IAA Playoff Sham

[nodakvindy]

Bison fans that think fleeing D2 means an end to playoff politics may be in for a rude awakening. A close friend of mine who is a Southern Illinois alum has been following the Salukis closely all year. They finished the season 10-1, co-champs of the Gateway Conference, their only blemish a 43-40 road loss to Northern Iowa. For this they earn a trip to 11-1 Delaware, the number two seed in the playoffs. Meanwhile 9-2 Northern Iowa hosts Montana State, a club with five losses, including one to Northern Colorado. Also, Western Kentucky (who the Salukis beat) and Montana each host games despite having three losses. Just goes to show that this stuff goes on at all levels.

[Bisonfan1234]

I think the main thing we're hoping to get away from is that the top 16 teams in the nation get in... versus the top 4 from each reigon.

If we had this system in D2, no doubt NDSU would be in.

[WYOBISONMAN]

While D1AA may have a few problems too, it is a hell of a lot better than the D2 system.

[UND92,96]

I think the main thing we're hoping to get away from is that the top 16 teams in the nation get in... versus the top 4 from each reigon.

If we had this system in D2, no doubt NDSU would be in.

I don't believe the I-AA system necessarily puts the top 16 teams in. Eight conferences get an auto bid, which allows a team like Montana St. to get in despite its five losses. If they are one of the top 16 teams in I-AA, it doesn't speak very highly of the division. The Big Sky must have been really down this year. The supposed top two teams from that league both lost at home to essentially division II teams. True, UNC is technically I-AA but they probably put the same team on the field that they would have had they still been division II.

The I-AA system would have gotten IUP and Catawba in, but I don't think NDSU would have been in anyway with three losses and only eight at-large bids from around the country. In any event, it's a moot point.

[nodakvindy]

What's better about it? MEAC Champ North Carolina A&T was jobbed similar to So. Illinois. They defeated Bethune Cookman, but hit the road while Bethune Cookman gets a home game. What good is winning the league if you aren't rewarded? I'll agree the region thing is weak, but that affects one, maybe two teams at most. Who would you have replaced in this year's D2 field if it wasn't regional, and who would you replace them with.

If D2 had a playoff system like 1AA, there would be 8 autobids, likely to the following: RMAC, Lone Star, NCC, MIAA, Gulf South, SAC, GLIAC, PSAC

The 1AA system might let one more deserving team in, and might allow conference foes to battle for a national championship rather than a regional final, but there is little practical difference.

[The Sicatoka]

In one system you get hosed by a formula.

In another system you get hosed by 'politics.'

At least with a formula you can see clearly why you got hosed and can work to come out of the equation better next time.

PS - Some really smart guy pointed these problems out already.

[Charger]

I have heard that the reason that Southern Illinois didn't host a playoff game was because of finances rather than their performance on the field. I believe thir AD didn't think they could afford it. I'm not sure how they drew a seeded team in the first round though.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I guess it is a good thing that UND isn't moving up since you guys are so down on the D1AA system. I myself much prefer the D1AA system....so it is great the Bison are out of D2.

[UND92,96]

I guess it is a good thing that UND isn't moving up since you guys are so down on the D1AA system. I myself much prefer the D1AA system....so it is great the Bison are out of D2.

I don't think it's a matter of being down on the I-AA system as much as it's pointing out the inherent flaws in both systems.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I have heard that the reason that Southern Illinois didn't host a playoff game was because of finances rather than their performance on the field. I believe thir AD didn't thick they could afford it. I'm not sure how they drew a seeded team in the first round though.

That is not what I have been hearing, I think that is just some BS put out there

[Charger]

[Bisonfan1234]

The *real* issue here is simply the rivalry between NDSU and UND. It's gotten to a point where it's sickening to me!! Enough already!! When NDSU says that something is A UND says it's B! The 2 schools will litterally argue the opposite point of each other out of spite! Example: who is at fault for the rivalry ending.

I'm glad the rivalry is taken a few years off before UND comes up to D1.

There isn't a lot of difference in the amount of flaws the the D2 and D1AA systems have. They just ahve different kinds of flaws. It's like arguing apples vs. oranges.

[The Sicatoka]

Example: who is at fault for the rivalry ending.

I'll bite.

So who is responsible?

[Bisonfan1234]

Everyone is at fault and no one is at fault.

My point was, it doesn't matter what the subject is... if Bison fans say the answer is Blue then UND will immediately conclude the answer is Red.

[PCM]

Everyone is at fault and no one is at fault.

Let's try this again. Who left?

[DamStrait]

There isn't a lot of difference in the amount of flaws the the D2 and D1AA systems have. They just ahve different kinds of flaws. It's like arguing apples vs. oranges.

Thus the subtitle to this thread .

[Bisonfan1234]

Thus the subtitle to this thread .

Indeed.

And UND's point was that NDSU's point of "leaving because of a crooked system" was wrong.

Then you'll notice that in one of my posts i said that we like the format better than D2's format, we're not leaving because we think the D1AA's format has less flaws.

As for this current discussion. PCM has just proved my point. On the topic of "who is at fault for ending the rivalry" UND will argue till the death that NDSU is at fault while NDSU will do the same only vice versa. It's stupid. No one is to blame for the rivalry ending because both sides have valid points...and everyone is to blame for the rivalry ending because both sides have valid points. In other words, to place blame on this topic is to say that one side's points are more/less valid than the other sides points which is simply not true (IMO). I refuse to pick a side simply because one side has no more truth to it than the other.

[PCM]

As for this current discussion. PCM has just proved my point. On the topic of "who is at fault for ending the rivalry" UND will argue till the death that NDSU is at fault while NDSU will do the same only vice versa. It's stupid.

You're right. It is stupid. It's stupid for anyone to think the rivalry ending isn't entirely NDSU's fault. It was NDSU's decision to leave DII and put the rivalry in jeopardy. That's the truth. It's a fact. Nothing you can say changes it.

Maybe this hypothetical example will help you understand:

Husband to wife: I'm sorry to tell you this, dear, but I want a divorce. I'm attracted to another woman who's far more beautiful than you. Plus, I think she's rich.

Wife: What? Are you joking? Have you slept with her?

Husband: Not yet. We've only had dinner together a couple times. But I spend every waking moment thinking about what it will be like to make love to her. I just know that once she sees the situation my way, it's going to be great for both of us.

Wife: I'm shocked. I'm absolutely stunned. Why would you throw away a perfectly good marriage when you don't even know how this woman feels about you?

Husband: My life's in a rut. I'm ready for new conquests and challenges. I want to grow. I want to hang out with the rich and famous. I want to be seen with a beautiful woman on my arm. I want the guys at the office to envy me. I'm also hoping that being with her will cure my baldness, clear up my acne and give me a better personality.

Wife: (Sighs) I thought we had a wonderful relationship and a good marriage. Sure, we've had our differences, but we've had some great times together, too. However, if that's how you really feel, I suppose it would be best if we divorced.

Husband: That's great, honey. I knew you'd understand. And after the divorce, we can still have sex, right?

Wife: Huh? Are you crazy? Of course not!

Husband: Well, fine, if that's the way you want it. But just remember: You're the one who ended our relationship.

[UND Fan]

PCM - Outstanding analogy!!

[CoteauRinkRat]

PCM

You hit the nail on the head with that one.

[WYOBISONMAN]

what a joke............sound to me like "feel good fluff".

[Bisonfan1234]

You're right. It is stupid. It's stupid for anyone to think the rivalry ending isn't entirely NDSU's fault. It was NDSU's decision to leave DII and put the rivalry in jeopardy. That's the truth. It's a fact. Nothing you can say changes it.

Maybe this hypothetical example will help you understand:

Husband to wife: I'm sorry to tell you this, dear, but I want a divorce. I'm attracted to another woman who's far more beautiful than you. Plus, I think she's rich.

Wife: What? Are you joking? Have you slept with her?

Husband: Not yet. We've only had dinner together a couple times. But I spend every waking moment thinking about what it will be like to make love to her. I just know that once she sees the situation my way, it's going to be great for both of us.

Wife: I'm shocked. I'm absolutely stunned. Why would you throw away a perfectly good marriage when you don't even know how this woman feels about you?

Husband: My life's in a rut. I'm ready for new conquests and challenges. I want to grow. I want to hang out with the rich and famous. I want to be seen with a beautiful woman on my arm. I want the guys at the office to envy me. I'm also hoping that being with her will cure my baldness, clear up my acne and give me a better personality.

Wife: (Sighs) I thought we had a wonderful relationship and a good marriage. Sure, we've had our differences, but we've had some great times together, too. However, if that's how you really feel, I suppose it would be best if we divorced.

Husband: That's great, honey. I knew you'd understand. And after the divorce, we can still have sex, right?

Wife: Huh? Are you crazy? Of course not!

Husband: Well, fine, if that's the way you want it. But just remember: You're the one who ended our relationship.

That is a very good analogy, and you made a lot of valid points as to why NDSU is at fault for ending the rivalry.

However, their are some things that you left out.

I'm not sure if you want me to explain NDSU's side of the story in terms of your analogy or not...so i'll do it in both. Analogy first.

***

Husband: That's great, honey. I knew you'd understand. And after the divorce, we can still have sex, right?

Wife: Huh? Are you crazy? Of course not!

Husband: Why not? Just because we aren't married doesn't mean we can't have sex. And when we do have sex it brings us both a great deal of pleasure as well as other people who like to watch us have sex (sorry...this analogy is going to get a lot more risque from here on out ).

Wife: I don't think that it's fair that you should still get to have sex with me and be with the beautiful new women. Also, now that you're with the new women you'll have gained a lot more skill in sex and so you'll be able to have your way with me more than i'll be able to have my way with you (they're very competitive during sex, no?).

Husband: You're right, it wouldn't be fair and thus i don't want to have sex with you until you decide that you should marry a handsome, rich man and also gain more skill in sex. However, do think that during the first 2 years of my new marrage, i won't have gained a significant amount of new skill in sex as to where our sex will become one-sided. So i say, lets have sex for 2 more years, and after that we can call it quits until you decide to marry up. Ok? In fact, here is a contract that guarantees we can have sex at both your house and at mine so it will be a fair arrangement for the 2 years.

Wife: No. I'm too scared that you'll have your way with me for me to comply. I don't ever want to see you again, reguardless of how much pleasure we give to ourselves and others.

***

So you can see, in your original analogy you had dual definitions for the word "relationship". You first used it to define marrage (which represents both the schools being in devision 2) and then you used it to define sex (which means the games that UND-NDSU play independent of anything else). You can't logically do this. It is a fallacy.

In other words, just because we aren't in the same division doesn't mean we can't play each other! We can still play and in fact we have offered to play you for 2 more years. But you have rejected that offer claiming that you refuse to play us when we have more scholorships. NDSU comes back with the fact that just because a school has more scholorships doesn't mean it will automatically win. Especially in the first 2 years. And then UND comes back with.... and then NDSU comes back with.... so on and so forth, forever and ever.

As you can see, each side just keeps coming back with points that would put the other at fault. It never stops!!

BUT, In general...the 2 biggest things which would place fault ( [1] it's NDSU's fault because they un-leveled the playing field by moving up to D1AA, and [2] it's UND's fault because they won't sign the contract that has been offered) cancel each other out and thus the only positions you can logically argue is that it is everyone's fault or than it is no one's fault.

[PCM]

The relationship has to be fair for both parties to get something out of it. Once one party changes the nature of the relationship in a manner that's inherently unfair, it's not reasonable expect the other party to stay in the relationship. The party that caused the change to occur is the one responsible for damaging the relationship.

Get it?

[Bisonfan1234]

The relationship has to be fair for both parties to get something out of it. Once one party changes the nature of the relationship in a manner that's inherently unfair, it's not reasonable expect the other party to stay in the relationship. The party that caused the change to occur is the one responsible for damaging the relationship.

Get it?

I fully understand your point and view on the rivalry ending.

Placing guilt is not an exact science, however.

IMO you can't simply say that NDSU's point of you not signing the contract has no merit whatsoever. You claim that NDSU will be playing with an advantage. I do no dispute that. However, the question is "how much advantage will it be". To justify not playing them because of their advantage seems to suggest that no team should ever play a team that has a scholorship difference because it would be unfair. But UND played played both UM Crookston and Newbury who were both at less than 36 scholorships! Ah ha! Contradiction! But of course, is it as big a difference as a team with 63 playing a team with 36? IMO, no it's not. Nonetheless, i think this proves that NDSU's argument has merit. How much merit? Well...in my opinion as much as UND's argument for NDSU leaving. But UND fans will inexorably say that it has less merit and NDSU fans will say it has more merit.

[tony]

10 Reasons the DI-AA football playoffs are better than DII's:

1. Two or three times as many people attend DI-AA football playoff games than DII playoff games. The fans have voted!

2. No regionalization like DII has. The Big Sky has three teams in the playoffs all in a different brackets. The best two DI-AA teams have a much better chance of meeting in the championship game than in DII.

3. If you don't play anybody that offers scholarships, you don't get in (i.e. No Bentleys).

4. No laughable Strenth of Schedule Index (and, hey, it's not the sole criterion, guys. UND was #1 in the region long before their SSI was).

5. Eight at-large teams - no regional quotas to be filled.

6. The DI-AA playoffs have steadily improved their playoff system. DII has spent 15 years screwing up theirs. DI-AA is better managed.

7. In the first round and second rounds, teams might get to play somebody they haven't already played recently (or ever) just like in the old days of DII.

8. The semifinals and championship games are both on national TV.

9. Complain about Southern Illinois getting a home game? Huh? They lost their last game. How about Central Oklahoma at Mesa State, Grand Valley at Bentley, or my favorite, NDSU at Delta State? Every year, DII gives home games to teams that don't deserve them.

10. The new guys challenging for DI-AA titles are going to be fully funded, won't be trying to drag down the division, and will have names like North Dakota State, Northern Colorado, and UC Davis instead of Bentley, Concordia-St. Paul, and Tiffin. DII has declined to the point where the typical DII school now has: an enrollment of around 3000, a name like <Town With Fewer Than 15000 People> State (<enter state abbreviation here>), and an athletic budget that would have to double or triple to fund 36 football scholarships (so naturally they are going to want to continue reining in the big bully schools).

Now, can any UND fan explain to me how the DII playoff setup better than DI-AA's? Note: I'm looking for a serious answer here.