Women's/Men's Basketball Attendance

[The Sicatoka]

6000 average in six years is a lovely goal.

(And congrats on getting NDSU attendance back to where it was in '98, '99, and '03.)

However, it forces one to look at what UND is doing by putting nearly 12000 per game into REA for hockey.

UND has tapped into the hockey culture and the fans show up. Yet I'm told this is a BB-culture region. Yet, where are the fans of the college game?

Could it be the actual product?

Let me explain:

No one will confuse UND or NDSU for Duke or North Carolina in college BB. Not a lot of UND or NDSU guys go on to the NBA. The talent you see there isn't the best you can find (live or on TV).

But yesterday, in hockey's mid-season showcase, the captain of the NHL Blackhawks is a UND alumnus. He was in a Sioux jersey two seasons ago and an NHL captain today. The scoring leader for New Jersey (and another of their top five scorers) are UND alumni. You can't find much better talent.

Ben Woodside is good, but he's not Tyler Hansbrough.

Travis Zajac is Travis Zajac; Zach Parise is Zach Parise; Jon Toews is Jon Toews: They're some of the best in the best professional league in the world. And UND fans watched them play in college.

You go to REA and you see the best at that level, and soon to be at the next level. You don't do that at The Betty or the BSA.

Could it be that, to a majority of regional BB fans, the product isn't worth the price (when a regional BB fan can stay home and watch Duke and UNC on TV)?

PS - The Fargo Force is averaging 3500+ in year one. They're outdrawing NDSU and UND. That's a pretty tough indictment toward NDSU (and UND) BB attendance prospects: Where are the college BB fans?

[coach daddy]

You label 04-05 as a throwaway year because the the "fab four" wasn't playing, yet you project quadrupling attendance withing two more years after the fab four are gone. Why are those not throwaway years as well without the "fab four"?

Great point!!! They have hyped this group to no end (deservedly so, they are very good). There is nothing in the recruiting or sitting on the bench that makes anyone think they'll be a Summit contender after this year. In my opinion, to project any attendance increase after this season for NDSU bball is ludicrous. I hope that isn't how they are pimping their new arena to the taxpayers of Fargo. No one with any knowledge of bball believes that their program will be anything more than what it was prior to the Fab 4 showing up; average to below average. How many years between conference titles in the NCC? More than 5 I think.

[Matt]

Yet I'm told this is a BB-culture region

If by "region" you mean the Southern RR Valley, then I would say yes-high school through college-more BB tickets sold and games watched. If you mean the Northern RR Valley, I would say no.

[FargoBison]

Great point!!! They have hyped this group to no end (deservedly so, they are very good). There is nothing in the recruiting or sitting on the bench that makes anyone think they'll be a Summit contender after this year. In my opinion, to project any attendance increase after this season for NDSU bball is ludicrous. I hope that isn't how they are pimping their new arena to the taxpayers of Fargo. No one with any knowledge of bball believes that their program will be anything more than what it was prior to the Fab 4 showing up; average to below average. How many years between conference titles in the NCC? More than 5 I think.

There is nothing in the recruiting? Saul just had a very good recruiting class, one or two of those players might have an impact right away. Tveidt also returns, and there is transfer from UNI that sounds promising.

As for the Force, they have the new arena novelty and still have to give many tickets away in order to get people to the games.

[FargoBison]

You label 04-05 as a throwaway year because the the "fab four" wasn't playing, yet you project quadrupling attendance withing two more years after the fab four are gone. Why are those not throwaway years as well without the "fab four"?

In 2004-05 Miles redshirted his 4 best players, Saul won't be doing that next year. Most likely only Aaberg will redshirt next year. That said, I think our attendance stablizes until the arena situation works out.

[Hammersmith]

I'm going to stand by my statement that NDSU MBB attendance will continue to grow over the next few years and only time will prove me right or wrong. I think Matt misunderstood me a bit with my quadruple comment. I said that NDSU's attendance in three years(this one and two more) might quadruple UND's attendance in three years, not that NDSU's attendance in three years might quadruple what it is now. At that time, I can see NDSU's attendance being in the 4100-4600 range with UND's around 1100-1300. I could very well be wrong(a lot can happen in three years), but it's well within the range of possibilities.

While I normally think quite highly of coach daddy's basketball comments, I think he's wrong regarding NDSU's chances beyond this year. While there will be a dropoff, I don't believe it will be the catastrophic one he seems to be predicting. Tonight's game will be quite telling, but, if we win, there's a decent chance we'll sweep the Summit this year. Even with a talent dropoff, we'll still be in contention next year. Maybe we'll win the Summit tourney, maybe we won't, but we won't be out of the discussion and we'll probably be in the top three or four with ORU, Oakland & IUPUI.

As for why I think we'll continue to see attendance growth even without the "fab four", it's because the last four years have seen a build of momentum that I'm not sure NDSU MBB has ever had. Short of absolutely flopping next season, I think that momentum will continue even with what will be, now, an average season. Many previous seasons of reported attendance were either the result of inflated numbers or were propped up by the women's program(much like you guys the past few years). The current numbers are the result of accurate counting and the men standing alone without conference doubleheaders. That's why I'll put up last season's 3,034 against any 3,500 or 4,000 of seasons past.

Lastly, I think my "throwaway" comment was also valid. Miles sacrificed that season for the sake of the future and the play that year was horrible. The schedule was even worse. Other than SDSU, the best game on that schedule was Mankato. Those two games joined other hot tickets like Concordia(Mhd), Si Tanka-Huron, Upper Iowa, Dakota Wesleyan, and a nice sampling of DAC schools. Hell, your men's schedule this year is better than what we went through back then(not much better mind you, but enough).

Sic, the hockey story is wonderful, but how are you going to build on it to help pay for the DI move? Are you going to increase hockey attendance significantly? Can't do that, you're already at sell out levels. Raise ticket prices? Would GF and the UND fan base accept more than $25 for a regular ticket? To me, it looks like UND hockey is nearly maxed out as a revenue source. Even if you push hard in football and basketball, those facilities don't have that much room for growth. About 2,000 in football, and 1,500 in basketball. Combined with your priority seating program being linked to hockey, it's those numbers that would keep me up at nights growing new ulcers if I were AD Faison.

I'm probably going to be wrong with some of the above, and maybe even all of it, but none of it is even close to impossible, and little is even unlikely. We'll just have to wait and see. Now, the Bison/Oakland game is about to tipoff and it's available for free on channelsurfing.net, so I'll see you after the game.

[Dagger]

How does having twice as many fans attending NDSU MBB games as UND(even without ORU factored in) equal "roughly the same attendance numbers"? I don't get that. While we would always like to see higher attendance, the NDSU men's program has had healthy growth for the past four years. I stated earlier that it was 300-500 per year, but I just crunched the numbers and it appears I was wrong. The average growth per year is 450, and we're on trend to match that this year. There's a real possibility of tripling UND's numbers by the end of this year and quadrupling within two more.

And don't give me the "larger metro area" excuse; that thought doesn't fly for college athletics. Schools from smaller communities regularly have larger attendances than their big city counterparts because the small-town college is often the only major draw in town. The big city school is competing against a host of other activities for fans. While the gap between F/M and GF isn't small town/big city in scale, we do have two other colleges, a bunch more high schools, a USHL team that is fresh and new, and all the additional movie, dining and club/bar experiences that our larger size creates. If we do manage to get close to 3500 this year as projected, it will be accomplished in the worst winter in a decade and the worst economic year since the Great Depression. If we do it, I'll consider that a smashing success.

At our current rate of growth, we will sell out the BSA(cap. ~6300) within six years and the new arena(~6000) will probably sell out by its second year if construction starts this spring. Smack our women's attendance all you want(it deserves it right now), but the men's attendance is just about perfect from where we started from on this DI road.

The much larger population base definitely can make a big difference. Granted there is competiton from other schools but if marketed right at least you have potential people to sell it to. The other colleges in Fargo don't draw anybody to there games anyway. When NDSU's fab four graduate and your men's team possibly becomes rather ordinary it's possible you might be able to shoot a cannon through the Bison sports arena for a lot of your games.

NDSU Men's Attendance

2004-05: 1654(throwaway year with "fab-four" redshirting)

2005-06: 2488 (+834)

2006-07: 2625 (+137)

2007-08: 3034 (+409)

2008-09: 3468 (+454) projected

[Dagger]

I guess I entered my previous post poorly. The much larger population in Fargo can definitely make a big difference. Granted there is competition from other schools but if marketed right at least you have a larger populaton to sell it to. The other colleges in Fargo don't draw anybody to there games anyway. When NDSU's fab four graduate and your men's team possibly becomes very ordinary, you might very well be able to shoot a cannon through the Bison sports arena at a lot of the games. Unless you have a really great team the only games a lot of people come to are the high profile games if you get them in Fargo. Fans in Fargo and Grand Forks will quit coming in a hurry unless your team is great or the game has a certain appeal. We have a lot of fair weather fans in both cities. At least the Fargo area has a lot more possible fair weather fans to choose from.

[bincitysioux]

I think we should leave hockey out of this as it is an entirely different beast.

I'll stick to what I said earlier..........everyone loves a winner. Without checking, I'll guess that the UND women's team last year was something like 12-1 at this point last year. Attendance was ~2,200 per game. This year they are 6-8, and we drew around 1,000 for our last two home games. After beating UMKC, the men's team drew 1,800 for their first home game against an NSIC team. Since then (some big losses and some BAD close wins), around or under 1,000.

Hammersmith, the NDSU men's team is doing great, and kudos to them for what they've done recently. Obviously, I would have loved to have had some of those players wearing green & white instead of green & yellow. But I think that your attendance expectations are rather lofty. Remember............everyone loves a winner. After Miles' exceptional recruiting class graduates at the end of this season, will the big wins continue? Time will tell of course. But these things seem to go in cycles. Which is why UND drew 4,000-5,000 in the early 90's and are drawing ~1,000 now. Because we aren't very good now, and we were great then. The NDSU teams of the last 2-3 years are probably the most talented the school has ever put on the floor.

I also think you really underestimate the factor of the population of the F-M area in NDSU's attendance figures in all sports. Do you really think the Red Hawks would do so well if they were located in Minot, Bismarck, or even Grand Forks? I am also confident that a big factor in the disparity between attendance figures between UND and NDSU in the sports of football, basketball, and volleyball has alot to do with the marketing machine at NDSU. They do a great job, and at UND they do not. For every 10 NDSU basketball commercials I hear on the radio, I hear one for UND. I would even say I've heard NDSU volleyball coach Eric Hinterstocker on the radio more times over the last year than I've heard the UND football coach. Which is a good case in point about NDSU's volleyball team........everyone loves a winner. UND's volleyball team was also very good this year, 24-4 I think, and drew only about 1/3 of what NDSU did.

[Hammersmith]

See, I was wrong already. Bison drop the Oakland game by one point. No sweep for us.

[Matt]

See, I was wrong already. Bison drop the Oakland game by one point. No sweep for us.

They could go winnless in conference play as long as they win the conf tournament.

[coach daddy]

I'm going to stand by my statement that NDSU MBB attendance will continue to grow over the next few years and only time will prove me right or wrong. I think Matt misunderstood me a bit with my quadruple comment. I said that NDSU's attendance in three years(this one and two more) might quadruple UND's attendance in three years, not that NDSU's attendance in three years might quadruple what it is now. At that time, I can see NDSU's attendance being in the 4100-4600 range with UND's around 1100-1300. I could very well be wrong(a lot can happen in three years), but it's well within the range of possibilities.

While I normally think quite highly of coach daddy's basketball comments, I think he's wrong regarding NDSU's chances beyond this year. While there will be a dropoff, I don't believe it will be the catastrophic one he seems to be predicting. Tonight's game will be quite telling, but, if we win, there's a decent chance we'll sweep the Summit this year. Even with a talent dropoff, we'll still be in contention next year. Maybe we'll win the Summit tourney, maybe we won't, but we won't be out of the discussion and we'll probably be in the top three or four with ORU, Oakland & IUPUI.

As for why I think we'll continue to see attendance growth even without the "fab four", it's because the last four years have seen a build of momentum that I'm not sure NDSU MBB has ever had. Short of absolutely flopping next season, I think that momentum will continue even with what will be, now, an average season. Many previous seasons of reported attendance were either the result of inflated numbers or were propped up by the women's program(much like you guys the past few years). The current numbers are the result of accurate counting and the men standing alone without conference doubleheaders. That's why I'll put up last season's 3,034 against any 3,500 or 4,000 of seasons past.

Lastly, I think my "throwaway" comment was also valid. Miles sacrificed that season for the sake of the future and the play that year was horrible. The schedule was even worse. Other than SDSU, the best game on that schedule was Mankato. Those two games joined other hot tickets like Concordia(Mhd), Si Tanka-Huron, Upper Iowa, Dakota Wesleyan, and a nice sampling of DAC schools. Hell, your men's schedule this year is better than what we went through back then(not much better mind you, but enough).

Sic, the hockey story is wonderful, but how are you going to build on it to help pay for the DI move? Are you going to increase hockey attendance significantly? Can't do that, you're already at sell out levels. Raise ticket prices? Would GF and the UND fan base accept more than $25 for a regular ticket? To me, it looks like UND hockey is nearly maxed out as a revenue source. Even if you push hard in football and basketball, those facilities don't have that much room for growth. About 2,000 in football, and 1,500 in basketball. Combined with your priority seating program being linked to hockey, it's those numbers that would keep me up at nights growing new ulcers if I were AD Faison.

I'm probably going to be wrong with some of the above, and maybe even all of it, but none of it is even close to impossible, and little is even unlikely. We'll just have to wait and see. Now, the Bison/Oakland game is about to tipoff and it's available for free on channelsurfing.net, so I'll see you after the game.

While I certainly understand the optimism and hope bball fans have at NDSU (as a bball fan, I'd probably feel the same way if I was an SU fan), the facts are there is no one coming in that tells us they'll be players the caliber of what is leaving. I've read post after post on Bison bball where people complain about the short bench, the lack of scoring, and play from the bench, etc. I hope there are players coming and I hope SU does succeed because I want to see bball succeed in No. Dak. (right now, even w/our 3-0 record in the DAC, it isn't suceeeding here).

[new2sioux2]

6000 average in six years is a lovely goal.

(And congrats on getting NDSU attendance back to where it was in '98, '99, and '03.)

However, it forces one to look at what UND is doing by putting nearly 12000 per game into REA for hockey.

UND has tapped into the hockey culture and the fans show up. Yet I'm told this is a BB-culture region. Yet, where are the fans of the college game?

Could it be the actual product?

Let me explain:

No one will confuse UND or NDSU for Duke or North Carolina in college BB. Not a lot of UND or NDSU guys go on to the NBA. The talent you see there isn't the best you can find (live or on TV).

But yesterday, in hockey's mid-season showcase, the captain of the NHL Blackhawks is a UND alumnus. He was in a Sioux jersey two seasons ago and an NHL captain today. The scoring leader for New Jersey (and another of their top five scorers) are UND alumni. You can't find much better talent.

Ben Woodside is good, but he's not Tyler Hansbrough.

Travis Zajac is Travis Zajac; Zach Parise is Zach Parise; Jon Toews is Jon Toews: They're some of the best in the best professional league in the world. And UND fans watched them play in college.

You go to REA and you see the best at that level, and soon to be at the next level. You don't do that at The Betty or the BSA.

Could it be that, to a majority of regional BB fans, the product isn't worth the price (when a regional BB fan can stay home and watch Duke and UNC on TV)?

PS - The Fargo Force is averaging 3500+ in year one. They're outdrawing NDSU and UND. That's a pretty tough indictment toward NDSU (and UND) BB attendance prospects: Where are the college BB fans?

Of course it is. UND in hockey is the Duke of basketball. Recruiting is not nearly as hard, because kids want to come to UND because of the success. Hockey very much is the darling of UND. They spend, I'm sure, far more on marketing, etc and were lucky enough to get a fantastic facility. As for the other sports, especially now with being ineligible, it is hard to recruit. Who wants to enjoy the balmy winters of ND. Success makes for fututre success (easier recruiting, more support, more exposure) I feel bad for the drop in attendance especially for UND WBB. If WBB was still playing a DII schedule, I'm sure they would be ranked in the nation and doing what we are used to. I think considering the schedule, thay are doing as expected, if not a little better. They had no desire to move up, our recruiting the past 2 years has not been great for whatever reason, we are playing more talented athletes, and we can't get any support. I do think it will get better, but if fans could stick it out and support them, that in itself helps with recruiting because at least you play in front of a crowd.

[Hansel]

I also think you really underestimate the factor of the population of the F-M area in NDSU's attendance figures in all sports.

Northern State averages more fans playing DII basketball in Aberdeen than St John's does playing Big East basketball in NYC or USC playing Pac-10 ball in LA. There is something to be said for being the only game in town.

[dakotadan]

And Fargo is more similar to Aberdeen than it is to NYC or LA. I think you are putting too much enphasis on MSUM taking fans away from NDSU.

[bincitysioux]

2008-09 ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR "REGIONAL" SCHOOLS

*Including Northern Colorado for comarative purposes and NCC history

MEN

Northern Iowa (8-6) : 3,416

Montana St. (4-1) : 2,837

NDSU (8-5) : 2,823

Montana (7-7) : 2,580

SDSU (6-10) : 1,853

Northern Colorado (5-10) : 1,097

USD (12-5) : 1,088

North Dakota (8-5) : 995

WOMEN

Montana (12-3) : 3,351

SDSU (14-1) : 2,267

North Dakota (6-9) : 1,358

Montana St. (6-7) : 1,235

NDSU (4-7) : 1,118

Northern Iowa (3-9) : 958

Northern Colorado (7-7) : 905

USD (11-3) : 810

ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR FORMER NCC SCHOOLS DURING FIRST TRANSTIONAL SEASON

MEN

NDSU: 1,654

SDSU: 1,617

Northern Colorado 729

USD: 1,088

North Dakota: 995

WOMEN

NDSU: 1,593

SDSU: 1,473

North Dakota: 1,358

USD: 810

Northern Colorado: 326

ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR FORMER NCC SCHOOLS DURING LAST YEAR OF DII

MEN

SDSU: 3,266

USD: 2,885

NDSU: 2,440

North Dakota: 1,866

Northern Colorado: 637

WOMEN

NDSU: 2,512

SDSU: 2,484

USD: 2,092

North Dakota: 1,901

Northern Colorado: 419

NET CHANGE IN ATTENDANCE FROM LAST DII SEASON TO FIRST DI SEASON

MEN

USD: -62%

SDSU: -50%

North Dakota: -47%

NDSU: -32%

Northern Colorado: +14%

WOMEN

USD: -61%

SDSU: -41%

NDSU: -37%

North Dakota: -29%

Northern Colorado: -22%

NET CHANGE IN ATTENDANCE FROM LAST DII SEASON TO FULL DI STATUS

MEN

Northern Colorado: +42%

NDSU: +14%

SDSU: -43%

USD: ? ? ?

North Dakota: ? ? ?

WOMEN

Northern Colorado: +54%

SDSU: -9%

NDSU: -55%

USD: ? ? ?

North Dakota: ? ? ?

As we can see, everyone's (except UNC who never drew well at all) attendance drops like a rock as the transition begins. And as the transition ends, so far only NDSU and UNC have increased attendance from where they were at the end of their DII days.

Regarding the seemingly current lack of interest in Sioux basketball, I think it will get better quickly. I expect attendance to rise as this season progresses. And then even moreso in the immediate future as fans become more familiar with Great West teams and their is title race to participate in. And hopefully we find a better conference home as the transition ends. Then interest should really rise. That is, if we are competetive.

[coach daddy]

2008-09 ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR "REGIONAL" SCHOOLS

*Including Northern Colorado for comarative purposes and NCC history

MEN

Northern Iowa (8-6) : 3,416

Montana St. (4-1) : 2,837

NDSU (8-5) : 2,823

Montana (7-7) : 2,580

SDSU (6-10) : 1,853

Northern Colorado (5-10) : 1,097

USD (12-5) : 1,088

North Dakota (8-5) : 995

WOMEN

Montana (12-3) : 3,351

SDSU (14-1) : 2,267

North Dakota (6-9) : 1,358

Montana St. (6-7) : 1,235

NDSU (4-7) : 1,118

Northern Iowa (3-9) : 958

Northern Colorado (7-7) : 905

USD (11-3) : 810

ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR FORMER NCC SCHOOLS DURING FIRST TRANSTIONAL SEASON

MEN

NDSU: 1,654

SDSU: 1,617

Northern Colorado 729

USD: 1,088

North Dakota: 995

WOMEN

NDSU: 1,593

SDSU: 1,473

North Dakota: 1,358

USD: 810

Northern Colorado: 326

ATTENDANCE FIGURES FOR FORMER NCC SCHOOLS DURING LAST YEAR OF DII

MEN

SDSU: 3,266

USD: 2,885

NDSU: 2,440

North Dakota: 1,866

Northern Colorado: 637

WOMEN

NDSU: 2,512

SDSU: 2,484

USD: 2,092

North Dakota: 1,901

Northern Colorado: 419

NET CHANGE IN ATTENDANCE FROM LAST DII SEASON TO FIRST DI SEASON

MEN

USD: -62%

SDSU: -50%

North Dakota: -47%

NDSU: -32%

Northern Colorado: +14%

WOMEN

USD: -61%

SDSU: -41%

NDSU: -37%

North Dakota: -29%

Northern Colorado: -22%

NET CHANGE IN ATTENDANCE FROM LAST DII SEASON TO FULL DI STATUS

MEN

Northern Colorado: +42%

NDSU: +14%

SDSU: -43%

USD: ? ? ?

North Dakota: ? ? ?

WOMEN

Northern Colorado: +54%

SDSU: -9%

NDSU: -55%

USD: ? ? ?

North Dakota: ? ? ?

As we can see, everyone's (except UNC who never drew well at all) attendance drops like a rock as the transition begins. And as the transition ends, so far only NDSU and UNC have increased attendance from where they were at the end of their DII days.

Regarding the seemingly current lack of interest in Sioux basketball, I think it will get better quickly. I expect attendance to rise as this season progresses. And then even moreso in the immediate future as fans become more familiar with Great West teams and their is title race to participate in. And hopefully we find a better conference home as the transition ends. Then interest should really rise. That is, if we are competetive.

Great homework!!! Hope you're right.