Oxbow6 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Today's Fargo Fourm is reporting, this past school year, '08-'09, the 11 colleges in ND gave away $24 million in tuition waivers/breaks . To who? Almost exclusively to grad students and students who arrive from outside the state and country...mostly though to foreign students. Of course, NDSU is leading the way in this fiasco, too! The college president's are defending these waivers by saying these students provide "diversity, brainpower and economic benefits"!?!? Really? At the cost of $24 million! If I want diversity, I'll go eat at Juano's downtown. If I want brainpower, I'll watch "Who wants to be a Millionaire". If I want economic benefits, I'll clip coupons from the Sunday Fargo Forum! So for $24M, our colleges are providing grad degrees, for FREE, in Chemical, Electrical, and Mechanical Engineering, then we are sending these individuals back to Pakistan, Iran... And what is this state and this country getting out of this deal? BTW, have a friend who's son didn't go back to SU this semester because he couldn't afford it! Where is his free tuition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Today's Fargo Fourm is reporting, this past school year, '08-'09, the 11 colleges in ND gave away $24 million in tuition waivers/breaks . To who? Almost exclusively to grad students and students who arrive from outside the state and country...mostly though to foreign students. Of course, NDSU is leading the way in this fiasco, too! The college president's are defending these waivers by saying these students provide "diversity, brainpower and economic benefits"!?!? Really? At the cost of $24 million! If I want diversity, I'll go eat at Juano's downtown. If I want brainpower, I'll watch "Who wants to be a Millionaire". If I want economic benefits, I'll clip coupons from the Sunday Fargo Forum! So for $24M, our colleges are providing grad degrees, for FREE, in Chemical, Electrical, and Mechanical Engineering, then we are sending these individuals back to Pakistan, Iran... And what is this state and this country getting out of this deal? BTW, have a friend who's son didn't go back to SU this semester because he couldn't afford it! Where is his free tuition? What a piss-poor, pathetic, protectionist, anti-foreign, border-line racist attitude. You just don't have a clue what big time, research, graduate university programs are about. Like it or not, NDSU (and UND) are big time research universities. You can NOT maintain a large graduate/research program without top notch grad students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And top grad students already have offers of free tuition at our other peer research universities. It has to be done. Lookit, you just worry about how the hockey team is doing and if your supply of miller light is running short or not, K? Leave the academic side to people who have a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxperseven Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What a piss-poor, pathetic, protectionist, anti-foreign, border-line racist attitude. You just don't have a clue what big time, research, graduate university programs are about. Like it or not, NDSU (and UND) are big time research universities. You can NOT maintain a large graduate/research program without top notch grad students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And top grad students already have offers of free tuition at our other peer research universities. It has to be done. Lookit, you just worry about how the hockey team is doing and if your supply of miller light is running short or not, K? Leave the academic side to people who have a clue. Exactly why are you on this site all the time?? And have you ever given a hint of agreement with anyone other than yourself. Must be nice to throw all those stones daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 What a piss-poor, pathetic, protectionist, anti-foreign, border-line racist attitude. You just don't have a clue what big time, research, graduate university programs are about. Like it or not, NDSU (and UND) are big time research universities. You can NOT maintain a large graduate/research program without top notch grad students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And top grad students already have offers of free tuition at our other peer research universities. It has to be done. Lookit, you just worry about how the hockey team is doing and if your supply of miller light is running short or not, K? Leave the academic side to people who have a clue. 1st...I don't drink. 2nd...I paid for my undergrad and med school by myself. No waivers. No breaks. Just hard work and personal responsiblilty. And to top it off I'm back in this state working. $24M is a lot of $$ to be giving away...period. So label me as you wish, but there are many more with my sentiments on this issue out there than yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SooToo Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 You just don't have a clue what big time, research, graduate university programs are about. Like it or not, NDSU (and UND) are big time research universities. You can NOT maintain a large graduate/research program without top notch grad students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And top grad students already have offers of free tuition at our other peer research universities. It has to be done. All for the betterment of ND, I understand. However, it seems more than coincidental that: 1) Fargo Chamber types for years have hoped to see NDSU outgrow UND; 2) Ol' Joe publicly stated his goal last year to boost graduate and foreign enrollment (which jumped more than 21% and 34%, respectively, just this year), and; 3) the AC gives away more tuition (more than 13% last year) than any other school in ND, save Dickinson State. IIRC from an earlier article, tuition waivers jumped nearly another 20% just this year at NDSU, presumably pushing the total towards 1/2 of the all waivers given through the NDUS. UND, by the way, feels the need to shell out just half the tuition waivers compared to NDSU. Tell me again, what's the motivation at Old Main? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What a piss-poor, pathetic, protectionist, anti-foreign, border-line racist attitude. You just don't have a clue what big time, research, graduate university programs are about. Like it or not, NDSU (and UND) are big time research universities. You can NOT maintain a large graduate/research program without top notch grad students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And top grad students already have offers of free tuition at our other peer research universities. It has to be done. Lookit, you just worry about how the hockey team is doing and if your supply of miller light is running short or not, K? Leave the academic side to people who have a clue. Whats wrong with wanting something in return for giving someone a free tuition? What positives am I missing about giving someone a free tuition only to have them return to their home country? Most of us here went to college and their where a lot of students just as smart and talented who where paying for their school and wanted to stay in this state or country. I'd rather have that than someone who leaves skidmarks on the ground and leaves the country as soon as they graduate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 All for the betterment of ND, I understand. However, it seems more than coincidental that: 1) Fargo Chamber types for years have hoped to see NDSU outgrow UND; 2) Ol' Joe publicly stated his goal last year to boost graduate and foreign enrollment (which jumped more than 21% and 34%, respectively, just this year), and; 3) the AC gives away more tuition (more than 13% last year) than any other school in ND, save Dickinson State. IIRC from an earlier article, tuition waivers jumped nearly another 20% just this year at NDSU, presumably pushing the total towards 1/2 of the all waivers given through the NDUS. UND, by the way, feels the need to shell out just half the tuition waivers compared to NDSU. Tell me again, what's the motivation at Old Main? Now wait just a second here, you're not talking the same language as Oxbow. I am mostly in agreement with your intentions. NDSU's waiver program needs to be studied and the break-neck growth probably needs to be scaled back. Oxbow is launching an all-out assault on tuition waivers in general and using them to bring top notch graduate students to North Dakota to do great research. Oh and it appears he greatly dislikes the fact that they also happen to be foreign students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Whats wrong with wanting something in return for giving someone a free tuition? What positives am I missing about giving someone a free tuition only to have them return to their home country? Most of us here went to college and their where a lot of students just as smart and talented who where paying for their school and wanted to stay in this state or country. I'd rather have that than someone who leaves skidmarks on the ground and leaves the country as soon as they graduate. Answer this question: what's the point of even having a research university located in the state of North Dakota? Does it provide any benefit to the state? Or are they just wasting the tax payer's money? If you agree that the state of ND should use tax payer's money to fund a research university, then you automatically agree then that they must do what is needed to attract graduate students to said university. This is an an automatic given. All big state research universities do this. And I'm not just talking about Big Ten schools. Good grad students expect, and will get, free tuition. That's the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Somewhere in this forms the question: Aren't we growing "good grad students" from our good undergraduate programs? Why does the NDUS have to search far and wide, instead of cherry-picking the best it already produces? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Somewhere in this forms the question: Aren't we growing "good grad students" from our good undergraduate programs? Why does the NDUS have to search far and wide, instead of cherry-picking the best it already produces? I'm sure that they are working to keep the best at the schools. But they are probably also trying to attract other good grad students to get the best results. Plus, some students don't want to get all their degrees from the same school. They go to one school for undergrad, a second for a masters and a third for a doctorate. The theory is that they will learn more by going to different schools and work with different teachers rather than taking course after course after course from the same teachers and same program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Today's Fargo Fourm is reporting, this past school year, '08-'09, the 11 colleges in ND gave away $24 million in tuition waivers/breaks . To who? Almost exclusively to grad students and students who arrive from outside the state and country...mostly though to foreign students. Of course, NDSU is leading the way in this fiasco, too! The college president's are defending these waivers by saying these students provide "diversity, brainpower and economic benefits"!?!? Really? At the cost of $24 million! If I want diversity, I'll go eat at Juano's downtown. If I want brainpower, I'll watch "Who wants to be a Millionaire". If I want economic benefits, I'll clip coupons from the Sunday Fargo Forum! So for $24M, our colleges are providing grad degrees, for FREE, in Chemical, Electrical, and Mechanical Engineering, then we are sending these individuals back to Pakistan, Iran... And what is this state and this country getting out of this deal? BTW, have a friend who's son didn't go back to SU this semester because he couldn't afford it! Where is his free tuition? The bulk of NDSU's waivers are given to Grad Assistants. People who teach classes, do research, or preform some other kind of service(help out with sports marketing, student affairs, etc). I'm not sure how the waivers for foreign students breakdown, if they are doing nothing for their tuition it should stop, end of story. But the bulk of NDSU's waivers are not to people from out of country, $10,205,284 to be exact. With most of that, $6,735,326 going to Grad Assistants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Somewhere in this forms the question: Aren't we growing "good grad students" from our good undergraduate programs? Why does the NDUS have to search far and wide, instead of cherry-picking the best it already produces? It's not just the NDUS that has problems finding grad students from their own local undergrads, every US university does. American undergrads are interested in one thing only upon graduating: "where do I find a job so I can make money". Very, very few American undergrads seek graduate education. India and China, on other hand, are coming here in droves. Also consider this: there are 1300000 "one in a thousand" students in China, 1100000 in India. They're all looking for grad school. You take what you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 The bulk of NDSU's waivers are given to Grad Assistants. People who teach classes, do research, or preform some other kind of service(help out with sports marketing, student affairs, etc). I'm not sure how the waivers for foreign students breakdown, if they are doing nothing for their tuition it should stop, end of story. But the bulk of NDSU's waivers are not to people from out of country, $10,205,284 to be exact. With most of that, $6,735,326 going to Grad Assistants. So with your numbers you've established that SU is giving 42.5% of all tuition waiver/breaks in this state. 2nd you are stating that out of $10M waived at SU, $6.7M goes to Grad assistants and none of those folks are foreign?? SU's foreign student enrollment is up almost 35% this year alone! IF there was a breakdown, the majority of the $10M at SU would be going to aid foreign grad students and/or grad assistants...period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 It's not just the NDUS that has problems finding grad students from their own local undergrads, every US university does. American undergrads are interested in one thing only upon graduating: "where do I find a job so I can make money". Very, very few American undergrads seek graduate education. India and China, on other hand, are coming here in droves. Also consider this: there are 1300000 "one in a thousand" students in China, 1100000 in India. They're all looking for grad school. You take what you can get. I call BS on that. You don't think there are American students being passed over for foreign students for the sake of diveristy, multiculturalism, blah, blah, blah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 So with your numbers you've established that SU is giving 42.5% of all tuition waiver/breaks in this state. 2nd you are stating that out of $10M waived at SU, $6.7M goes to Grad assistants and none of those folks are foriegn?? IF there was a breakdown, the majority of the $10M at SU would be going to aid foreign grad students and/or grad assistants...period. The 10 million I was referring to was separate from the money that was given to foreign students. The Complete and Total Breakdown... SBHE Mandated.... National Guard-$167,294 Vets-157,354 Staff Waiver-1,051,936 Institutional Grad Asst-6,736,610 Foreign Student-2,855,848 WCHE-113,154 Sr. Citizen-1,206 Other/Cult. Diver. 1,349,100 Misc.-319,859 Inst. Waiver-310,859 Total-13,061,132 I only have concerns with one category...foreign students. I don't care what NDSU's numbers mean in regards to the rest of the state. The only other school I will look at is UND and I agree the difference between the two shouldn't be as large as it is. NDSU should be a bit larger since it has a higher enrollment, more on-campus students(2,400 more), and does more research. It appears to me that foreign students are significantly skewing the number(NDSU has about 500 foreign students receiving waivers and UND 50). I would like to see more clarification as to why that number is so high. That said, Dickinson State's numbers are also very similar to NDSU's in this category, which is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I call BS on that. You don't think there are American students being passed over for foreign students for the sake of diveristy, multiculturalism, blah, blah, blah? I would be willing to bet that at least 65% of the grad students at NDSU and UND are from outside the US. Probably closer to 80%, but not quite that confident. Admitting more American students would be *increasing* diversity in the grad student population. I doubt highly that any are being over looked. They're just not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxbow6 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 The 10 million I was referring to was separate from the money that was given to foreign students. The Complete and Total Breakdown... SBHE Mandated.... National Guard-$167,294 Vets-157,354 Staff Waiver-1,051,936 Institutional Grad Asst-6,736,610 Foreign Student-2,855,848 WCHE-113,154 Sr. Citizen-1,206 Other/Cult. Diver. 1,349,100 Misc.-319,859 Inst. Waiver-310,859 Total-13,061,132 I only have concerns with one category...foreign students. I don't care what NDSU's numbers mean in regards to the rest of the state. The only other school I will look at is UND and I agree the difference between the two shouldn't be as large as it is. NDSU should be a bit larger since it has a higher enrollment, more on-campus students(2,400 more), and does more research. The difference shouldn't be as large as it is though. Appreciate the breakdown, but the point remains that of those getting "Grad Assistant" waivers, a majority of those poeple are foreign as well. The "foreign student" category is just that students. You are coreect in that there was also, I believe, $3M+ in mandated waivers given out last year thru out the state above the $24M we are discussing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I would be willing to bet that at least 65% of the grad students at NDSU and UND are from outside the US. Probably closer to 80%, but not quite that confident. Admitting more American students would be *increasing* diversity in the grad student population. I doubt highly that any are being over looked. They're just not there. The vast majority of Grad students are from the US, it isn't even close. 1,714 of the NDSU's 2,103 Grad Students are from the US. If you want to include professional students, the number grows even larger(only 3 of NDSU's 353 professional students are foreign). The bulk of that number is made up of ND and MN students(1,319). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moser53 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 The vast majority of Grad students are from the US, it isn't even close. 1,714 of the NDSU's 2,103 Grad Students are from the US. If you want to include professional students, the number grows even larger(only 3 of NDSU's 353 professional students are foreign). The bulk of that number is made up of ND and MN students(1,319). Grad Asst-6,736,610 Foreign Student-2,855,848 That subtotal: 9592458 1714 of 2103 is 81.5% or 18.5% foreign. Grad Assistant breakdown: US: 81.5% of the 6736610 = 5490337. Foreign: 18.5% of the 6736610 = 1246273. Add the Foreign Grad Students to Foreign Students (2855848) and you get 4201121. Looking at that it becomes 43% Foreign, 57% US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Appreciate the breakdown, but the point remains that of those getting "Grad Assistant" waivers, a majority of those poeple are foreign as well. The "foreign student" category is just that students. You are coreect in that there was also, I believe, $3M+ in mandated waivers given out last year thru out the state above the $24M we are discussing here. I am pretty sure you are wrong.....2008-2009(that is year these numbers refer to) NDSU had 704 International students(328 undergrad, 321 grad and 1 professional), 513 foreign students received waivers. I'm sure some of them paid their own way, maybe a few were Grad Assistants, but they were in the vast minority of the 1,240 students that were Grad Assistants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 That subtotal: 9592458 1714 of 2103 is 81.5% or 18.5% foreign. Grad Assistant breakdown: US: 81.5% of the 6736610 = 5490337. Foreign: 18.5% of the 6736610 = 1246273. Add the Foreign Grad Students to Foreign Students (2855848) and you get 4201121. Looking at that it becomes 43% Foreign, 57% US. For one those enrollment numbers are current, the tuition waiver numbers are from 2008-2009. In 2008-2009 NDSU had 1818 Grad Students, 321 were foreign. There was 704 total International students and of those 513 received foreign student waivers. That leaves 191 students without waivers...You can draw your own conclusions from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 The vast majority of Grad students are from the US, it isn't even close. 1,714 of the NDSU's 2,103 Grad Students are from the US. If you want to include professional students, the number grows even larger(only 3 of NDSU's 353 professional students are foreign). The bulk of that number is made up of ND and MN students(1,319). Well I would've lost $5 on that. I'd like to see your source, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Well I would've lost $5 on that. I'd like to see your source, obviously. http://www.ndsu.edu/fileadmin/registrar/en...10/report-g.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 http://www.ndsu.edu/fileadmin/registrar/en...10/report-g.pdf Alright lets see if you can do this... I assume that the vast majority of $$$ spent on research at both NDSU and UND are at the colleges dealing with Engineering, sciences, bio-tech and medical. How many of those graduate students are foreign vs. domestic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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