Question about changing the nickname and logo

[Goon]

  We had over 300 in 2001.  Unfortunately, like most, we value our time away from this place and it just so happen to be a 4 day weekend for the students.  Our turnout was better than I thought.

  But that's beside the point.  I don't care if there's 4 protesters (like during the 30 below World Jrs) or 10000000, the fact of the matter is that the majority of the Federally recognized Sioux Tribes have asked that the University change its names

  (this protest was much smaller, the one in 2001 had over 300 uniformed officers as well as snipers, just in case we rushed the "new" statute and spit on it or something.  This one only had 1 officer...lol)

  Thanks for your question

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why don't you find an issue that is more important and pressing to be worried about. This is such a trivial matter and frankly your wasting your breath. We will not in our life time see the UND Fighting Sioux name changed.

[ESPNInsider]

[dakotadan]

I don't know what Delta Gamma is, I assume its a frat/sorority.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would appreciate it if you called it a fraternity, not a frat. Frat is so stereotypical and makes outsiders hate us FRAT boys even more.

[ESPNInsider]

More complaining on something that looks like a pretty harmless situation:

quick read

[Goon]

Why come into this topic if you feel this way.  It is pretty easy for you to just not click on it if you don't want to discuss it. 

I also think it is funny that you say we are wasting our breath and then spout off some personal insight!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think its funny how all of these people think that UND is just going to change the name its not going to happen. The NCAA can recommend all it wants to have UND change its name but I believe its a mute point.

[siouxtatoo42]

I would appreciate it if you called it a fraternity, not a frat. Frat is so stereotypical and makes outsiders hate us FRAT boys even more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i saw the smily face, and understand your joke, but damn, most of the FRAT boys i've met fit the stereotype better than if they were trying to fit it.

[sauce]

This whole thing is such bs. I think both sides of this issue are ridiculous. The people for changing the name don't seem to consider the reality that a bunch of narrow-minded, racist and ignorant sore losers are probably going to make life almost unbearable on campus for students and faculty who fought for the name change, particularily American Indian students. Oh, and when you are asking people to respect you and not degrade you by using offensive names and stereotypes, it is a good idea not to mimick those behaviors yourself. Kinda counter productive and hypocritical, right Kracker?

Then you got the people on the side of keeping the name... total bs'ers! I mean, please, can you people give up the lame tradition argument. Come on! I've followed UND sports all my life, ITS ALL ABOUT THE SPORTS- the great athletes, the coaches, the fans. That's the story that's the tradition. Period. You people who get so caught up in a name and logo, I have wonder, if you are really true fans or if you are just the people who go to the Ralph to be "seen" or cuz its what everyone else does. do you sip martinis in the luxury boxes?

Just look at the hockey team. The historic rise of the UND men

[DamStrait]

...particularily American Indian students...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no."

Source: Peter Harris Research Group, Inc., as reported in Sports Illustrated, March 4, 2002, page 69.

Methodology: The pollsters interviewed 351 Native Americans (217 living on reservations, 134 living off). The responses were weighted according to US census figures for age, race, gender, and the distribution of Native Americans living on and off reservations.

Margin of error: Plus or minus 4 percent.

[dakotadan]

This whole thing is such bs.

[sauce]

[ESPNInsider]

[ScottM]

please excuse me, just wanted to vent and deliver a needed reality check to all parties. <thanks>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that's your idea of a "reality check", you may want to consider another line of work.

[dakotadan]

So if you build a building, then its okay to use the name?

[sauce]

[dakotadan]

[sauce]

Actually

[dakotadan]

Actually

[bigmrg74]

4 posts, all of them in the Name Forum.

[SiouxMeNow]

God I hate "UND GRAD" trolls causing trouble on this board...get a life dude!! Disregard all the "Saucy" crap!!

[LeftyZL]

Tradition: "The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication."

Cling: :To hold fast or adhere to something, as by grasping, sticking, embracing."

Sauce: "For people to cling to the name seems to minimize that history and the dedicated people who have played a role in creating that history."

---The definition of "cling" includes to embrace something or someone, which i think this University does as a whole. How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history? Granted, some people aren't from this area, but a lot of people are and understand what this name means to this university. Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic. Thats what bothers me the most on this topic...everyone that wants to change the name basically says over and over that we don't understand the history or what the Sioux people did in the past...if thats the case, then maybe a member of the Sioux tribe or someone with vast knowledge of it should sit down one weekend and invite the entire community to a learning session about the Sioux tribe/people at REA. I think it would be beneficial for everyone.

Another thing, ask any Sioux athlete who they play for and it will be for the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux...Every player understands when they put on that jersey who they are playing for, there is a tremendous amount of respect shown by the players that put on those jerseys. They are honestly grateful and humbled at the same time. They realize the magnitude of the name and the logo that comes with it. Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey. So to say it's not about tradition, I think you're mistaken. Athletes take a lot of pride in what they do/say and who they represent as a whole. Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.

Also, it would make a helleuva difference if we weren't called the Sioux, just like if the Gophers weren't called the Gophers. Everyone knows it would. If we changed the name, at the end of the national anthem everyone would still yell "Sioux" just like they do now. To have a few hundred/thousand people upset over the name compared to the the thousands that embrace it around here and the entire country I think is OK. That just means that everyone can have their opinion. It doesn't make my opinion any better than yours. We each get one vote. Welcome to the USA....Just one man's opinion though.

[sauce]

Tradition:  "The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication."

Cling:  :To hold fast or adhere to something, as by grasping, sticking, embracing."

Sauce:  "For people to cling to the name seems to minimize that history and the dedicated people who have played a role in creating that history."

---The definition of "cling" includes to embrace something or someone, which i think this University does as a whole.  How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history?  Granted, some people aren't from this area, but a lot of people are and understand what this name means to this university.  Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history.  You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe.  You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic.  Thats what bothers me the most on this topic...everyone that wants to change the name basically says over and over that we don't understand the history or what the Sioux people did in the past...if thats the case, then maybe a member of the Sioux tribe or someone with vast knowledge of it should sit down one weekend and invite the entire community to a learning session about the Sioux tribe/people at REA.  I think it would be beneficial for everyone.

Another thing, ask any Sioux athlete who they play for and it will be for the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux...Every player understands when they put on that jersey who they are playing for, there is a tremendous amount of respect shown by the players that put on those jerseys.  They are honestly grateful and humbled at the same time.  They realize the magnitude of the name and the logo that comes with it.  Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey.  So to say it's not about tradition, I think you're mistaken.  Athletes take a lot of pride in what they do/say and who they represent as a whole.  Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived. 

Also, it would make a helleuva difference if we weren't called the Sioux, just like if the Gophers weren't called the Gophers.  Everyone knows it would.  If we changed the name, at the end of the national anthem everyone would still yell "Sioux" just like they do now.  To have a few hundred/thousand people upset over the name compared to the the thousands that embrace it around here and the entire country I think is OK.  That just means that everyone can have their opinion.  It doesn't make my opinion any better than yours.  We each get one vote.  Welcome to the USA....Just one man's opinion though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, wow, Hey thanks! Someone with an interesting perspective and some ideas instead of the usual shoot the messanger crap that everyone else on this board has been spewing. I just joined the board last week, so what if I've just been lurking around the rest of the website and haven't posted, give me a break. So, anyway thanks for the cognitive thoughts, I was getting worried!

I agree with you that people would still yell "Sioux" after the name is changed. In fact this is one area where I think name change advocates aren't being realistic. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but it seems like many of them think that once the name changes all the problems relating to the racism directed toward American Indians on this campus will cease. Of course, and most unfortunately, that probably won't be the case.

A few responses to your thoughtful comments: <<"Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.">>>

What? that's just wacky. You really think athletes and coaches want to play "exactly like how the Sioux lived?" Do you think any of them even have a clue how the Sioux lived? Come on, that's ridiculous and irrational. Sounds pretty, but doesn't hold up under the weight of logic and common sense.

<<"Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic.">>>

Look, I hate to be cynical, but I just don't buy it. I mean, you seem like someone that would fall into that category, but, sadly, I think you're in the minority. The evidence suggests that most people couldn't care less about actually learning about Sioux culture. Let me ask you this, how many people step around the Eagle feathers of the logo on the marble floors at the Ralph? The reason I ask is because those who know about plains Indian cultures like the Sioux could tell you that the Eagle was an incredibly sacred and revered creature. To attain eagle feathers required two warriors. They would go out and dig a hole and then one of them would get inside. the other one would cover the hole with brush and then put some bait on the brush. When the eagle swooped down, the warrior inside the hole would grab the eagle (can you imagine!) and the other warrior would bag the eagle. So, the eagle and the feathers which symbolize the eagle are highly respected. It seems to me, that if you really wanted to honor and respect Sioux culture, you would walk around those sacred feathers when walking through the Ralph. It seems to me that, the University would refrain from putting the logo and its feathers on center court or center ice only to be run and skated over. I remember reading a few years ago that the Chair of the Indian Studies department at the time and some Native students and faculty were upset about the new logo being placed on the Hylsop court. Yet, the University went ahead and put it there anyway. Sure you could say, 'who cares if a handful of people didn't want it, majority rules.' But, if you're trying to say that the UND athletic community strives to be respectful, then it seems to me that you honor such a sensible request. Look, I really, really apologize if I come across as upitty, but it seems to me that people can talk honor all they want, but its the actions that really count.

Who knows, maybe the name can be a positive by highlighting occurances like this and using them to educate people about American Indian culture. Maybe we need a mandatory class or workshop where students learn about the Sioux culture. Heck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to send out some educational material to the alumni. Maybe you are correct that a community education event on Sioux culture would be helpful (although, I suggest a venue with less stigma, like the Alerus Center). I don't know, but when people are buying and selling stuff like H-Sioux-O water and then talking about honor, it shows that we obviously have some work to do.

Let me respond to one more of your comments and then I gotta go. <<"How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history?">>>

Actually, you don't even need me to answer that question for you as you answer it for yourself later on in your post. <<"Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey.">>

See, that's where the Natives I know who are against the use of the name get angry. They would say that your dipiction of the culture as Warriors is a simplification and stereotype of the culture. I would agree with them. While I have a great deal more to learn about Sioux culture, the more I have learned the more I begin to understand that while these people were and are (don't forget that American Indians, including the Sioux, serve in our Armed Forces in higher percentages than any other group) great warriors their culture emcompasses so much more than the warrior ethos. They have a very complex and beautiful spirituality. In fact, it is my understanding that other tribes throughout the continent have borrowed spiritual rituals from the Sioux because their traditions are so much more intact. Then of course there is the artistry, the songs, the dances, the games, ect. By oversimplifying the culture and focusing exclusively on the warrior facet of it, you are basically trying to freeze that culture in time (like around the time of Custer). In doing so you MINIMIZE THE HISTORY OF THE SIOUX PEOPLE

[The Sicatoka]

Let me ask you this, how many people step around the Eagle feathers of the logo on the marble floors at the Ralph?

[bisonguy]

However, by your own theory NDSU should remove their logo from the middle of its basketball floor for the same reason: the bison is considered sacred, as the eagle (and hence eagle feather) is, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The bison being considered sacred is a Sioux concept, not a bison one.

The whole granite eagle feather argument is presented in the context of Sioux concepts and beliefs.

[sauce]

Oh, wow, Hey thanks! Someone with an interesting perspective and some ideas instead of the usual shoot the messanger crap that everyone else on this board has been spewing. I just joined the board last week, so what if I've just been lurking around the rest of the website and haven't posted, give me a break. So, anyway thanks for the cognitive thoughts, I was getting worried!

I agree with you that people would still yell "Sioux" after the name is changed. In fact this is one area where I think name change advocates aren't being realistic. Perhaps I'm being unfair, but it seems like many of them think that once the name changes all the problems relating to the racism directed toward American Indians on this campus will cease. Of course, and most unfortunately, that probably won't be the case.

A few responses to your thoughtful comments: <<"Each team has its own tradition, but the entire athletic program has a completely separate tradition with the Sioux name and logo that every team symbolizes and wants to play exactly like how the Sioux lived.">>>

What? that's just wacky. You really think athletes and coaches want to play "exactly like how the Sioux lived?" Do you think any of them even have a clue how the Sioux lived? Come on, that's ridiculous and irrational. Sounds pretty, but doesn't hold up under the weight of logic and common sense.

<<"Don't assume that we know nothing about the Sioux tribe, it's people, or its history. You'd be surprised I think at what we do know or the amount of people that take the time to try to understand the history and culture of the Sioux tribe. You'd be suprised how many students take a class on Sioux history or Native American history in general because we are intrigued and interested in the topic.">>>

Look, I hate to be cynical, but I just don't buy it. I mean, you seem like someone that would fall into that category, but, sadly, I think you're in the minority. The evidence suggests that most people couldn't care less about actually learning about Sioux culture. Let me ask you this, how many people step around the Eagle feathers of the logo on the marble floors at the Ralph? The reason I ask is because those who know about plains Indian cultures like the Sioux could tell you that the Eagle was an incredibly sacred and revered creature. To attain eagle feathers required two warriors. They would go out and dig a hole and then one of them would get inside. the other one would cover the hole with brush and then put some bait on the brush. When the eagle swooped down, the warrior inside the hole would grab the eagle (can you imagine!) and the other warrior would bag the eagle. So, the eagle and the feathers which symbolize the eagle are highly respected. It seems to me, that if you really wanted to honor and respect Sioux culture, you would walk around those sacred feathers when walking through the Ralph. It seems to me that, the University would refrain from putting the logo and its feathers on center court or center ice only to be run and skated over. I remember reading a few years ago that the Chair of the Indian Studies department at the time and some Native students and faculty were upset about the new logo being placed on the Hylsop court. Yet, the University went ahead and put it there anyway. Sure you could say, 'who cares if a handful of people didn't want it, majority rules.' But, if you're trying to say that the UND athletic community strives to be respectful, then it seems to me that you honor such a sensible request. Look, I really, really apologize if I come across as upitty, but it seems to me that people can talk honor all they want, but its the actions that really count.

Who knows, maybe the name can be a positive by highlighting occurances like this and using them to educate people about American Indian culture. Maybe we need a mandatory class or workshop where students learn about the Sioux culture. Heck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to send out some educational material to the alumni. Maybe you are correct that a community education event on Sioux culture would be helpful (although, I suggest a venue with less stigma, like the Alerus Center). I don't know, but when people are buying and selling stuff like H-Sioux-O water and then talking about honor, it shows that we obviously have some work to do.

Let me respond to one more of your comments and then I gotta go. <<"How has this university minimized the history of the Sioux people and minimized the people who have played a role in creating that history?">>>

Actually, you don't even need me to answer that question for you as you answer it for yourself later on in your post. <<"Every coach tells them to honor them on their respective court/ice sheet/etc...exactly how they want everyone to remember them...as Warriors....They want to play with respect, courage, toughness, etc...and show everyone that they are truly honored to be wearing that jersey.">>

See, that's where the Natives I know who are against the use of the name get angry. They would say that your dipiction of the culture as Warriors is a simplification and stereotype of the culture. I would agree with them. While I have a great deal more to learn about Sioux culture, the more I have learned the more I begin to understand that while these people were and are (don't forget that American Indians, including the Sioux, serve in our Armed Forces in higher percentages than any other group) great warriors their culture emcompasses so much more than the warrior ethos. They have a very complex and beautiful spirituality. In fact, it is my understanding that other tribes throughout the continent have borrowed spiritual rituals from the Sioux because their traditions are so much more intact. Then of course there is the artistry, the songs, the dances, the games, ect. By oversimplifying the culture and focusing exclusively on the warrior facet of it, you are basically trying to freeze that culture in time (like around the time of Custer). In doing so you MINIMIZE THE HISTORY OF THE SIOUX PEOPLE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It should also be noted that by focusing solely on the warrior facet of the culture, you are essentially ignoring the women of the culture, as they were not the warriors. they did the work of gardening, cooking, childrearing, ect.

[LeftyZL]