The Division I Question? New Answer?

[DamStrait]

Okay tony, now that you have made your repsonse, which was exactly as everyone expected it to be, go crawl back in your hole (and stay there).

[IowaBison]

I guess it all depends on what you call deliberate. I think NDSU happened to jump in head first without a conference affiliation being secured. I am not saying UND will be in a better shape, but I don't them being worse off either. There definitely has been no need to rush into the move.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

while we did move without a conference, the situation was nowhere near the case where Chapman woke up one morning a said, we're going DI in the fall, there was a process in place which was followed, this took years to complete, it was not done on a whim

i think that if UND, though fully capable of having a sucessful DI program, expects to move up only when a conference affiliation is guaranteed you are going to be D2 for quite some time

[WYOBISONMAN]

The bottom line is that everyone except the UND faithful are happy and excited about the NDSU move.....that means it is a success up to this point and things are looking good for the future.

[UND92,96]

The bottom line is that everyone except the UND faithful are happy and excited about the NDSU move.....that means it is a success up to this point and things are looking good for the future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're entitled to your opinion as to what UND fans are happy about or not, but the real test will be what happens if the Big Sky says no to expansion this far east. If they do expand into the Dakota's, it's at least potentially great for both UND and NDSU. If they say no, NDSU is stuck in dI independent purgatory for potentially many years, NDSU fans and alums will be or at least should be very worried about what will happen in terms of conference affiliation, and UND will be faced with deciding which is the lesser of two evils--being a dI independent in all sports but football, or staying in dII in spite of the fact that football scholarship limits may be identical to NAIA. As I see it, either both schools will be happy or neither will.

[IowaBison]

You're entitled to your opinion as to what UND fans are happy about or not, but the real test will be what happens if the Big Sky says no to expansion this far east. If they do expand into the Dakota's, it's at least potentially great for both UND and NDSU. If they say no, NDSU is stuck in dI independent purgatory for potentially many years, NDSU fans and alums will be or at least should be very worried about what will happen in terms of conference affiliation, and UND will be faced with deciding which is the lesser of two evils--being a dI independent in all sports but football, or staying in dII in spite of the fact that football scholarship limits may be identical to NAIA. As I see it, either both schools will be happy or neither will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree. First, I do think that NDSU will get an invite. Also, I believe that we will get an invite from the Mid-Con as well.

While purgatory is very good word for where the Bison are at, ie conference affiliation 'limbo, i'm having a pretty time here

[The Sicatoka]

Enjoy the "good time" now. The tab is coming. --> How come The Forum hasn't done a follow-up on this story from back in May?

He (NDSU AD Gene Taylor) said the department needs to raise $991,000, mostly from private contributions, before June 2005 to break even. Taylor said he would like the majority of that to be committed by this September.

September is here and gone. There hasn't been a progress/follow-up story to date. As Sioux Hockey announcer Tim Hennessy would say, "How's she goin'?" in terms of raising that roughly $1 MM to cover this year's budget is the question.

The budget issues are the biggest DI issue for anyone as geographically remote as the Dakotas are.

[Hansel]

Enjoy the "good time" now. The tab is coming. --> How come The Forum hasn't done a follow-up on this story from back in May?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

-also in that link

"Taylor said if NDSU gets another home football game, it will slice another $100,000 off that deficit."

which they did (C-N)- yah I know- only 890k to go

[tony]

Okay tony, now that you have made your repsonse, which was exactly as everyone expected it to be, go crawl back in your hole (and stay there).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the G and H you left out stood for "good humor". Instead of crawling back into my hole, I shall call you Sparky and see if your head explodes. Okay, Sparky?

[IowaBison]

I have nothing to write, but God bless you Sicatoka for changing the subject back to DI.

[WYOBISONMAN]

The indoor training facility would be a big boost to UND....no question about that. I think that with the alum support behind NDSU and UND, both would be very competative in the Big Sky. The biggest challenge would be fielding quality mens BB teams. The bigest hurdle facing UND is the fact that the clock is not yet ticking on the 5 years of purgatory before becoming elegible for playoffs. But, perhaps the Sky would do expansions at 2 different times if the long range plan is to go to a 12 team conference. I am just not sure if that is the goal.

[DamStrait]

I guess the G and H you left out stood for "good humor". Instead of crawling back into my hole, I shall call you Sparky and see if your head explodes. Okay, Sparky?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sparky sez WTF? I see that your posts continue to make as much sense as they ever have - none at all.

[bisonguy]

WYO- UND would have the ticker tocking if they send in the petition to the NCAA by Dec. 1st, along with a check . This year (2004-2005) would then be considered the "exploratory" year, the first of the five purgatory years. This would put UND only one year behind NDSU in the reclassification period. If the UND administration waits until after Dec. 1st, 2005-2006 would be the earliest for the exploratory year to begin.

The smartest thing the UND administration could do (lots of self-control utilized here ) if the DI reclassification is a viable option for UND, would be to send the petition to the NCAA by Dec. 1st IMO. The DII football grant reduction vote outcome could then be realized, and if the legislation doesn't pass, don't proceed with the move to DI. There is no penalty by the NCAA if a school does not reclassify after the exploratory year, and UND could stay in DII and the NCC if that's what's best for UND.

[WYOBISONMAN]

The staggering would make some sense if the Sky new that some of the current teams would be leaving. Right now it seems to me that the biggest threat to leave the Sky is Sac State. Despite some of the heated denials by their fans on the various boards, it appears that athletics at Sac State are in trouble. They have little fans base and are the doormat of the Sky. If Sac leaves there would be only 7 teams in the Sky. I think the hope of most in the Sky is that there be 10 teams in the conference. They have also said that they want all sports to be played by all conference schools and a minimum of 60 FB scholies funded. The big question then is if they take NDSU/SDSU would they also pick up UNC. Or....with UND looking like they are making a jump would it be worth holding the last spot for the Sioux.....all of this is pretty interesting.

In the end and a couple years down the road I think Sac will have left or either be leaving the Sky, NDSU/SDSU will be in as travel partners, and there may well be a slot open for either UNC or UND. If UND is in the mix it would be tough for the Sky to take UNC instead because of what the Bison/Sioux rivalry would bring to the conference. If the Sky were to pick up NDSU/SDSU and UNC this spring it may make it tougher for UND to get into the conference. The timing of this whole thing may play a vital role in what happens. I think it would be very much to UND's advatage to commit to the move sooner rather than later.

[administrator]

Please try to make sure all posts comment on topics of dicussion rather than interpersonally attack other posters.

Ice size discussion split to the more appropriate forum.

[Bisonfan1234]

I think Portland State might also be on the chopping block as they've already had to cut Tennis which is required for BSC membership.

[The Sicatoka]

UND would have the ticker tocking if they send in the petition to the NCAA by Dec. 1st, along with a check .

The NCAA wants money?

Say it ain't so.

[The Sicatoka]

Say the BSC does lose Sac State --> 7

Say Portland State decides travel and exposure is better in a west coast (Big West, WCC) conference --> 6

Buh-bye BSC autobids.

Like I've said, the BSC will do what it believes it has to to keep its autobids. It wouldn't be dumb of the BSC to build in a little margin (add to a total of 10 or 12 teams) in case Montana gets the notion to go DI-A down the road.

[Bisonfan1234]

I could easily see Sac State and Portland State going to a Big West/Great West set up.

I don't think MTSU will move to IA unless the BSC itself moves to IA which probably won't happen unless IAA gets watered down or removed by NCAA changes.

Which would allow NDSU/SDSU to get in maybe as earily as next season or the season after with UND and UNC getting in the following season or maybe even the same season.

[Jamestown]

I could easily see Sac State and Portland State going to a Big West/Great West set up.

I don't think MTSU will move to IA unless the BSC itself moves to IA which probably won't happen unless IAA gets watered down or removed by NCAA changes.

Which would allow NDSU/SDSU to get in maybe as earily as next season or the season after with UND and UNC getting in the following season or maybe even the same season.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is true that the deadline to declare DI intent is December 1. However, this only becomes effective the following school year. UND could not declare it's intent by December 1 and have it effective for the 2004-2005 year. The reclassification period would begin with the 2005-2006 school year.

So if UND notifies the NCAA of it's intent to go DI by 12/01/04 they will only be 2 years behind NDSU. However, if UND notifies the NCAA by 12/01/05, which is more realistic, they will be a full 3 years behind NDSU.

I believe it will be a minimum of 3 years difference, and more than likely 4-5 years. And don't underestimate this difference and the impact on fan support, fundraising, corporate sponsorships, and recruiting.

[bisonguy]

It is true that the deadline to declare DI intent is December 1. However, this only becomes effective the following school year. UND could not declare it's intent by December 1 and have it effective for the 2004-2005 year. The reclassification period would begin with the 2005-2006 school year.

So if UND notifies the NCAA of it's intent to go DI by 12/01/04 they will only be 2 years behind NDSU. However, if UND notifies the NCAA by 12/01/05, which is more realistic, they will be a full 3 years behind NDSU.

I believe it will be a minimum of 3 years difference, and more than likely 4-5 years. And don't underestimate this difference and the impact on fan support, fundraising, corporate sponsorships, and recruiting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is incorrect. Breaking out the NCAA DI Manual, it clearly states in section 20.5.2.1 that the petition must be submitted by Dec. 1st of the exploratory year. 2003/2004 was NDSU's and SDSU's exploratory year. If UND were to submit the petition by Dec. 1st, the 2004/2005 season could be the exploratory year. This would mean UND would only be one year behind NDSU in the reclassification process.

20.5.2.1 Deadline for Submission of Petition. When petitioning for change of division membership, a member shall notify the Division I Management Council Membership Subcommittee on an application approved by the subcommittee. The application shall be received in the national office (by mail or wired transmission) not later than December 1 during the academic year that the institution begins its one-year exploratory period in the reclassification process. Any application received after that date shall be postmarked not later than November 25. A fee of $15,000 shall accompany the application. If the applicant

fails to qualify for active membership, the application fee shall be refunded, less any expenditure for educational costs related to the membership process. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03, 3/10/04)

Sicatoka,

I put the financials in italics. Strange, the NCAA seems to be concerned about $$$$$$

[UND92,96]

A pretty big Heraldo article on the possible move to dI by UND. link

[star2city]

IMO, the most interesting quote from Herald article:

Even so, O'Keefe expects to see UND and NDSU together again before the end of the decade.

"Frankly, today all NDSU has done is make a blind jump, with no conference affiliations other than a loose football alliance, where most schools involved are looking hard for another marriage," O'Keefe said. "They are in big trouble in basketball and their nonrevenue sports, where it appears there are no conferences interested.

"That said, if the Big Sky Conference expands, we have to be interested in going along with (the Bison). If they are invited, which I don't believe would happen without us, I think the Big Sky will actively talk to us at that same time."

O’Keefe’s position allows him to speak more freely than RT or Phil Harmeson, who do not want to antagonize current NCC schools. O’Keefe’s statement has this implication: UND is in the position to be NDSU’s Division I saviour, as the Big Sky will not admit NDSU/SDSU. This may be why UND and NDSU have been in talks, when on the surface one would not expect NDSU to be helpful to UND’s advancement. After all, the Fargo Forum and many other bison boosters want NDSU to be North Dakota’s exclusive DI school for non-hockey sports. So the question: why would the Big Sky expand with NDSU and UND, rather than an NDSU/SDSU combination, which O’Keefe comments implies will not happen? This is rather puzzling, as the travel is not that different, and the media from only one small state (rather than two) would be added to the Big Sky footprint with the SDSU/NDSU combo. IMO, UND brings some large advantages over SDSU, notably a stronger football program, better facilities, and more financial $’s, but are these enough to overcome SDSU’s headstart?

Perhaps the answer may be found in the longer-term goals of NDSU and SDSU. NDSU would be perfectly content being in the Big Sky as long as Montana and Montana State are in it also. Even if SDSU gets a Big Sky invite, the BSC would not bring its alumni the satisfaction Mo Valley membership would. Long term, SDSU lusts after Missouri Valley membership, and would jilt the Big Sky in a second if so offered. IMO, NDSU so values rivalries with Montana schools, it would still prefer the Big Sky even over the Missouri Valley, in spite of the higher prestige of the Mo Valley. If NDSU/SDSU were admitted to the Big Sky, in 2011 when SDSU somehow wrangles an invite from the MO Valley, the Big Sky will be in a poor position: one school in the Upper Midwest isolated from the rest of the conference with horrible travel costs. Also, the Mid-Con (which is a queue of schools wanting entrance to the MO Valley), probably will take SDSU within a year or two with much less financial (no upping of football scholarships and fixing up Coughlin) and other travel demands on the Jackrabbits. Most bison fans find the idea of the Mid-Con revolting. So the solution: NDSU and SDSU go their separate ways with NDSU being a reluctant suitor of UND as their Big Sky travel partner. The Big Sky will not risk expanding east unless there are firm long-term commitments of fidelity, which it will receive from UND and NDSU.

As a side note, on the d2football board a U Mary fan states that Mary will not join the NCC, but rather the NSIC. What is the sense of that, unless UND is no longer is the NCC? Mary/UND games would be huge draws in Bismarck and bring U Mary a lot more prestige, much more so than a Mary/Northern State game, it closest likely potential NSIC rival. The NCC would almost certainly take U Mary, but if there is no NCC stability, why should Mary administrators take the chance? If UND leaves, perhaps both UNO and USD may gain admission to a 12-team MIAA, while the rest of the NCC would be forced into the NSIC.

[tony]

Much like NDSU's football team and fans, UND's alumni association sounds like they are overlooking SDSU. 12,300+ and a win over NDSU - that has to look good to the Sky. I wonder if there is a chance USD or UMD will look harder at DI because, contrary to O'Keefe's belief, you can travel south of Fargo on I-29 as well as north.

I still think its kind of weak to say a scholarship cut would force UND to do anything when it's been clear one has been in the works for a decade. However, I gotta admit that if they do cut it to 24, that's a whole different animal. You'd have to have been blind not to see 30 or 32 coming, but 24... that would be the biggest change to DII football since 75% of the top programs left for DI-AA 25 years ago.

[UND92,96]

Much like NDSU's football team and fans, UND's alumni association sounds like they are overlooking SDSU. 12,300+ and a win over NDSU - that has to look good to the Sky. I wonder if there is a chance USD or UMD will look harder at DI because, contrary to O'Keefe's belief, you can travel south of Fargo on I-29 as well as north.

On the surface, one would agree with you, but it's also quite conceivable that given his position and connections, O'Keefe knows something we don't. Regarding SDSU's win over NDSU last night, who cares in the scheme of things? Does that really change the fact that they've never done anything in football, or that they're only at 38 scholies? This is hardly the first time they've upset somebody in Brookings, but the fact remains that an 8-3 season is cause for celebration at SDSU, whereas it's a down year for UND or NDSU.

[bisonguy]

...and the spin campaign is on!

Maybe O'Keefe's positition/opinion is being used to garner support amongst the UND alumni and fans that has been in stark oppostion to NDSU's move and such a move to DI by UND:huh: .