DI conferences pursue DII schools, indeed!

[star2city]

On this and other boards, it has often been argued that Division I conferences will not pursue D-II schools until they make a full DI commitment. This past Wednesday, membership offers made by the Atlantic Sun to Kennesaw State (defending DII basketball champ) and U of North Florida pierced more holes into that argument:

Kennesaw St., N. Florida rise into A-Sun

Two years ago or so, Atlantic Sun Conference commissioner Bill Bibb said the league was targeting two schools for future membership.  The goal became reality Wednesday with the announcement that Kennesaw State and North Florida had acceped offers to join the A-Sun with their move up from NCAA Division II.

This week, it was also interesting that WDAZ had a story on building a football/track practice facility on the site of the Old Engelstad Arena. Although fundraising would be needed, such a facility is the most pressing need by the athletic department , especially if football and track are to be viable at a DI level.

So the question remains, who is running the smarter race: the green and white tortoise or the jackrabbit and his landcow friend?

The impending split of the Big East in 2009-10 is the most likely cause of major conference realignments, likely rippling thorugh the Atlantic 10, Horizon, and Mid-Continent conferences. Without a change in heart by the Big Sky by that time, our friends down south will have each consumed an extra $10 million just on expenses, will face an unsettled fan base, will have lost revenue from no conference affiliation, and will still face the need for tens of millions in facility improvements. In the meantime, the tortoise will have all new barns and maybe endowments to go with them.

Will patience and planning prevail, yet again?

[FargoBison]

Those two D2 schools were all in better shape in finding a conference since they were all located near D1 conferences looking at adding teams. NDSU is miles away from most D1 conferences and needs to prove itself before gaining entry into one. And if D2 cuts schollies tommarrow what is the green and white turtle to do, if a huge mass of teams decides to leave D2 there is no garuantee that the NCAA will let them jump divisions since they don't want to add anymore auto-bids for basketball. And also NDSU will most likely be in a conference by 2009-10, the mid con will eventually add them or another cofernce will panic since they may be picked apart by other conferences looking to replace teams. Even if NDSU isn't in a conference by then they will look much more attractive then UND since they will be tournement eligable for every sport and will have established it's program in D1, so they will be ready right away. NDSU was patient and pobably waited too long in making the D1 move, this should have happened in the early 80's or 90's. As for planning NDSU spent 2 years planning their D1 move and by no means rushed into the decision like UND may have to do if schollies are cut.

[dakotadan]

What I found interesting is how relatively new these schools are. North FLorida was started in 1972 and has an enrollment just under 15,000. Kennesaw was opened in '66 as a 2 year school and now has an enrollment of over 18,000. North FLorida was in the NAIA up until 92 and KSU was an NAIA member as recently as 94.

[RD17]

What I found interesting is how relatively new these schools are. North FLorida was started in 1972 and has an enrollment just under 15,000. Kennesaw was opened in '66 as a 2 year school and now has an enrollment of over 18,000. North FLorida was in the NAIA up until 92 and KSU was an NAIA member as recently as 94.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes but those two schools are in huge metro areas. UNF is in Jacksonville, which at least to my knowledge, doesn't have another public 4-year school nearby. Kennesaw State is in suburban Atlanta. IUPUI and South Florida are other good examples of other relatively new schools that rocketed into D1 because of a rapid increase in enrollment.

[star2city]

Those two D2 schools (UNF and KSU) were all in better shape in finding a conference since they were all located near D1 conferences looking at adding teams. NDSU is miles away from most D1 conferences and needs to prove itself before gaining entry into one.

[FargoBison]

Star2city- As you've probably been told 100 times already by now that the Mid-Con, Horizen, and especially the Big Sky told NDSU to go D1 and then look for a conference invite 4 or 5 years down the road. And as of now NDSU hasn't even finished year two of the transition, there is still plent of time. The Mid-Con may give us a better look this summer and hopefully give NDSU an invite. Who knows Sac St could leave the Big Sky and NDSU would basically be a shoe-in for conference admission. NDSU will get into a conference some where, they are just too strong of a school not to be in a conference. As for staying in D2 and waiting for a conference, NDSU waddled around in D2 for far too long it was time to leave, NDSU should have left in the early 80's or 90's and the program(football) eventually paid the price by staying in D2 for too long by years of scholarship cuts and D2's constant lets lower the elite down to the level of everybody else attitude. NDSU had basically outgrown D2 and it was time to leave and look for new challanges. Maybe UND will outgrow D2 some day and can to move onto bigger and better challanges.

[star2city]

Star2city- As you've probably been told 100 times already by now that the Mid-Con, Horizen, and especially the Big Sky told NDSU to go D1 and then look for a conference invite 4 or 5 years down the road.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those conferences never encouraged NDSU/SDSU to go DI. In fact the Midcon and Horizon commissioners publicly denied interest (unusual in itself) and the Big Sky publicly rebuked membership (telling them to look elsewhere) before the DII transition year was over. There were no pre-existing gentleman's agreement with any of these conferences that either SDSU or NDSU will be given strong considerations even after four years.

NDSU will get into a conference some where, they are just too strong of a school not to be in a conference.

This is another common refrain from NDSU fans. By that definition, Alaska-Fairbanks is also "too strong" a school (flagship and a land grant) not to be accepted into a DI all-sports conference. Yes, that is an extreme example, but geography, media, and recruiting are what matter. At the DIA level, La Tech is an example of a "strong school" that is really hurt by its location, travel issues, and media limitations.

As for staying in D2 and waiting for a conference, NDSU waddled around in D2 for far too long it was time to leave, NDSU should have left in the early 80's or 90's and  the program(football) eventually paid the price by staying in D2 for too long by years of scholarship cuts and D2's constant lets lower the elite down to the level of everybody else attitude.  NDSU had basically outgrown D2 and it was time to leave and look for new challenges. Maybe UND will outgrow D2 some day and can to move onto bigger and better challanges.

Agree that NDSU "waddled" around too long in D2, allowing a golden window of opportunity to pass. If they had moved in the early 90's, they could have taken either Idaho's or Boise State's slots in the Big Sky. Instead of moving east, the Sky was forced west to Sac State, Portland State (and CSU-Northridge), making any Central Time Zone expansion nearly impossible until the Pacific Time Zone schools are gone.

[PCM]

Agree that NDSU "waddled" around too long in D2, allowing a golden window of opportunity to pass.  If they had moved in the early 90's, they could have taken either Idaho's or Boise State's slots in the Big Sky. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn that Iraqi oil embargo!

[FargoBison]

Star2city-Well actually I believe it was the MVC and Horizen that publically denied interest and the Mid-Con didn't say much of anything and they still aren't. The Big Sky will probably continue to flirt with the idea of adding NDSU and it will take Sac St leaving or a miracle that would make Sac change their mind for entery. And I'll I said was take a look, I didn't say anything about a gentleman's agreement. The only conference completely out of reach is the MVC, they said join a conference and became solid in mens basketball and maybe you will get looked at in 10 years. NDSU will be in a conference by the end of the transition, I think the Mid-Con will want to expand into a 12 team league so they can be ensured of stablilty when the Big East spilt occurs.

[sioux goo]

even if Sac St. leaves the Big Sky, they dont want NDSU...that is why they asked UND and courted UND...your the patsy gonig along for the ride..figure it out...and even if Sac St. leaves they wont pursue NDSU...ask our old AD..Mr. Wanless..oh yeah I already did..and he told me that!!!!! dont believe everything your AD is telling you...he is tring to sell tickets!!!!!

[Supertrex]

NDSU had basically outgrown D2 and it was time to leave and look for new challanges. Maybe UND will outgrow D2 some day and can to move onto bigger and better challanges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're kidding right? That is the funniest thing I'll hear all week and it's only Monday...

You, my friend, are kidding yourself. The "bigger and better challanges [sic]" (please note the correct spelling is "challenges") you are referring to apparently do not apply to your men's bb, women's bb or any other programs except football and your "bigger and better" in football is suspect at best. I know numerous NDSU Bison Boosters who now believe that they made a tremendous mistake and have thrown most of the athletic department under the bus...

[FargoBison]

First Sioux goo if Sac leaves the Big Sky that would change the 6-2(according to Fulerton) vote into a 7-1 or 6-1 vote with the two power programs(montana and montana st.) supporting NDSU strongly. I think they like the NDSU/UND combo but it will never happen since UND will never leave D2 and the Big Sky will never consider a D2 for membership. Here is basically what the Big Sky said about adding UND, "D2 school with no D1 commitment, forget about it." And if a UND/NDSU combo ever occured it only be because UND is riding on NDSU's coatails, UND wouldn't have a chance to be in the Big Sky if NDSU wasn't in D1 and actively pursueing membership and changing D1 rules. UND could never get in alone or with SDSU. NDSU can.

Supertex have you been following the SDSU womens team this year? If you haven't they are playing and beating D1 teams everyday, they barley lost to #20 Purdue by a point, if SDSU can have success so can Amy Ruley and the Bison. The Softball team and Wrestling teams will also have success in D1 since they have been playing and beating D1 teams for years now. The wrestling team is 3-0 against ACC teams and beat the defending ACC champ NCSU on their home floor. The only programs were I see some suffering are the mens team and the baseball team. The baseball team could never compete in D2 and needs alot of work, and the basketball team is terrible right now but they should be better in the upcoming years with the two great recruiting classes they have had. The football team can compete in IAA and probably do better in a division that doesn't want to force it's teams into a level of mediocrity, the extra 27 scholarships will make a huge difference and NDSU will be a IAA power. So I don't know what you mean by throwing the sports programs under a bus, most of these teams will get more media coverage and will get a chance to compete at the highest level and win at that level. It looks to me like the NDSU sports program is moving on to bigger and better things. If NDSU is ever succesful like Gonzaga or Creighton in D1 mens basketball, the area media will throw the UND hockey team under a bus.

[sioux goo]

bison re re...guess we will see wont we...time will tell...like it always does....what is your mens and womens conference record this year???

[CoteauRinkRat]

If NDSU is ever succesful like Gonzaga or Creighton in D1 mens basketball, the area media will throw the UND hockey team under a bus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What media? The Fargo Foolum??

[UND-1]

And if a UND/NDSU combo ever  occured it only be because UND is riding on NDSU's coatails, UND wouldn't have a chance to be in the Big Sky if NDSU wasn't in D1 and actively pursueing membership and changing D1 rules. UND could never get in alone or with SDSU. NDSU can.

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would NDSU get into the Big Sky alone? You guys are buying into Taylors B.S. hook, line, and sinker. Does anyone ever ask a question down there? Bunch of sockpuppets.

I bet those schools like Northern Arizona are just licking there chops to fly into Fargo every year! Do you realize how unfeasible that is and that is exactly why you didn't get in this year.

[The Sicatoka]

Just some questions, nothing more.

"Never" is a big word. Are you sure that's the one you want to use?

Didn't the BSC presidents take the words "at this time" off the end of the statement saying that "UNC is the only program they'll look at"? What does taking "at this time" off that sentence mean?

Aren't the revenue sports the key in this discussion? How are they doing? (That question is meant to be answered in three years.)

When'd the ACC become a wrestling power? I thought that was the domain of the Big Ten and Big 12.

Aren't all DI-AAs allowed 63 scholarships, or just NDSU? How can NDSU be a power with 27 more when everyone else has 63 also?

Why bring up UND hockey? Is that the standard for DI program excellence that still keeps Bison fans awake at night? (PS - Saying you want to be Gonzaga or Creighton in BB is like saying you want to be St. Lawrence or Clarkson in hockey. Yawn.)

[UND92,96]

Why bring up UND hockey? Is that the standard for DI program excellence that still keeps Bison fans awake at night? (PS - Saying you want to be Gonzaga or Creighton in BB is like saying you want to be St. Lawrence or Clarkson in hockey. Yawn.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One more question, how can NDSU fans realistically think that being a mid-major dI basketball power like the aforementioned schools is remotely possible considering NDSU's history as a dII program? I can see it possibly happening in the not-to-distant future for the women's programs at NDSU and SDSU (just as I think it could happen for UND should they go dI), but it's highly, highly unlikely that the NDSU men will ever be comparable to Gonzaga, et al. in men's basketball. It's fine to hope for the occasional trip to the Big Dance (should NDSU find a conference), but it's a huge difference between making the field every 20 years or so as a 16 seed and getting hammered by Duke or Kentucky in the first round, to being a team like the Zags who make the tournament practically every year and who the teams from major conferences legitimately worry about playing against.

[bisonguy]

even if Sac St. leaves the Big Sky, they dont want NDSU...that is why they asked UND and courted UND...your the patsy gonig along for the ride..figure it out...and even if Sac St. leaves they wont pursue NDSU...ask our old AD..Mr. Wanless..oh yeah I already did..and he told me that!!!!! dont believe everything your AD is telling you...he is tring to sell tickets!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Big Sky "courted" about 15 schools, other than those that had already shown interest in the Big Sky. That included schools that may or may not have been interested in moving to DI, as well as DI schools.

Sicatoka,

The "at this time" was replaced with "only schools that a consensus could be reached".

[FargoBison]

I'll respond to each and everyone of your posts individually. first off Sioux goo. You are correct time will tell and we'll find out if NDSU made the right choice. But you have to give it time don't start in on the conference records and dumb things like NDSU playing an abudance of D2 teams in basketball and Mont Tech in football.(I know you didn't say anything about Mont Tech or our schedule but alot of Sioux fans do.)

Now CoteauRinkR the region wide media would probably give NDSU extensive coverage if they ever were a Gonzaga or Creighton in D1 hoops, not just the forum.

UND-1- NDSU didn't get into the Big Sky because Sac St didn't want us in the Big Sky. Cal Davis, Cal Poly, and So Utah have no problem with traveling to the Dakotas for football, UNA has to fly every where else for Big Sky play whats the differece to go to Fargo, not much. NDSU didn't get in because the Big Sky loves big markets, wants to be a rockey mountain conference, and some schools don't want to add a power like NDSU to the conference. Who knows if that will change, but as long as Montana and Montana St support NDSU, we will always have a chance.

The Sicatoka- Never is a big word but as long as UND is D2 they will never get serious consideration from the Big Sky. And yes they are only looking at UNC but things could change fast and NDSU and SDSU are sitting next in line if the confernce wants to expand. Also the person I replied to talked about the entire athletic dept. being throw under the bus, not just the revenue sports, and only one of those sports is struggling at the moment and yes things will be clearer in 3 years. NDSU was at 36 scholarships when they beat Montana, 27 more will only stregthen the program even more. NDSU can now give out lots of full rides and attract even more quality athletes to Fargo. Look at what NDSU is doing know while being hadicapped with a lower scholarship level, just think what will happen when NDSU is at full strength. And please never compare D1 hoops to hockey ever again, more people know about those two D1 schools then they do about St. Lawerance or even one of the greatest hockey programs out there UND. Maybe I should start calling UND hockey the Georgia Southern(IAA football power) of hockey since D1 hockey compares much more favorably to IAA football then it does to D1 hoops or football.

UND92- I never said NDSU would become a mid-major power I said if they would that is what would happen. Gonzaga didn't become a mid-major power overnight, it took lots of hard work and years of dedication for them to do so. I can tell you NDSU will be dedicated to having a successful athletic program and the coaches and admins will work hard to accomplish their goals.

[sioux goo]

NDSU arrogance or ignornance....that is the question...and trust me when i tell you that TW told me Sac St. wasnt alone in not wanting NDSU...if you would like next time i will tape the phone conversation fargobison fan....nieveness is often ridiculous!!!!!!

[Supertrex]

If NDSU is ever succesful like Gonzaga or Creighton in D1 mens basketball, the area media will throw the UND hockey team under a bus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right...Let's just say that I doubt that the "media" will be throwing ND's only TRUE D1 program under the bus anytime soon since it is also one of the premier programs in the USA (regardless of whether you can admit that fact). It might interest you to know that other premier hockey programs such as Minnesota or Wisconsin don't have trouble competing for media exposure, even though they compete with professional sports franchises...Only the Fargo Forum would be willing to sweep away a team with a 50 year history of storied success including Seven DIVISION I National Titles and more WCHA titles and Number One National rankings than any other team in the nation...

I agree with The Sicatoka, why be a Gonzaga when you can be Duke??? Like it or not, UND Hockey is the Duke of college hockey...

[FargoBison]

I said it was 6-2 vote(according to wday) so yes Sac was not alone in going against NDSU. Fulerton said NDSU recieved the most support excpet UNC and was supported very strongly by some schools. If there wasn't a unaminous vote there would be Big Sky reps looking at NDSU right now.

[The Sicatoka]

You have to compare hockey to BB: There's no "AA" subcategory in either.

UND, as a DII, did get interest from the BSC: The BSC started the conversation with UND by sending a letter asking if UND was interested.

Didn't 40-some scholarship SDSU and UNC beat a 50-some scholarship NDSU this year? I guess it cuts both ways, right?

UNA is North Alabama. NAU is Northern Arizona.

The BSC clearly wanted to stay in their geography and gain a major media market (Denver). The key words there: Geography. Major market.

[FargoBison]

Those schools are THE schools for those states, UND shares the limelight with NDSU and North Dakota is a basketball state and will support a succesful D1 basketball much more then it will a D1 hockey team, no matter who it is. The media will cover whatever it's veiwers/subscribers want or appeals to most, and I would bet that a succesful D1 hoops team would appeal to most people in this region outside the city of Grand Forks more then it would for D1 hockey, and in my last post I did say UND was one of the greatest hockey programs ever and I have admitted that many times.

[The Sicatoka]

The media will cover  whatever it's veiwers/subscribers want or appeals to most, ...

Yup. And around here what is most appealing is winning championships. It's hard to get noticed otherwise.