new DII schools!

[NDSU grad]

Minot State would sometimes fill the lower bowl of the Dome for big conference games in the late 80's. I would guess that would be close to 5000 people. I think they would do ok attendance-wise for bball, but having never attended a Beaver football game I can't comment on the football program.

[BostonSiouxFan]

With the support they enjoy in Bismarck, Mary would be able to fund all the scholarships. Mary could be a tough competitor with solid attendance figures.

I can only hope you say this in jest. Division II is in serious trouble when the likes of the University of Mary contemplate a move to its ranks.

I was perfectly fine with UND staying put when NDSU left, but if more of these types of schools move into Division II and continue to water down the quality (and I fear continue to cut scholarships), UND has to look at a move a la NDSU. I for one just hope (and I assume this is the case) that the university has some sort of committee looking into what a move up would entail.

[BigGame]

I can only hope you say this in jest. Division II is in serious trouble when the likes of the University of Mary contemplate a move to its ranks.

I was perfectly fine with UND staying put when NDSU left, but if more of these types of schools move into Division II and continue to water down the quality (and I fear continue to cut scholarships), UND has to look at a move a la NDSU. I for one just hope (and I assume this is the case) that the university has some sort of committee looking into what a move up would entail.

I think your wrong about Mary, I don't think they will water down d2 any more than it already is. They already have a football team that could compete with many d2 school and will only get better if they add more scholarships and start recruiting as a d2 school instead of NAIA. It will likely be a few years, but I feel that they have the capability to being a mid to higher level d2 team. They are also very successful in many other sports and make UND track and field look like a joke.

I agree with you if you are considering Minot State, Jamestown, Dakotas State and teams like that moving up. Mary is in a completely different situation then those schools.

[dakotadan]

If someone can honestly tell me that RT does not have a DI plan in his pocket and mean it, I will be impressed. So NDSU went DI(AA). The only reason that RT did not want to go at the same time is the fact that right now UND teams are challenging for DII NCs. If anyone can tell me RT is honestly not sitting back watching every single move NDSU is makeing and not taking notes, I will laugh. The only reason UND did not also push for the NCC to move to DI is the fact that in the next couple of years we have some prettty good chances of winning a national championship in a few sports. Why pass that up? Roger is going to watch every single thing that happens to NDSU, take note, and hope that we win NCs in a few sports real quick. When we are moving to DI what looks better than a hand full of national championships? With all of our new arenas, our alumni association pushing for more money in the bank to sponsor scholorships, hopefully a few more national championships, and NDSU now officially DI, can anyone honestly tell me that UND will not be completely DI in the future?

These are some quotes from the May 26, 2004 IAC meeting.

Schedules: John Sirignano passed out proposed schedules for soccer and volleyball. Elizabeth Nichols asked if it was normal for such a high percentage of soccer games to be road games. John Sirignano said it was difficult to get teams to travel to Grand Forks for a single game. Previously, teams could schedule NDSU on the same road trip. Ray Diez moved to approve the volleyball and soccer schedules for 2004-05. Bruce Smith seconded. Motion carried.

NCC Meetings: Roger Thomas reported that the NCC spring meetings were held in Alexandria, MN, May 17 and 18. NDSU and SDSU were recognized at the opening but were not participants in the meetings that followed. Minnesota Duluth took part as a full member for the first time. There are currently 7 league members and no other school is actively pursuing admission into the NCC. Fewer teams in the league impacts budgets because of more non-conference games, higher travel costs and larger game guarantees.There was also discussion of having affiliated members, such as Moorhead State for swimming.

I am sure that UND is going to sit around and watch NDSU play DI while we go swimming with Moorhead!!!!!

[bisonguy]

The only reason that RT did not want to go at the same time is the fact that right now UND teams are challenging for DII NCs. NDSU isn't.

NDSU has won two DII national championships(wrestling 2001, women's track 2002) and had several runner-ups since UND won their last championship(football, 2001). Matter of fact, NDSU has the same number of DII championships in the last four years (4) as UND has since the inception of DII.

If that's RT's thinking, it's severely flawed

[dakotadan]

There bisonguy. I changed that part of my post. Does that make you happy?

[star2city]

NDSU has won two DII national championships(wrestling 2001, women's track 2002) and had several runner-ups since UND won their last championship(football, 2001). Matter of fact, NDSU has the same number of DII championships in the last four years (4) as UND has since the inception of DII.

If that's RT's thinking, it's severely flawed 

Find me one bisson fan that wouldn't trade those four minor-sport championships for one home football playoff game. You'll be hard pressed. And to think that a whole generation or more of bisson fans will have passed through the Fargo Dome and have never witnessed a playoff game. No wonder the Fargo Dome atmosphere is like a masoleum: the fans have lost any memory of the excitement of a playoff game.

[star2city]

I can only hope you say this in jest. Division II is in serious trouble when the likes of the University of Mary contemplate a move to its ranks.

I was perfectly fine with UND staying put when NDSU left, but if more of these types of schools move into Division II and continue to water down the quality (and I fear continue to cut scholarships), UND has to look at a move a la NDSU. I for one just hope (and I assume this is the case) that the university has some sort of committee looking into what a move up would entail.

I can certainly understand a level of concern if the U of Mary were brought into the NCC. Because of history, it certainly seems like a step down in competition for UND. But considering that for much of the last century we played Morningside routinely, U of Mary is already above Morningside’s level now in every sport except maybe men’s basketball. It is also likely that U of Mary would be even more commmitted to intercollegiate athletics than Augustana currently is and would have greater fan support in Bismarck than Augustana has in much larger Sioux Falls.

There is another reason to consider U of Mary: their membership in the NCC could foster more support for the Fighting Sioux in the western part of the state. Neither UND athletics (nor NDSU athletics) gets all that much media attention except for hockey and football radio broadcasts in the west. With the existence of a western ND NCC team, UND athletic teams would enjoy a higher western profile, probably even higher than if UND went Div I (at least initially). Admitting the U of Mary could actually negate the extra publicity NDSU is attempting to garner in the west by going Div I and would bring a lot goodwill toward UND by counteracting the west’s view of an “arrogant” eastern ND. As an aside, the political alignment in North Dakota is also changing. What was formerly an east vs west, or an urban vs rural alignment, is changing politically to a metro Fargo vs. rest of the state alignment. By admitting U of Mary, the “rest of the state” and even a substantial minority of Fargo would be solidly NCC country. Only if NDSU ever gets in a regional conference and has success in Div I would this change.

In the four NCC states, the ideal remaining media cities in which the NCC could select a school are Bismarck, Rochester, Grand Island, Rapid City, and, of course, the Twin Cities. Rapid City really doesn’t have a school capable, while Rochester and Grand Island have nearby schools. If the final NCC map included a Twin Cities school, the U of Mary, and UN-Kearney, the conference would be solid both from a media and travel perspective. Ten schools would also ensure the survival of the NCC (and the NSIC), even if two NCC schools later moved up to Div I.

[RD17]

There's an interesting article in today's Minot newspaper about the Beaver athletic department. It certainly looks like Minot State is making a major push to improve its athletics and if they are successful, they'll almost certainly outgrow the DAC 10.

Scholarship dollars making difference at MSU

Some snippets:

In 2002-03, the Beaver Boosters awarded $116,000 in scholarship money; that figure jumped to $155,000 in 2003-04. It is projected to be more than $186,000 for the upcoming school year.

"We've made great strides in the last year and we're continually working to go to even a higher level," McNally said. "Our ultimate goal, which is still a few years down the line, is to fully endow our athletic program to 100 percent scholarships."

Even though Minot State has some of the top facilities in the conference and the NAIA, Hedberg indicated that there is still room for improvement. He cited a possible cooperative effort with the high schools in Minot to study a community bowl-type project, similar to the one in Bismarck, that could house new football and track facilities. He also indicated that the school would be interested in joining forces in the possible development of another baseball facility.

And this makes star2city look prophetic:

While both Hedberg and Fuller believe that the current path of the school's athletic programs is headed in a positive direction, neither is ruling, butthe possibility of expansion. Hedberg said that soccer, wrestling and even ice hockey could maybe get some consideration if sports were to be added to the current roster.

"I am not opposed to hockey," Hedberg said. "When I was at UND I was exposed to it and saw excellence in athletics."

[The Sicatoka]

If someone can honestly tell me that RT does not have a DI plan in his pocket and mean it, I will be impressed.

If anyone can tell me RT is honestly not sitting back watching every single move NDSU is makeing and not taking notes, I will laugh.

Roger is going to watch every single thing that happens to NDSU, take  note, and hope that we win NCs in a few sports real quick.

With all of our new arenas, our alumni association pushing for more money in the bank to sponsor scholorships, hopefully a few more national championships, and NDSU now officially DI, can anyone honestly tell me that UND will not be completely DI in the future?

I guess I see things the same way, with the note that it's not just Roger Thomas, but Phil Harmenson and Tim O'Keefe watching also. I base my views on this link to IAC minutes.

Phil Harmeson indicated that the situation is constantly being looked at and assessed, ...

[WYOBISONMAN]

I don't think you can sell Mary short. They have a lot of support and are very much a growing institution. I would say the other DAC 10 schools would be bad for D2, but Mary would be very good. Much better than many schools getting into D2 in other parts of the country. Hell, take a look at North Greenville if you want to see a joke that ought to not be in D2. I also think there may be some potential for Minot State because of the size of the community and the quality of the facilities. But......Mary would be a high quality addition to D2.

[tony]

I think Mary would be a pretty nice addition to the NCC. Like Star2City wrote, it'll increase the presence of the NCC and UND in the western part of the state. I think it'd give the NCC a larger profile than any school in the Twin Cities because the NCC will be a big media story in Bismarck whereas it doesn't matter which DII or DIII school you pick in MSP, none of them are ever going to get any meaningful coverage from the media in the Twin Cities. Beyond that, if the NCC can pick off a strong member of the DAC 10, they will go along way to reducing the likelihood of the a big chunk of the DAC 10 forming a new DII conference in the area (and I think that'd be bad for the NCC). If the NSIC picks off Jamestown and/or Minot later, so much the better.

OTOH, star2city, I didn't appreciate that part of your position made it into a UND versus NDSU thing. Everything good for UND isn't necessarily bad for NDSU and vice versa. For example, increasing UND's exposure in western ND doesn't necessarily mean the NDSU's exposure will lessen - and even if it did lessen NDSU's exposure, I fail to see why that is a goal UND should be striving for.

Please tell me that you aren't one of those people who think that any success by NDSU is a blow to UND and that failure by NDSU is as good as success for UND. That's a horrible way to approach things.

As NDSU and UND are in different divisions now, no amount of success by NDSU or UND should be coming at the other's expense. At least that's what I was hoping.

[star2city]

OTOH, star2city, I didn't appreciate that part of your position made it into a UND versus NDSU thing. Everything good for UND isn't necessarily bad for NDSU and vice versa. For example, increasing UND's exposure in western ND doesn't necessarily mean the NDSU's exposure will lessen - and even if it did lessen NDSU's exposure, I fail to see why that is a goal UND should be striving for.

Please tell me that you aren't one of those people who think that any success by NDSU is a blow to UND and that failure by NDSU is as good as success for UND. That's a horrible way to approach things.

Tony:

Your posting is incredibly magnanimous, suspiciously so. In education, all parties can and should be winners. Same as in macroeconomics: the US standard of living has been rising almost continuously. But in sports, there are winners and losers. That’s part of the joy (or agony) of it. As far as UND vs NDSU athletics, a rivalry will continue, only the form has changed to a business rivalry. When NDSU left the NCC, it dissolved what business partnership there was. NDSU has stated it wants more regional and national publicity. That means it wants more sports coverage in, for example, the Bismarck Tribune, which is one of only two newspapers in ND that has statewide influence. Unless the Bismarck Tribune goes to smaller print or more pages, some other subject will get less press if NDSU gets more. It’s that simple. You seem to fault my competitive argument as a character flaw, when it is a natural and proper outcome of a business rivalry. There is only so much discretionary income available for entertainment spending.

If you think I wish NDSU evil or something, you’re sadly mistaken. I have no problem stating that NDSU’s (and North Dakota’s) deal with Alien Technology can be a economic turning point for the state. (BTW, the NDSU collaboration with the well-respected combinatorial chemistry company Symyx could be another important beginning, IMO.) As far as NDSU’s athletic teams, I certainly hope they don’t embarrass North Dakota. A really fertile ground to preach this message would seem to be Bisonville (ever heard of it? ), as there seems an inordinate proportion of its populace holds completely irrational and destructive views of UND. They need an example in mature discourse.

[tony]

Well, I am very critical of UND and Grand Forks from time to time but that doesn't mean I wish them ill. Heck, I wish they'd just with they'd stop doing the things I dislike

Your analogy that NDSU and UND are business competitors is flawed. NDSU and UND are more like divisions of the same company, the state of ND. As such, there are limits on the nature of their competitiveness. For example, there must be a willingness to let the other institution pursue their own goals even if the other institution finds them unworthy. Of course, two fair-minded people might not always agree on what type of competition is acceptable, but I think they could formulate some general rules of thumb.

On the most basic level, UND and NDSU are not athletic competitors. NCAA Division II is a different market than NCAA Division I so no win by UND can ever take anything away from NDSU and vice versa. NDSU and UND are competing for student-athletes and little else. Even this competition should have its limits.

PS

If you are suspicious, maybe you are projecting... then again, I only went to my introductory pysch class twice

[The Sicatoka]

star2city said, "As far as UND vs NDSU athletics, a rivalry will continue, only the form has changed to a business rivalry."

There is no flaw in that statement (note the word athletics).

They are competing for the area sports fan's attention, and dollar, and there is no distinction between divisions in that realm: "Who (which players, team) does the fan want to watch, who catches their attention, and why?" The answer to that will be different for each fan. Each athletic program will do what it deems necessary to try to capture fans (aka market share).

[WYOBISONMAN]

.....as far as market share and to relate this discussion back to the original topic....if I happened to be visiting western ND (I am from Williston) while UND were playing Mary in a NCC football match.....I would be on the road to Bismarck in a heart beat to watch.

[tony]

Um, in a business rivalry, driving your competitors out of business is considered a victory. Businesses don't have serving the public as part of their mission statement either.

Surely, even you (The Sicatoka) can admit that UND and NDSU are more like divisions of the same company than separate, competing companies, can't you?

And, yeah, you may be talking just about athletics, but I am not. I'm talking about the relationship between the two universities, including athletics.

Just saw Wyobisonman's post. This is a perfect example. If he goes to Mary v UND game, it doesn't really hurt NDSU. UND has "grown their business" without any meaningful effect on NDSU because he isn't choosing Mary over NDSU, he's going to a game when otherwise he would not.

[PCM]

Businesses don't have serving the public as part of their mission statement either.

Really? Who buys their goods and services? Martians?

[The Sicatoka]

We're talking in the Football forum of SiouxSports.com: Athletics realm. Athletics conversation. That's where my post was aimed.

(For another forum and another time, UND and NDSU are each members of the NDUS. As arms of the same 'company', why did one arm duplicate an existing corporate product line recently? Would a division of Microsoft start marketing another spreadsheet to compete with Excel?)

As far as the WYOBISONMAN scenario, UMary and UND win: They got attention from WYOBISONMAN that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Think about it....yes, the UND-NDSU rivalry was intense in North Dakota, but a Mary/UND game would pit East against West.....and in North Dakota that is extremely intense. There is not a lot of love for the Red River Valley in Williston and I think the western football fans would really be hot for a clash of such proportions. It would be damn interesting to watch.

[SiouxMeNow]

You guys are UNBELIEVABLE!! okay...we BOW DOWN to YOU as the ONLY DI (ha) institution in ND but now you're try to sell us on a UND/MARY rivalry to replace NDSU?? That is an extremely laughable JOKE!! Almost as much of a joke as NDSU "replacing" UND with SDSU and creating a stupid concrete "marker" to "REPLACE" the nickel and making it sound like it's just as important!! We are on to you...(ESPECIALLY YOU TONY!!) Go have fun with the BratWORST conference...wait...I think the Big Sky might be thinking about expanding....HEY - WHERE DID YOU GO??? DID YOU ABANDON YOUR NEW CONFERENCE AT THE DROP OF A HAT FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT?? yeah - you would...and BITCH about anyone else who thought of doing that....crawl off and die you self-serving bastards!!!

I'm SIOUXMENOW and RT approved that message!!!

[WYOBISONMAN]

Obviously you have a lack of understanding of North Dakota issues if you think an East/West rivalry wouldn't be intense. No offense, but you must be from Minnesota....

[Jack Mickleson]

The Bison will do ok but not great

[SiouxMeNow]

I'm FROM western ND (Crosby to be exact - one of the stops on the Inaugural Craig Bohl tour) and I can scream at the top of my lungs into western ND and no one will hear me...my point was you guys are touting a "UND/MARY" rivalry so you can go on your own board and say...yeah...WE"RE PLAYING EAST PODUNK STATE (A DI-aa) school and UND has their BIG RIVALRY GAME AGAINST MARY coming up..."what a bunch of Mary's!!!"....nice try but we're not suckers!!

[WYOBISONMAN]

If Mary were to join the NCC they would be no slouch. There is some very big money in Bismarck and some big money that would back the Mary jump. They would soon compete with the best of the NCC. And they would do so because they would be the biggest show (athletic wise) in Bismarck. It's about money.....not the size of the school. It all would make for great competition. You wouldn't find me bad mouthing Mary..........and I am Lutheran!!

Last I checked Sioux fans were a scarce as hens teeth in Crosby.....how do I know? I was born there.... Mary would have more fans because it is the WEST.