The Division I Question? New Answer?

[Bisonfan1234]

2 cents worht on SDSU and the sky relative to bball:

the BSC is a better bball home for the Jacks than the MVC. Why? The BSC has great bball potential. They've also slowly moved up the RPI ranks in bball lately with EWU and WSU doing well.

I think that SDSU could not only compete with current BSC teams on the hardwood, they could win the conference tournament. That, of course, grants them an invite to the big dance. And as you all probably remember last year, EWU gave OKSU a decent game and got some great national exposure.

They have nothing more to gain by being in the MVC (they get the same dance invite if they win) but have more to lose since they'll be playing stiffer competition.

Finally, the BSC, like I said, wants to increase its bball profile. That means that not only is SDSU going to get a serious look from them on both men's and women's bball status, so will UND and NDSU for their women's programs. Also I think that means that if USD wants to look at a move down the road, bball might be their ticket as well.

[The Sicatoka]

Some quotes I find interesting:

Tim O'Keefe, UND Alumni Association and Foundation executive vice president: "Whether that will be a consequence of us moving up, or the high likelihood of some sort of NCAA reclassification, remains to be seen."

"I see the NCAA reclassifying and, by design and by default, many schools will reclassify," he said. "That means between and among the existing divisions and even new divisions that aren't in existence right now."

Could it be that the BCS schools are looking around and are tired of sharing all that TV revenue with schools that are just there for the revenue-sharing check? I'd guess that Ohio State ($80 MM athletics budget) et al view schools with $8-10 MM budgets the same way a lot of DII fans viewed the UM-Morris' and MSU-Moorheads moving into DII. I wouldn't be surprised to see the BCS-type schools push for a division of their own.

Scarano says he believes the time will come when Division I-AA has football scholarship reductions, too. The Division I-AA limit is 63.

"Some day the presidents or somebody are going to say it's not worth the investment," Scarano said. "We talk all the time about decreasing scholarships in I-AA. My point of view is that's OK as long as everybody does it."

Scholarship reductions in DI-AA now too? I guess as state budgets get tighter the schools have to look to balance the budgets somehow, even in the DI-AA ranks.

[The Sicatoka]

Much like NDSU's football team and fans, UND's alumni association sounds like they are overlooking SDSU. 12,300+ and a win over NDSU - that has to look good to the Sky. I wonder if there is a chance USD or UMD will look harder at DI because, contrary to O'Keefe's belief, you can travel south of Fargo on I-29 as well as north.

I still think its kind of weak to say a scholarship cut would force UND to do anything when it's been clear one has been in the works for a decade. However, I gotta admit that if they do cut it to 24, that's a whole different animal. You'd have to have been blind not to see 30 or 32 coming, but 24... that would be the biggest change to DII football since 75% of the top programs left for DI-AA 25 years ago.

'tony', as best I could hear channel-surfing between the Twins, the Gophers vs DU on FSN, WDAY-TV, Texas Tech whuppin' Big Red, and popping on the Bose for the hockey game (UND at Maine), about half of those in Brookings were Bison fans. (That's not a dig at anyone. That's applause to those NDSU fans who went.)

You're right: 30ish is one thing, "24" would be a cut to the bone. I'm sure that number surprised a lot of folks.

PS (and a late edit): "I wonder if there is a chance .... UMD will look harder at DI" --- I guess I wouldn't expect that. The UM system is short on money.

[The Sicatoka]

Sicatoka,

I put the financials in italics. Strange, the NCAA seems to be concerned about $$$$$$   

Seriously? Sayitain'tso.

[The Sicatoka]

A pretty big Heraldo article on the possible move to dI by UND.  link

Didn't 'star2city' predict a larger discussion of this issue during Homecoming Week? Well, that article is the the topic starter.

[star2city]

In the Dakota Student article, RT was quoted with these statements about Div I:

We're in the middle of strategic planning right now for our program, and that's one of the topics we're going to closely investigate. We're looking at if we can do it. Can we do it well? Can we be successful? What kind of money would it cost? Do you keep all of your programs? Do you drop programs? What league do you join?

On further reflection, unless a school knows what conference it will join, why would it ask questions about what programs to keep or drop? Just the fact that NDSU and SDSU have not dropped any sports (or added any, with the exception of women’s equestrian at SDSU) really has probably been an indicator that they have not had a true sense of what conference they would be joining. After all, if NDSU knew with any sense of certainty that a Big Sky bid was coming, wouldn’t it have made an effort to start men’s and women’s tennis?

By the same token, if a school is certain of which conference it will be joining, issues around dropping programs will be rather key, as dropping programs can cause serious issues among alumni. Comparing Big Sky sports to UND sports, the only sport the Big Sky “requires” that UND does not sponsor is men’s tennis (Riddick/Agassiz doesn’t count). But UND sponsors several sports that the Big Sky does not sponsor: men’s golf, baseball, softball, and swimming. If UND was invited to the Big Sky, it would probably have to add men’s tennis. Men’s golf would probably be axed. Even if the collegiate baseball season was extended into June, it would seem UND baseball would have a difficult time surviving, especially considering the available facility, weather, and its likely competitiveness in Div I. Softball would also seem to be on the potential chopping block, but Title IX considerations may help it. The past success of the UND swimming program may be the key to saving it. Considering that Big Sky schools typically only sponsor the conference (and DI) minimum 14 programs (6 men and 8 women), UND’s athletics, likely to be at least 18 programs, will be more extensive (and expensive) than rival Big Sky programs (all hypothetically, of course). If a Big Sky bid is more than speculation, there are likely some difficult and apinful decisions ahead.

[Bisonfan1234]

Hockey should be able to pay for swiming.

Another problem with baseball/softball is the long road trips to the south and west to get games early on.

Men's golf, however, is relatively inexpensive. The only reason to drop it would be for T9 considerations.

[Hansel]

Scholarship reductions in DI-AA now too? I guess as state budgets get tighter the schools have to look to balance the budgets somehow, even in the DI-AA ranks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only rumblings I have heard about I-AA scholarship reductions are from... UNH. So while they may or may not eventually happen asking Scarano if IAA scholies will be reduced is like asking the PSAC or RMAC commish if DII scholarships will be reduced.

[The Sicatoka]

Dr. Kupchella gives his State of the University Address later today. Here's a portion of what he previewed to the Grand Forks Herald:

Division I talk

Kupchella's address only briefly will touch on school athletics, and he won't make any bold statements about jumping to Division I in all school sports. Currently, UND competes in Division I in men's and women's hockey only.

Speculation that UND would make the leap upward in other sports has escalated lately, as the NCAA is considering rule changes that would decrease the number of scholarships allowed in Division II.

Kupchella told the Herald that he's not feeling overwhelming pressure by anyone to move to Division I, but he also didn't say the school would never consider it.

"When it looks like a good idea, then we'll do it," he said.

He said such a move would require a $70 million endowment in order to generate $3 million annually in new funding to pay for the athletic program. The benefits of such a move wouldn't outweigh costs, he added.

"Ohio State's athletic budget is more than our total state appropriation," Kupchella said.

[The Sicatoka]

The only rumblings I have heard about I-AA scholarship reductions are from... UNH. 

I won't dispute what you've heard. I'll ask a question.

"Some day the presidents or somebody are going to say it's not worth the investment," Scarano said. "We talk all the time about decreasing scholarships in I-AA. My point of view is that's OK as long as everybody does it."

The question: Who is the "we" Scarano speaks of, is it internally at UNH or with other DI-AA ADs? The "in I-AA" ending makes me believe it may be external to UNH.

[The Sicatoka]

I just came across a recent NCAA News piece on DI-AA. It's an interesting read, expecially when you "compare and contrast" it with a past piece by former NCC commissioner Marcil.

Marcil on DII woes:

http://www.ncaa.org/news/2004/20040315/edi...al/4106n04.html

Positions or ideas espoused:

- philosophy of regional teams: "has a philosophy of geographic regionalization"

- philosophy of fiscal sanity: "limited athletics grant-in-aid maximums"

- rename the division: "connotes a second-rate or inferior product"

- establish some type of national television coverage plan for Division II

Fullerton (et al) on DI-AA woes:

http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/asso...ws/4121n01.html

Positions or ideas espoused:

- philosophy of regional teams: "What makes a team I-A is that, ... No. 2, you are going to play a national schedule. We don't aspire to do either of those unless we're forced to. We understand that we're not trying to be I-A," (Fullerton) said."

- philosophy of fiscal sanity: ""What makes a team I-A is that, No. 1, you are going to make enough money to support your program, ... We don't aspire to do either of those unless we're forced to. We understand that we're not trying to be I-A,"(Fullerton) said."

- rename the division: "officials continue tossing around the idea of changing the name of the classification ... people often misunderstand the I-AA name ... is applied ... in "unintended and harmful ways.""

- want more television coverage: "treat I-AA football as a primary event, even more television coverage would be forthcoming."

[bisonguy]

Much of the wishlist for DII and DI-AA might be alike, but they are on two different scales:

DII TV coverage: National Championship on ESPN network

DI-AA TV coverage: First round of the playoffs on ESPN network, playoff quarterfinals on ESPN network, playoff semifinals on ESPN network, National Championship on ESPN network, weekly game on CSTV, multiple weekly games on FOX College Sports Networks, Bayou Classic on national NBC.

This isn't even touching on the "regional" networks.

[The Sicatoka]

Yeah, but they both (DII and DI-AA) want more television. Why?

"There seems to be more and more blurring of the lines between classifications," -- Robert Hemenway, chancellor at the University of Kansas and chair of the NCAA Division I Board of Directors.

That's a quote from the NCAA News article in this thread.

[Smoggy]

So I was flipping channels around midnight PST and came across the Northern Colorado FB game on Fox Sports Rocky Mtn. It was half time and they were interviewing UNC's new athletic director. I missed the beginning, but then he said that if they were accepted into the BSC that it would bring them the Denver TV market (which I guess was obvious with this game on FSRM). THen he started talking about all the work that they still have to do. They are adding 2,000 seats to the stadium, but it needs more work. They have to renovate the bball arena, and they need to build their own practice facilities. I'm guessing they share facilities with high schools?

We've talked plenty about whether or not SDSU and NDSU are ready, but it's sounding like UNC wasn't ready to make the jump. He said they need to raise a lot of money (can't remember the figure, or maybe he didn't give one) and that they will be asking the people of Greeley to help.

[Bisonfan1234]

When talking about facilities, UND is the closest to being DI. SDSU, NDSU, and UNC all have lots things to build or improve.

[UND92,96]

UNC will likely always struggle with low attendance. For football, they typically average in the 5000 range, and in basketball, it's typically well under 1000. If winning a couple of national championships in dII football, plus the novelty of going dI hasn't been enough for them to draw better than they have the past couple of years, I don't think it's ever going to happen for them.

[Smoggy]

Then if attendance isn't great, why add 2,000 seats?

[UND92,96]

Then if attendance isn't great, why add 2,000 seats?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's highly questionable whether they actually NEED more seats, but the capacity is currently only 6500 according to their web site. On occasion, they do draw more than that. Their largest crowd ever was somewhere in the 7500 range. On average, since Nottingham Field opened, I think they've averaged perhaps one game per year with a crowd between 6500 and 7500.

[Bisonfan1234]

If you build it, they will come.

What was UND's average attendance before/after the Alerus?

Granted UND has had massive success since the construction, but the added seats have allowed the overflowing UND football following to all have seats.

In the same respect, granted that this year has been a disaster for UNC, if UNC adds 10,000 seats to Nottingham, I would easily expect the average attendence to jump up. Maybe even double.

Then, on top of that, I have a sneaking suspecion that the Big Sky is going to want all it's members to start working towards 15000 capacity just in case there needs to be a move to DIA.

[Smoggy]

If you build it, they will come.

What was UND's average attendance before/after the Alerus?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two totally different situations. UND moved indoors, which die hards don't care for, but the casual fan loves.

UNC is just adding seats. In this case, I don't think the demand isn't there according to UND92,96. I guess, my thinking is more along the lines of seating capacity looking better to conferences.

[Bisonfan1234]

The good thing about die hards, however, is that they'll still keep coming to watch even if you move it indoors.

Still, I think UNC's situation would benefit from more seats.

[star2city]

When talking about facilities, UND is the closest to being DI. SDSU, NDSU, and UNC all have lots things to build or improve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Bisonfan, a statement I agree with 100%!!!

Back to the topic:

For UND to create more revenue to finance a DI move, the major answer would have to be basketball. While a bodybag game with a Div I football team will bring in a $200-500 k payday, that really only pays for the annual increase in scholarship money from DII to IAA football. The extra payoff has to come from basketball. Since the number of home dates will almost double (no more men and women doubleheaders), that in itself would practically double paid attendance (although the season ticket base for each would now be different). Two areas at which I’ve been surprised at since their DI moves are (1) NDSU’s ability to recruit in men’s bball and (2) SDSU’s ability to schedule Div I teams for both men and women. Admittedly, NDSU’s recruits are not upper DI level recruits, but they are still higher quality than I expected would be attracted to the BSA and without any conference championship to play for. The Betty/Ralph should allow UND to recruit at an even higher level. On the women’s side, I would expect UND to be well positioned to attract Minnesota’s non-Gopher recruits.

For scheduling, SDSU’s ability to schedule USC in Brooking of all places (2006?), leads me to believe that UND, with the Ralph as a carrot as well as better financial backing, could do so also. Perhaps if UND ever won one of those games, scheduling would get much more difficult. But all in all, it would probably not be that much of a stretch for UND DI BB teams to total 100,000 in attendance (~25 games @ ~4000 / game vs. 15 game events @ ~3000 / game).

[Bisonfan1234]

You would think that recruiting would be extremely difficult with no conference and the BSA unless there is something in the works that could sell them.

My guess? Miles has been telling his recruits that with a redshirt year, their senior year could look something like this: winning the Big Sky Championship in the Fargodome in front of 13000+ fans and then getting to play in the big dance.

I think that would sell.

If you insert REA for Fargodome, the situation could be the exact same for UND for next years class if you went this year.

[doclenz]

UNC has good football practice facilities. They are probably trying to enhace them. Remember the Denver Broncos trained there for years. UNC's fans love football and come out. One reason the students go, is because they sell beer at the games. UNC will never draw for basketball. The students ski on the weekends and also prefer not to associate with negative things.

[IowaBison]

With Kupchella's comments on DI athletics during his State of the University address, shouldn't the title of this post be changed to "....Same Answer?"