from Mars. The only AD leaving is rt, for a bigger and better job?? Your fb coach won't be around much longer, he wants to move up. Your president is weak and spiteful. So as far as people leaving I think UND will be filling holes more than NDSU. Montana's problems were with the books not reflecting the deficit, not the deficit itself. Hell UND is running a deficit as a dii school. What we will ENJOY is more media coverage within the state, region and nationally and in a few years success in DI. No DI conference recruits a dii school specially in the midwest.

[FargoBison]

Bohl will leave if he can get a solid head coaching job in D1A, and if that happens fine. Like I said when your coaches move on to bigger and better things it really speaks to the quality of your program. And when Bohl leaves there will be many coahes waiting in line for the NDSU job. Who wouldn't want to coach a program that is as well supported and funded as the NDSU football team. The only way I see Chapman leaving is either by retirement or getting fired, but I'm pretty sure he will see NDSU through the transition and years later, and Taylor may as well I haven't heard anything otherwise. As long as the budget stays balanced or near balanced things will be fine. If NDSU can't get any movement out of the Mid-Con or Big Sky this summer I think they will form a conference with the other indy schools just to keep costs down. Also as long as NDSU fans keep on coming to watch their teams play the program will be fine. Football attendance was solid, basketball attendance is about as good as you can expect for the schedule the teams are playing. Both teams could potentially make some money next year because of more D1 teams on the schedule, teams people actually want to see. And in 2007 look for the U of MN to play the bison in football and bring along with it a $200-250,000 for playing the game. The U of MN is being really helpful to NDSU by trying to get games in all sports whenever possible.

[legend334]

UND will find a AD better than Taylor..puppet head...and as long as you dont care to play all your games on the road to make your budget then go play the gophers and when they draw the same as Toledo...they wont want you back...get a clue...NDSU ignorance is running wild..oh yeah all the prestige that comes with D1...and the deficit!!!! ask Montana....your prodigy school!!!!! clue less!!!!!

[FargoBison]

Legend- The NDSU game could bring alot of NDSU fans to the MetroDome that is why the U of MN will play NDSU in Football. 35,000 usual Gopher fans + the 10-15,000 Bison fans would be a pretty good crowd for the Gophers. NDSU would then schedule with an area D2 team to balance out the schedule. And NDSU Would play 4 or 5 games against IAA teams at home. Thats a 5 or 6 game home schedule so NDSU would not be playing all road games. And Montana is not our prodidgy school, unless your talking football.

[The Sicatoka]

No DI conference recruits a dii school specially in the midwest.

The Big Sky did send UND a letter of interest looking to recruit them, yes?

[The Sicatoka]

As long as the budget stays balanced or near balanced things will be fine.

That's nearly as big as saying "never".

[The Sicatoka]

.... bring along with it a $200-250,000 for playing the game.

How much money is that really in the scope of an athletic department budget that is running seven-figure red ink? I won't deny it is a help, but not a cure.

Plus, look at Nebraska's schedule for 2005. They were supposed to play a IA but the IA wanted too much guarantee. A IAA underbid (took a lesser guarantee), saved "Big Red" some bucks, and got the date. (That's what I heard reported on ESPN Radio.) Those "big paydays" are becoming a low-bid war now too. Why? The big schools are looking for ways to save money. It'll affect everyone.

[Hansel]

How much money is that really in the scope of an athletic department budget that is running seven-figure red ink? .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The forum article projected a 1M deficit, but also said 100k would be shaved off with another home game (done), another forum article said Erv had raised 1/3 of the 1M

so assuming no more money is raised (unlikely)

1M - (333+100)= 567k deficit- admittedly not good -but not far off from the 406k deficit UND ran last year in DII with a "sold out" 27.50 FB game with NDSU and using institutional money in the form of tuition waivers to subsidize the athletic department

[The Sicatoka]

... using institutional money in the form of tuition waivers to subsidize the athletic department

Careful. That one has two edges also. Don't be surprised to see NDSU doing the same thing (because NDSU lobbied hard for that aspect of "local control" with the State Board of Higher Ed).

[FargoBison]

The Sicatoka- First off UND did recieve a letter from the Big Sky regarding the schools interest but they recieved little interest in the expnasion talks among big sky presidents. That same letter went to 15 other schools.

And I believe that game was supposed to be with Houston and played at Houston(this year or the next). So calling off the game doesn't mean that much, U of Montana does it all the time so they can get extra money from playing a home game instead of a road game. I'm sure the IAA school recieved at least $150-200,000 just for playing the game. And that is still a plenty of money. And the change that could affect everyone is dropping one of the A's off of IAA, basically making it eaiser for D1A schools to schedule IAA schools. The bonus money would drop even more if that happend probably to around 125k max. This change would also mean NDSU football be a D1 team and they would play in the PCS half(63 scholarships or less) of D1.

[The Sicatoka]

And the change that could affect everyone is dropping one of the A's off of IAA, basically making it eaiser for D1A schools to schedule IAA schools. The bonus money would drop even more if that happend probably to around 125k max. This change would also mean NDSU football be a D1 team and they would play in the PCS half(63 scholarships or less) of D1.

What you hypothesize there is the "restructing" of college football that many others have speculated on.

What you don't take into consideration is this:

If that restructuring were to occur,

- what other changes would come with it (like would other teams then decide to move up)?

- how would this affect various conferences and what would those impacts be?

The other shoe is far from having dropped in all of this yet. It's just fun to sit back and watch it all sort out.

[Hansel]

Careful. That one has two edges also. Don't be surprised to see NDSU doing the same thing (because NDSU lobbied hard for that aspect of "local control" with the State Board of Higher Ed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't surprise me if they do- throw in some tuition waivers, and NDSU's "deficit" is the same this year as UND's was last year- that's the point my friend.....

[FargoBison]

I think if this were to occur D1 would break into the BCS(85-64 scholarships) and PCS(63-0). The BCS division would most likely break off into 12 team superconferences and the Big East would break off from the basketball only teams, leaving only schools wanting to play BCS football behind. The rest of the former BCS schools would then join up with the IAA schools and play in a 16 team playoff format. The IAA non-scholarship schools may also be able to move down to play in D2. And since the Big East would break apart the basketball only teams would then probaby raid the A-10 and MVC and start a new conference, those confernces then would raid the Mid-Con and Horizen leaving openings for NDSU, SDSU, and maybe a few D2 schools. But those D2 schools would have to act fast because if you missed the boat on getting into D1 then it would likely be gone forever. And all this could occur just so the BCS presidents can say that they have a D1 playoff format for football. I agree this should be interesting on how all this realignment stuff will play out and to see if UND or NDSU had the correct approach on going D1.

[The Sicatoka]

... and maybe a few D2 schools. But those D2 schools would have to act fast because if you missed the boat on getting into D1 then it would likely be gone forever.

So it'd be good to be a DII with solid DI connections though some sports, right?

As far as "act fast", having been observing and studying and getting facilities build along the way would be really smart. Especially so if you had an internal athletics committee looking at the issue too, right.

somebison: I'm still interested in what that "unallocated" (or whatever the mushy word was that DOEd uses) means in the website where you get those numbers from.

[UND92,96]

somebison: I'm still interested in what that "unallocated" (or whatever the mushy word was that DOEd uses) means in the website where you get those numbers from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm curious about that, too. If there really is a $400,000-plus deficit, you would think we'd be seeing some action taken as a result. I'm not seeing any obvious ramifications that you'd expect to see in such a situation, but I certainly don't know the whole story.

[FargoBison]

As long as the D2 school had all the info gathered that they needed and would be ready to make a commitment fast they could be in good shape. If this were to occur it would basically mean that NDSU would be in a D1 conference and that wouldn't be a certainty if they were still D2. Going D1 has put NDSU in a solid postition, it may have also in turn put UND in a solid postition. NDSU also cleared UND a path to go D1 by lowering transitional penalties and showing other D1 schools the quality of the elite D2 schools. I think it was the right choice for UND to stay in D2 and watch what NDSU does and basically let NDSU pave a path to follow. And NDSU did the right thing by going D1 and putting themselves in a postition were conferences would find them most attaractive, plus the waddling around in D2 had to come to stop. The athletic program needed a fresh start and change of goals. NDSU had basically done all there was to do in D2.

[UND-1]

The athletic program needed a fresh start and change of goals. NDSU had basically done all there was to do in D2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? Is that why they went D1-AA or is that your conclusion you have come up with?

If that is why, it would've been more appropriate in 1990, not now. There program has steadily gotten more and more mediocre since the start of the 1990's. That excuse is not viable anymore, considering how your Womens BBall and Football teams both became pedestrian compared to what they once were. Basically, you left because those teams needed a shot in the arm because at D2 they had completely lost their dominance (especially to a team 75 miles to the north).

[FargoBison]

If that is why, it would've been more appropriate in 1990, not now.