A Swipe at the SBoHE

[GeauxSioux]

Someone out in Dickinson doesn't think very highly of the SBoHE... [url=http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/167736/]N.D.

[Ole in MSP]

Someone out in Dickinson doesn't think very highly of the SBoHE... [url=http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/167736/]N.D.

[Bison Dan]

Cannot comment on some of his info because I do not have the backup, but it has always seemed to me now as a Minnesota resident that funding schools like VC state, Mayville State, Bottineau, Williston, Jamestown college (private?) etc which are smaller than many High schools is just ludicrous! Four schools might be a stretch, but six might be optimum. Travelling ND roads in winter for some kids would be treacherous, but with on line learning that should help reduce the hazards of that somewhat.

It will never happen. They'll make it out as the little guy against the big bullies and it'll be a PR nightmare for anyone proposing it.

[MplsBison]

I've said before: turn VC and Mayville into junior colleges!

It would let the schools stay open and it would allow them to serve a mission that would actually be helpful to people in the region. And as a bonus, it would give them a conference for their teams to play, instead of watching the DAC 5 bleed out...

[Bison Dan]

I've said before: turn VC and Mayville into junior colleges!

It would let the schools stay open and it would allow them to serve a mission that would actually be helpful to people in the region. And as a bonus, it would give them a conference for their teams to play, instead of watching the DAC 5 bleed out...

Better yet make them specialized tech schools.

[the green team]

I know many people who have gotten their teaching certificates from both Mayville State & Valley City State. They have gone on to serve as great educators throughout the region but also around the country. Many played 4 years of sports at these institutions and through their experiences and education became great coaches at many different levels as well. I am a UND guy, but I have an affection for these small little "teacher colleges". Thank goodness for Mayville St, that's where Gene Roebuck went to school. These schools are charged in developing young educators, and do a very good job of it, I would hate to see them close. Changing them to 2 year tech institutions would do away with that mission, and that to me would be sad.

[Hammersmith]

Better yet make them specialized tech schools.

(I don't remember if I've posted this stuff here before, so apologies if this is a repeat.)

Wahpeton and Williston/Bismarck are better for that. Wahpeton and Bismarck have the infrastructure, and Williston has a great location. North Dakota only needs two tech schools(1 east, 1 west), so there isn't really room for more than we've got(educating tech students is expensive). Mayville needs to go bye-bye, but I agree with Mpls about Valley City. I would love to see North Dakota develop a couple serious junior colleges. Not the glorified high schools that we've got now, but real prep schools designed to feed students into our four-year colleges. One of the big rationales for keeping schools like Mayville open is that many students from small-town North Dakota are better served with the smaller class sizes. Also, some students from bigger cities need the additional academic attention to succeed. I actually agree with this; but why does it need to be for the full four years? Shouldn't the students be ready for the bigger universities after two years? Besides, by the time you get into your 300 & 400 level classes, the class sizes are pretty small even at schools like NDSU & UND. So redevelop Valley City and one other college into true prep schools and get the word out to the school districts. Personally, I like the idea of Bismarck getting the other one, but there's a good infrastructure argument for keeping them as a tech school.

As a first pass, I'd like to see Mayville totally shut down, and Devils Lake and Bottineau reduced to outposts. NDSU & UND would remain virtually unchanged. Minot & Dickinson would remain four year schools with any grad programs as partnerships with NDSU/UND. I'd also like to see both of them develop specialty programs; geo/arch/anthropology for Dickinson, and maybe languages/foreign relations for Minot. I'd like to see Williston and Wahpeton as the tech schools, with Williston having specialty programs in energy and resource management and Wahpeton in high-tech research and manufacturing. The research parks at both NDSU & UND could use a ready supply of good local techs to compliment our home-grown engineers, and Wahpeton could be a great source. All the campuses could have a small community college aspect(including Bott & DL), but it should always be viewed as an adjunct and never as a primary mission(like most NDUS campuses do now). Of course none of this is going to happen, so this is all just choking the mental chicken. But I get bored when I'm walking/jogging and I've been in and around higher ed my whole life.

As for the writer of the letter, he's got some good and bad points. Much of the money the SBoHE is requesting is actually deferred maintenance and raises from the bad economic decades ND just came out of. We're paying now because we didn't pay then. I think we all know the colleges are actually focused on the academics and research, it's just that we and the media like to talk about the athletics; the author is confusing perception with reality. Duplication of programs is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's geography, sometimes size, and sometimes quality of education. While we're not a big state population-wise, we are fairly large in area. Sometimes it's good to have commonly sought out programs in multiple points in the state. For size, there's not always an economy of scale in education. Sometimes you get to a plateau in a program where adding a moderate number of students increases the costs disproportionately. In those cases, it may be better to let another campus start a smaller program using existing resources and let them take the overflow. And sometimes there are programs that any school of a particular size/mission should have even if another campus has the same program. Just because another school has a specialized English program, for example, doesn't mean that the other schools shouldn't have English departments and degrees.

Sorry this got long-winded. Kudos(sympathies?) if you actually read the whole thing.

[redwing77]

I know many people who have gotten their teaching certificates from both Mayville State & Valley City State. They have gone on to serve as great educators throughout the region but also around the country. Many played 4 years of sports at these institutions and through their experiences and education became great coaches at many different levels as well. I am a UND guy, but I have an affection for these small little "teacher colleges". Thank goodness for Mayville St, that's where Gene Roebuck went to school. These schools are charged in developing young educators, and do a very good job of it, I would hate to see them close. Changing them to 2 year tech institutions would do away with that mission, and that to me would be sad.

I know just as many who have gotten their teacher's licenses through NDSU... Oh... wait... That NDSU program is run through VCSU.

What I think should be done is this:

We're now in an era where distance learning is becoming the going trend. So, I say, let's do that. Incorporate any worthwhile programs VCSU offers into NDSU, Mayville into UND, and then close them down.... mostly.

Turn them into institutes of distance learning. Resource centers for distance learning students who attend UND (Mayville) or NDSU (VCSU). What a resource center would be includes a library, computer labs, tutoring and writing resource centers, guidance counseling (including job counseling), admissions counseling, financial aid and business offices, etc.

All coursework would run out of the parent academic insitution (UND, NDSU, etc.). In fact, they could be run out of multiple institutions if they want. For example, you could be taking education distance ed coursework through UND, General Ed requirements out of Bismarck, and perhaps some work for your minor in business through NDSU. All of it done online.

The computer labs would aid students who don't have internet access at home and provide tech assistance if they require it to navigate the system or have computer problems.

I like the idea of letting some go to tech schools and junior colleges.

I think Bottineau, Jamestown, and Devils Lake would be good ideas for junior colleges.

Hammersmith is right on with the Tech Schools.

[Shawn-O]

I think Bottineau, Jamestown, and Devils Lake would be good ideas for junior colleges.

Jamestown College is private.

[Hammersmith]

I know just as many who have gotten their teacher's licenses through NDSU... Oh... wait... That NDSU program is run through VCSU.

That's one of my pet peeves. For those that don't know, NDSU's elementary education program is run by VCSU. There's no good reason for it; it's just political. The students live on campus or in Fargo, the faculty and staff do the same. I'm not certain, but I think more El-Ed students run through Fargo than Valley City. And the secondary(grades 7-12) degrees come from NDSU. It's a stupid result of a stupid situation. Supposedly it's because VCSU is listed in the state constitution as a teaching college, but I believe that's just a cop out. You know what would happen if the program transferred to NDSU? Nothing. The students wouldn't notice a difference(they never set foot on VCSU's campus as it is) and just about the only change to the faculty would be a different name on their paychecks.

Sorry. Like I said, pet peeve.

[Ole in MSP]

That's one of my pet peeves. For those that don't know, NDSU's elementary education program is run by VCSU. There's no good reason for it; it's just political. The students live on campus or in Fargo, the faculty and staff do the same. I'm not certain, but I think more El-Ed students run through Fargo than Valley City. And the secondary(grades 7-12) degrees come from NDSU. It's a stupid result of a stupid situation. Supposedly it's because VCSU is listed in the state constitution as a teaching college, but I believe that's just a cop out. You know what would happen if the program transferred to NDSU? Nothing. The students wouldn't notice a difference(they never set foot on VCSU's campus as it is) and just about the only change to the faculty would be a different name on their paychecks.

Sorry. Like I said, pet peeve.

Agree, just checked, it is 40+miles from Mayville to GF and 60+ from VC to Fargo mostly on vacant interstate highways. People commute that far all the time. To keep these two schools open is inefficient and expensive. True, there are alums from both that have made wonderful contributions to society, but in all likelihood they would have done so no matter where they went to college. If the enrollment of these schools is not growing by 3-5% regularly every year then shut them down. I live in Minnesota and it just frosts my butt that I pay taxes to keep UMC and UMM open when they are so close to other state schools that could provide a more tax efficient education. Kids who need that small school environment should go to a private college where they pay for that luxurious small class size and environment not the taxpayer. I know of a rural lake country public school district in Wisconsin where one township has 22 kids enrolled in the local schools. That township pays over $1 Million to the school district in taxes. The cost per year to educate those 22 kids is about $55,000 each. Could Harvard be that expensive? Think about it! It is a matter of efficiency, not politics.

[MplsBison]

I know many people who have gotten their teaching certificates from both Mayville State & Valley City State. They have gone on to serve as great educators throughout the region but also around the country. Many played 4 years of sports at these institutions and through their experiences and education became great coaches at many different levels as well. I am a UND guy, but I have an affection for these small little "teacher colleges". Thank goodness for Mayville St, that's where Gene Roebuck went to school. These schools are charged in developing young educators, and do a very good job of it, I would hate to see them close. Changing them to 2 year tech institutions would do away with that mission, and that to me would be sad.

Same old story, same old answer: that's fine and dandy...but it should not be on the ND taxpayer's dollar!

Mayville and VC are essentially a private school experience that is subsidized by ND taxpayer money. Let them go private with that mission, then.

If they want to stay in the NDUS, time for a new mission.