The Rivalry

[tony]

Interesting development in the Forum today. The administration is taking on UND in the press for the first time that I can remember.

First shots

Forum Editorial

President Chapman's Response to Kupchella

It's about time. Not necessarily because NDSU is always right but you can't have a debate when only one side is doing all the talking. Apparently the Forum acknowledges that UND has made a series of efforts at stopping NDSU from going DI.

[The Sicatoka]

I can't disagree with great portions of what is said in there. I'd still like to touch on a few things:

1. Why does the state with the lowest crime rate in the nation need two PhD Criminal Justice programs? Isn't that a formula just screaming for out-migration? (I won't go into why and how there are two.)

2. I'd like to see "the books" .... at both places.

3. A RRV Research Corridor would help the whole state. The schools need to work together on that one. I'm seeing the Congressional delegation doing things on one end of it. Where's the new work and projects on the other end?

Remember, I try to think like a taxpayer first and foremost.

[PCM]

Sorry, but any editorial that makes this statement...

In recent months UND tried to scuttle NDSU

[airmail]

What, exactly, did UND to "scuttle" this effort?

We maintained our Division II status. That was the last thing they wanted us to do...

[PCM]

We maintained our Division II status. That was the last thing they wanted us to do...

Bingo.

[tony]

All editorials should be taken with a grain of salt. However, you can't discount all the points made just because you are quibbling with one sentence.

I believe the editorial is referring to the poorly-worded piece of proposed legislation that would have made it nearly impossible for NDSU to go DI while specifically exempting UND from the same rules. Many, if not most, rational people might be expectd to deduce that this idea traces its ancestory back to UND given the pattern of behavior Kupchella has been exhibiting.

Don't know who you mean by "they" as in "that's the last thing they wanted us to do" but it's fine by me if UND stays in DII. Having them go DI sure doesn't help NDSU unless a big chunk of the NCC comes along too. OTOH, having UND stay in DII makes NDSU's recruiting job a bit easier while helping NDSU differentiate itself from the twenty or so DII schools in the region. I doubt it will hurt UND any because they will just become a bigger fish in a smaller pond - i.e. they won't have to fight through NDSU, UNC, and maybe SDSU on their way to national playoffs. It could end up being a positive thing for both schools.

[PCM]

However, you can't discount all the points made just because you are quibbling with one sentence.

Yes, I can, and I did. I recognize and reject blantant homerism journalism when I see it. Sue me.

I believe the editorial is referring to the poorly-worded piece of proposed legislation that would have made it nearly impossible for NDSU to go DI while specifically exempting UND from the same rules. Many, if not most, rational people might be expectd to deduce that this idea traces its ancestory back to UND given the pattern of behavior Kupchella has been exhibiting.

Ah, the Vast Fighting Sioux Conspiracy raises its ugly head again. You, Chapman and the Forum simply assume that this was UND's doing, even though there's no proof of it.

You see it as a UND conspiracy. I see it as the North Dakota legislature acting as its typical, financially conservative self.

Tell me, why did South Dakota's legislature pass a similar provision related to SDSU's DIAA bid? Did UND cause that to happen to that, too?

[The Sicatoka]

.... the editorial is referring to the poorly-worded piece of proposed legislation that would have made it nearly impossible for NDSU to go DI ....

If memory serves, that legislation was introduced by an NDSU alumnus.

Fifty-eighth Legislative Assembly HOUSE BILL NO. 1356 of North Dakota

Introduced by Representatives Froelich, Wald

A BILL for an Act relating to the use of funds on behalf of division I designation within the

national collegiate athletic association.

Lead sponsor, Rep. Froelich's, Legislative Biography:

Ranching. Bismarck Junior College. North Dakota State University.National Guard 6 years. County commissioner 1994-98. North Dakota local brand inspection. North Dakota Stockmen's Association. American Legion. Past member of Knights of Columbus. Elks. Married. 4 children. Wife's name Kathryn. House since 1999.

In the sake of disclosure, the other sponsor (Wald) is UND 1959.

Haven't we done this before?

[airmail]

Don't know who you mean by "they" as in "that's the last thing they wanted us to do" but it's fine by me if UND stays in DII. Having them go DI sure doesn't help NDSU unless a big chunk of the NCC comes along too.

[BisonMav]

airmail Posted on May 1 2003, 03:59 PM

[airmail]

I am not one of "They".

So are you one of "us"?

Only joking... I'm sure many people feel the same way you do. I do, however, stand by my thoughts on the 'SU administration...

[jimdahl]

To claim that the NDSU administration didn't greatly desire the elite of the NCC to follow NDSU to D-IAA after their announcement is to deny history. At the press conference announcing the move they even announced that they were voluntarily waiting an EXTRA year before the prohibitively long probation period in the hopes that other NCC schools might reconsider.

[tony]

Today's special: three replies for the price of one!

Sicatoka, hard to take your analysis seriously when you think that McFeely is a Bison booster A lot of legislation has a Democratic and Republican sponsor - that doesn't mean that one party does not constitute the majority of the support for it. The proponents of that legislation probably had to look long and hard to find a guy with an NDSU background to help trot out that lame horse of a bill but the the telling point is which sponsors actually voted for or debated in favor of it. Sometimes a rep will sponsor something just so the issue gets aired and put to rest once and for all.

PCM, sue you? If UND was a business, what they're doing would constitute racketeering and I could I can't force you to accept an argument if you're dead-set against doing so, so I won't try, but I've got to wonder, do you read the Herald? I mean "Blatant Homer" is the managing editor, isn't he?

airmail, you could be right, but NDSU never really lobbied for UND to move up. You're making a bigger leap than the Forum editorial guy is. You certainly never saw Chapman or Taylor writing letters to the editor saying how great it would be if the NCC went DI together. In general, Chapman seems more focused on his vision of what NDSU should become and how it can best serve North Dakota, rather than what UND should do. SDSU, otoh, did lobby the rest of the league pretty hard - so your "they" fits their administrators better than NDSU's.

[bisonguy]

At the press conference announcing the move they even announced that they were voluntarily waiting an EXTRA year before the prohibitively long probation period in the hopes that other NCC schools might reconsider.

AND to provide the student athletes more time to decide if they wanted to be in a postseason ineliglible program. It may have been a harsh reality to some student athletes if the administration just proclaimed, "No playoffs next year! We're going DI. If you don't like it, you have two weeks to transfer."

I don't think NDSU was holding their breath for anyone to make the decision, except maybe SDSU. When SDSU pitched the idea of the NCC moving to DI, the only other school receptive to the idea was NDSU.

[jimdahl]

I disagree.

Taylor said finding a Division I league will be his priority in the coming months. Without a conference, piecing together a required Division I schedule by next fall would have been difficult, he said.

Plus, he said, it gives other NCC schools a window to join Division I.

And:

Four of nine North Central Conference schools meeting tonight in Alexandria, Minn., want the entire NCC to try for Division I status, said North Dakota State University President Joseph Chapman.

Chapman said. "Division II is headed in a direction that we're not going. It's very important that we stay together as a group."

All from the Forum. I repeat: NDSU administration was hoping very much that other NCC schools would follow their lead.

[PCM]

I can't force you to accept an argument if you're dead-set against doing so, so I won't try, but I've got to wonder, do you read the Herald? I mean "Blatant Homer" is the managing editor, isn't he?

Nice red herring, Tony. We weren't discussing something the Herald wrote. We were discussing what the Forum wrote.

For the record, when the Herald advanced the argument that NDSU going DI would invite more corruption in its athletic program, I stated on this board that it was a bogus argument and a poor reason to oppose the move.

As I said, I recognize blatant homerism when I see it. Doesn't matter if it's the Herald or the Forum.

[bisonguy]

jimdahl,

Three of the four schools are moving up. Was NDSU holding their breath for one more school? I do admit, four NCC schools would have been better.

I never denied that NDSU was hoping for more NCC school(s) to move up, I was just saying that it was only part of the reason for the extra year.

[ScottM]

Without getting into the details, I've always been convinced that the NoDak higher ed system has been marked by redundancy, administrative overlap, personal/local fiefdoms and general inefficiencies. I don't see UND as part of grand plot to undermine 'SU, so much as I see 'SU trying to burnish itself in Chapman's image, academically and otherwise. Its attempts to create a "downtown campus" in Fargo is amusing, and pathetic. Moreover, its sad attempts to link D1 athletics with academic prowess are equally sad.

It really makes no sense for 'SU to create substantially similar PhD programs already in place at UND, a mere hour away, just as it makes no sense for UND to duplicate 'SU programs in architecture and/or pharmacy. NoDak is a small, and getting smaller, state with limited educational resources. It should really start to run higher-ed like a business and cut out the fat. A good place to start would be the four-year schools in Mayville and Valley City, both within a short drive of Fargo and/or GF.

As far as the D-1 crap, I think the Big Sky Conference threw more cold water on 'SU than UND ever did. However, whatever keeps the "Marcia Watchers in Fargo" happy.

[tony]

Hey, they gave a lot of reasons for not going DI immediately. The primary one was scheduling. Yeah, they would have liked the NCC to go together because it makes sense but going DI was not just a bluff to get the rest of the NCC to tag along. I had no problem with UND's administration lobbying against the NCC going DI, just as I had no problem with NDSU's very low key efforts to convince the NCC to move up. What I had a problem with is UND's campaign to stop NDSU from going DI through appeals to the media and their legislative power base. UND's president should run UND and quit obsessing about NDSU. The NCC meeting was the proper place for UND to take a stand because that's where they are directly affected - everything else was uncalled for.

NDSU shouldn't go DI. NDSU shouldn't add this program. NDSU shouldn't add that program. Fargo shouldn't have a medical residency program. NDSU can only add this degree if they are held up a year so that UND can add the exact same program at the same time even though they have no students for it while NDSU had around twenty waiting. And so on.

Take the education degree. A duplication, yeah, but both Fargo and Grand Forks might have an Applebees (God knows who eats that crap) but if both do good business, there's no harm done. Besides, Kupchella is worried about the impact on a program that only graduates three or four people a year? Last I heard, 80 people were interested in NDSU's program. If NDSU adds a program, does that mean UND is only going to graduate two people a year? Or take an MBA, a three-hour roundtrip is not going to work for your average MBA candidate. UND's answer was that they'd put a program in Fargo. Point is, they haven't done so yet even though this unmet demand has not just appeared overnight. Oh yeah, and don't forget that UND just got done putting an end to a successful, 25-year program in Fargo for reasons only clear to their adminstration. It just seems that it makes more sense to have NDSU run an MBA program in Fargo. NDSU already has classrooms, a library, computer centers, and professors right smack dab in the center of the largest private sector in the state.

This kind of stuff is just so short-sighted. I thought UND and NDSU were supposed to be cooperating on some sort of research corridor. All I hear is lip service to this idea from Kupchella while he has done nothing but worry about DI athletics or NDSU's plans for the future. Having both UND and NDSU be classified as Carnegie research extensive universities would seem like a natural goal for two schools embarking on such a scheme, but he even opposes this.

Now, Scottm, I didn't realize that NDSU as making an "amusing, and pathetic" attempt at establishing an downtown campus... could you expand on this idea? Shouldn't it be "amusing, sad, pathetic, and sad?" I have no idea how NDSU can "burnish itself in Chapman's image" either. All I know about a "downtown campus" is that NDSU is finally moving out of the quonset huts into a donated building. What is pathetic and amusing about that? And btw, hopefully you are not often amused by the pathetic because that would make you one sick puppy.

There is an historic opportunity for NDSU and UND to work together on something. I almost wrote, "Let's not waste it," but that kind of sentence makes me want to puke. How about, "Let's not be jackasses and blow it?"

[PCM]

Last I heard, 80 people were interested in NDSU's program.

I also heard that the Big Sky Conference was turning cartwheels over the prospect of NDSU going D1.

[The Sicatoka]

The very frugal ND Legislature passes a law stating that donated buildings (in this case one specifically for athletics) must be self-sufficient so as to not drain general state funds from academics (to support athletics) at the institution.

The very frugal ND Legislature introduces (but does not pass) a law stating that state funds should not be used for Division I athletics so as to not drain general state funds from academics (to support athletics) at the institution.

Why is one case regarded as obviously ill being afoot (by one party against another) and the other case not?

Both seem to me like a frugal Legislature at work.

[bisonguy]

The very frugal ND Legislature introduces (but does not pass) a law stating that state funds should not be used for Division I athletics so as to not drain general state funds from academics (to support athletics) at the institution.

That would have been 100% fair IF it had stated that ALL Divison I athletics in the state cannot use state funds.

[tony]

I also heard that the Big Sky Conference was turning cartwheels over the prospect of NDSU going D1.

You didn't hear that from me, Chapman, or Taylor. I've always said that I'll believe NDSU is getting into the Big Sky when I see it. It just doesn't make sense for the Big Sky to make a decision until they find out if Idaho and other schools are going to be forced to DI-AA.

Oh wait, was that just a red herring? I mean, you wouldn't do that, would you PCM? If you are suggesting that Chapman is dishonest in his public statements about the support for the program, then you might as well know that if you had looked into the public record, you'd know that you are mistaken. I'd like to think you were just trying to be clever.

Bisonguy, I'd go further. It would have been fair if it had simply said "athletics" rather than "DI athletics other than UND's existing programs." Does Minot State's NAIA athletic program deserve public subsidy more than NDSU's DI programs? Which has the potential for the best cost-benefit ratio? It also didn't make sense to tell the students how they can or cannot spend their student fees. And it was so poorly worded that almost any of NDSU's expenses for anything could have been challenged under this law.

[The Sicatoka]

tony:

As you pointed out factoids about legislation sponsorship earlier, I'll point out a factoid about legislation: Most of it has "grandfather clauses" in it covering pre-existing cases.

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Let's be honest here...which college is more known throughout the country, UND or NDSU?

I've known about UND since I was a little kid. Why? Because of the D1 hockey team. I had never heard of NDSU until I visited here as a junior in high school, and saw an article in the Dakota Student about the UND-NDSU football game. Why would the ND Legislature not want funds to go to the number 1 recognizable team in the state (Sioux D1 Hockey)? It sounds bias...but it's true. If it had not been for Sioux hockey I would never have even considered coming to UND.