Herald Editorial - UND Football Ticket Prices

[The Sicatoka]

Then you'll love this:

I bought tickets for the 2001 NDSU at UND game through the UND Alumni Association. For two tickets and a pre-game party it was $55 to $60.

This year it is $27.50 for a ticket and $5 for the pre-game party. For two that's $65. That really isn't that great of a rate of inflation.

I guess that it's just that everyone is paying it this year. Forgive me if I view it as excessive grousing and bemoaning coming from some corners.

[Mad Man]

Gee, I *almost* feel bad for dropping $100 for one ticket to last Friday's Michigan game, 5th row, 40 yardline on the Blue side too. But I'm sure I'll get over it.

You're not a rich snob, but why just one, couldn't get a date or couldn't you afford to bring her at those outrages prices?

Seriously it would have been nice to see the Gophers choke.

One other option for people that don't want to shell out the $27.50 for the Bison game is to get season tickets. Last time I checked they were still available. Remember three years ago when I was picking my seats at the Ralph, Bollinger was practically begging me to get season football tickets.

If you get season tickets it's almost like to Bison game is free. $80 for season tickets, six home games works out to about $13.33 per game or If you average the $80 over just the other five games it works out to $16 per game. That's $.50 less then buying individual game Reserved seating tickets.

[NewGuy]

And also probably explains why he only needs to worry about buying one ticket to games.

[tony]

Let me repeat:

Anyone who doesn't think college athletics is a business hasn't been paying attention for the last 20 years.

First of all, ScottM is taking some pretty serious guff here. I figure he's just young and brash. His perspective will probably change as he gets older.

Now for Sicatoka. I have been paying attention the last 20 years. Lots of people say that college athletics are a business or should be run like a business. Saying it does not make it so. Lots of people are wrong every day, few are more wrong, both factually and philosophically, than those who say that college athletics are a business - unless they are speaking metaphorically. UND and NDSU athletics have aspects of businesses but, at their roots, both athletic departments are dependent parts of their universities. In any case, unless you believe that athletic departments should split completely off from their universities and become semi-pro, you are using the old "it is how the world works, it might be wrong but who am I to complain or even think about it?" argument. That is weak.

I know the line between private and public sector is blurry (or non-existent) in Grand Forks , but UND athletics is a public sector operation, pure and simple, and must keep UND's overall mission in mind in all it does.

If you really want to compare who has been paying attention or not the last twenty years, look at the state of DII and NDSU's attitude versus UND's. It's like comparing Churchill to Chamberlain

[lawkota]

Another one for the books, oh king of the analogy - equating the deterioration of Division II athletics to the threat of a Hitler-dominated Europe. Priceless. Do you think these things up on the spot or do you use a cheat sheet? Oh, yeah, you qualified it by using a smilie. How clever.

Of course, you are implying (again) that UND has its head in the sand. I can assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. The athletic department and administration know exactly what is on the horizon in Division II.

NDSU moved up a division. That is a decision based on the information at hand and how it impacts their institution. UND is staying put. That is also a decision based on the same information and how it impacts their institution. The institutions however, are distinct. I disagree with UND's position and hope they will change course but I have never stated, nor do I believe, that they are acting without full knowledge of the situation. They have just come to a different decision. There is no right or wrong here.

[PCM]

I find it ironic that Bison fans have no problem with Pres. Chapman's desire to apply the business concept competition when it comes to duplicating programs at UND. But when it comes to applying the business concept of supply and demand to ticket prices at an athletic event, suddenly they are concerned about the greater good.

[tony]

You misunderstood my analogy. It would be ludicrous to make the comparison you thought I was making. I'll clear it up.

NDSU is like Churchill because he realized that Germany couldn't be appeased and that ignoring that fact until war was declared was a tactical mistake. Knowing this, Churchill proposed an appopriate course of action. Just to be extra clear: I am NOT saying that NDSU thinks that Germany is going to declare war on Europe and that going DI is the best way to prepare I believe that DII has changed and will continue to change in ways that hurt NDSU and help small schools. Going DI is a better course of action than ignoring this probability and hoping things turn out. Yeah, it'll be tough - blood, sweat, and tears all around, I'm sure.

UND is like Chamberlain in my analogy because I think they are like Sicatoka and still believe that "DII can be saved" and that the flood of tiny schools aren't going to demand rule changes that are in the best interests of the majority of DII members. That makes no sense.

Anyway, you were right - I was implying that UND has it's head in the sand about the future of DII - although I thought I was being clear to the point of saying it straight out.

I'll qualify now. Anybody who thinks DII isn't going to continue to change to accomodate smaller and smaller schools might has well bet on passenger pigeons becoming the next white meat. Maybe Kupchella and Thomas realize that DII will continue to change but don't mind. That's a possibility because these changes are unlikely to do anything but put more emphasis on hockey. Either way, it would be foolish for anybody in UND's administration to criticize NDSU's decision wthout at least acknowledging that more downsizing of DII is on the way.

PCM: for gosh sakes, it's not an on/off switch. Chapman was using the business model as an analogy he wasn't saying that NDSU should ignore it's mission because NDSU is a business. His whole argument was that it better serves the state to add those programs. You can disagree but *face it* avoiding program duplication is not NDSU's mission.

[redwing77]

Gee, nd here I thought the whole move of NDSU up to DI-AA was more like a move of jealousy. We have DI hockey and NDSU was jealous. Couldn't get into hockey (too costly and I think NDSU would have had to start up a women's hockey team as well under title IX, which would have raised the cost that much more) so they decided to move the football team up to the higher level instead.

That was my impressions. I mean, look at it this way: UND vs NDSU in hockey. Do you think NDSU would have a chance? It'd be like UND vs Niagara or Canisius.

That's why I supported the move to D I-AA for NDSU. Of course, time will tell as far as how their ticket prices will be affected. My impression is that it will shortly go the way of UND hockey's program: Students may have to pay a small fee to go to non exhibition home games. I don't know.

This is all GUESS work, folks. If you want to flame it, fine. I never stated anywhere that this is fact.

[The Sicatoka]

Sure I'd love to see DII saved.

I've also said UND should evaluate DIAA.

"What the market can bear" and "direct competition" are hallmarks of the economic system called capitalism.

I firmly believe that collegiate athletics, from the fiscal aspect, must be run as a business. If the athletic department is not "in the black," they are a financial burden upon the institution and its primary mission, namely education.

You want big-time athletics? Be prepared to pay the big-time freight.

[PCM]

You can disagree but *face it* avoiding program duplication is not NDSU's mission.

But it will be NDSU's problem.

[lawkota]

You misunderstood my analogy.

I understood it perfectly. I just thought it was dumb and inapplicable. Chamberlain and Churchill led the same country. Chapman/Taylor and Kupchella/Thomas lead different institutions. If you can't at least acknowledge that UND and NDSU view the DII situation thru different tinted glasses, then you have no business in this discussion.

My point was that UND does understand the changing landscape in DII. They have not adopted a pollyanna attitude, hoping that things will stay the same. You continue to imply otherwise. You're wrong. In the final analysis, UND may regret not moving up with NDSU but it won't be because they didn't fully appreciate the landscape. It'll be because they misjudged the effect on their institution. The same can be said for NDSU's decision. You don't know.

[ScottM]

First of all, ScottM is taking some pretty serious guff here. I figure he's just young and brash. His perspective will probably change as he gets older.

I'm older, and, certainly, more cynical than most posts might suggest. Unlike some, I don't allow sophomoric whining to get in the way of economic reasoning, or a damn good pricing disparity between a company's book value and its underlying assets. Besides, I'm not "brash", but rather exceedingly confident. Besides, if anybody takes what's posted here too seriously, they have only themselves to blame for their own problems.

Things change over time, except for my undying loathing for that junior college in Fargo.

[tony]

Sicatoka, we'll just have to disagree.

PCM, well I'm glad you care about NDSU's problems.

ScottM, more cynical? Did you mean less cynical?

redwing77, I wouldn't flame you for that. Personally, I think football drives NDSU's athletic department, not UND's hockey program, but I can disagree with you without flaming ya.

Lawkota, I was being a funny guy by implying that you misunderstood the analogy but you opened it up by suggesting that I was likening the "demise" of DII to WWII. (I mock my friends too - usually they have the benefit of being able to kick my ass as soon as I'm done though).

Churchill and Chamberlain led different parties, served the same state. Same can be said for Chuck and Chapman (I like alliteration as much as analogies). I agree with most of your points, especially that going DI is a going to be huge and difficult undertaking for NDSU.

But if Kupchella really does understand the nature of the changes in DII, what is his Churchillian plan for dealing with them?

If NCAA rules were to become less mercenary and more educationally rational, if the rapid escalation of the cost of Division I sports were to be reversed somehow, if the restrictions on schools making the move were made less severe, or if very many NCC schools make the move to D-I, then we could well give it some extra consideration.

That is not a plan; that is hoping Germany will come to its senses. The changing nature of DII gets no mention at all.

Anyway, I've taken this way off topic. Before raising ticket prices again or ending the rivalry, Kupchella and Thomas should ask themselves, "How does this serve the state?"

[PCM]

PCM, well I'm glad you care about NDSU's problems.

Actually, I don't. I was merely pointing something out.

[lawkota]

tony, as near as I can tell, UND is focused on perserving the NCC as an elite DII conference. Obviously, that is becoming increasingly difficult but it is something they have stated they are willing to work for. I have been assured they will be active in finding quality schools to fill the huge voids left by NDSU and SDSU and they will fight scholarship reduction. While scholarship reduction is a ominous threat, it is by no means a done deal. When (if) it happens, they will have to reassess their position based on the degree of the cuts and their effect on the DII programs, specifically football and basketball.

In the end, though, they may just have a different philosophy of what athletics is for. I believe that Kupchella believes that athletics serves as a diversion for students and an attraction for alumni. In other words, it is not important within the scope of the university's mission. Of course, it helps if your programs can generate regional, or even national, recognition for the school. They feel that they get this from the hockey program and the occassional national title in DII. They also feel that a step up to D-I will not add anything in this regard. In this respect, I agree.

I happen to disagree with the underlying philosophy though. I believe that a university, a state flagship university, should strive to the highest level of competition it is capable of, that includes athletics. It should stay with its peers.

That being said though, I am not calling Kupchella uninformed or nearsighted. We just disagree. And if I can accept that, someone who desperately wants UND to follow NDSU, what can't you, someone who shouldn't care.

[redwing77]

I guess I personally believe that every medium to large university should have at least one DI sport of some sort. The financial benefits can outweigh the costs and it brings better advertising and tourism to the college. Look at it this way:

Would ESPN even know where ND is if UND didn't have its hockey program? If we went DIII tommorrow with our hockey program or even DII (not sure if DII hockey exists to be honest) would anyone remember us in the big time? We'd barely make USCHO.

NDSU's move to DI football is just an attempt to put their college on the athletic "map." It SHOULD be nothing more than that. If it is meant to be a bash at the NCC and DII, we'll know soon enough. I think a major step towards eliminatig this more negative perception is for NDSU and UND to continue the rivalry. If either school breaks it off, then it really is going to be percieved as truly negative.

[The Sicatoka]

That is not a plan;

Nope, that's not a plan.

Carr Sports Associates gave, OK, sold, NDSU a road map, a plan:

- consensus

- market assessment

- strategic plan for finances, facilities, and personel

- "Secure an acceptable conference membership before making the decision to reclassify to I-AA."

Is an ignored plan better than "not a plan"?

[jimdahl]

I find it ironic that Bison fans have no problem with Pres. Chapman's desire to apply the business concept competition when it comes to duplicating programs at UND. But when it comes to applying the business concept of supply and demand to ticket prices at an athletic event, suddenly they are concerned about the greater good.

Personally, I can't wait to hear the hypocritical justifications coming from these same fans when the NDSU administration starts variable ticketing pricing. Fortunately, given the NDSU's need for increased revenue during the transition, I suspect I won't have to wait long.

If some Bison fans are really so offended by athletics being run with a business mentality (and are not just shortsightedly picking on this because of an anti-anything UND reflex), it's going to be a hilarious 5 years.

[bisonguy]

lawkota,

The scholarship reductions are close at hand. The last vote of D2 schools for scholarship reduction in football was rejected by only six(?) votes. The non-fully funded schools have increased and are becoming more powerful in D2. When the vote comes around again, it won't be that close.

redwing77 or other hockey fan,

How many UND hockey games are on ESPN? What are the TV ratings for DI hockey?

ESPN also broadcasts the National Spelling Bee, did that put St. Mark's middle school on the map?

[lawkota]

I'll admit that reductions are coming but that only affects 2 sports, neither of which is the bread and butter at UND. If scholarship reduction were off the table for football, would NDSU's decision have been the same? How about if they had been successful in adding DI hockey? If the NCAA adopted a policy of all sports/single division, would UND's position change?

Nevertheless, my primary point still stands. UND is in a different position from NDSU and I don't feel it's fair to paint their administration as ignorant or nearsighted simply because they have adopted a different path. That is what tony implies on a regular basis and it's inaccurate. You may disagree with me on a wide variety issues, that doesn't make me stupid.

BTW, UND hockey has been on ESPN a total of 8 times since 1987. That's not much and the ratings aren't all that great. But how many times will the Bison be on ESPN (or other network) in the next 20 years and what will the ratings be for those games? Lower level DI is a better level of competition but it flies just as far below the radar as DII.

[bisonguy]

I'll admit that reductions are coming but that only affects 2 sports, neither of which is the bread and butter at UND. If scholarship reduction were off the table for football, would NDSU's decision have been the same? How about if they had been successful in adding DI hockey? If the NCAA adopted a policy of all sports/single division, would UND's position change?

Nevertheless, my primary point still stands. UND is in a different position from NDSU and I don't feel it's fair to paint their administration as ignorant or nearsighted simply because they have adopted a different path. That is what tony implies on a regular basis and it's inaccurate. You may disagree with me on a wide variety issues, that doesn't make me stupid.

BTW, UND hockey has been on ESPN a total of 8 times since 1987. That's not much and the ratings aren't all that great. But how many times will the Bison be on ESPN (or other network) in the next 20 years and what will the ratings be for those games? Lower level DI is a better level of competition but it flies just as far below the radar as DII.

lawkota,

I completely agree that UND and NDSU are different animals and have different engines driving the athletic programs. I think NDSU would have moved up even if scholarship reductions were off the table. NDSU has wanted and tried to move up in the past, it just took longer than anticipated.

[tony]

Lawkota, if Kupchella doesn't think DII is going to change despite the influx of schools the size of Fargo North, he is near-sighted. That said, I can fully accept that what is good for NDSU might not be good for UND.

At this point, I want UND to stay in DII. Now that the DI NCC is no longer a possibility, it would hurt more than help as UND would just represent another competitor for conference membership and for athletes.

[star2city]

Personally, I can't wait to hear the hypocritical justifications coming from these same fans when the NDSU administration starts variable ticketing pricing.

[lawkota]

lawkota, if Kupchella doesn't think DII is going to change despite the influx of schools the size of Fargo North, he is near-sighted.

[sigh] Yes, that would be nearsighted, if it were true. I don't believe he thinks that. I disagree with him but not because he doesn't have a clear grasp of the situation. Perhaps you know him better than I though. I've only talked to him a couple times. Most of my conversations are with others in the athletic department or FSC.

I know now that I won't change your opinion of Kupchella as anything other than a "Chamberlain" and we've bored the other posters long enough. Besides, bantering with you is Sicatoka's job.

[redwing77]

Bah. I think that it is going to help UND in a shallow sort of way. It means that we have a better chance of getting more NCs. But anyways, I think that the NCC should invite Colorado College now that NDSU is gone and that DIII bill has apparently passed. That way there may be a new rivalry forming. Perhaps they can schedule a CC v UND football + hockey weekend.