Chewey

Absolutely yes it should stay.

Succinct and very good. What's his email address? I think I'll send him one too.

I suspect that the only thing PCers "donate" to UND is a lot of hot air on this issue. We all knew that this was coming. It's a finanacial loss for MN because so many UNDers live in MN. MN sucks anyway at football and UND would enhance its competitiveness more by playing Southern Florida or the like. I suspect once the UMN alumni respond the committee, so-called, will have a "change of policy." Once the PCers are faced with strong and steadfast opposition, they reveal themselves as the cowards that they are. The various liberal administrative star chambers such as the one at UMN must be opposed at every turn.

The Jews have been the most persecuted group in history and look how well they have done and continue to do. What's different between Jews and other minorities? Certainly other miniorities should have the capacity to do well despite previous harsh treatment. I suspect that religious/cultural cohesiveness and the ability not to fixate on previous wrongs are two big reasons why they've been so strong. They certainly don't forget the past wrongs but they have been able to set them aside and focus on moving forward.

I would not think it would be beyond them. They could always use some stand in from SCSU (Jan Brady State) or the UM that would not be recognized as "one of them." It might be paranoid, but I don't think it's beyond their "the ends justify the means" mentality.

How about the protest-minded malcontents having one of their own do it? They are certainly not above doing that. Remember Graham Kracker?

I think those arguments could be used in support of any nickname and in opposition to the crack pots that oppose nicknames. I would say sue them anyway. If a judge throws it out on those grounds, so be it but one must hold those idiots accountable in some fashion. Make them put their money where their mouths are. Make them hire attorneys out of their own money and let's see where their "convictions" remain when their pocketbooks are put to the test.

The real issues are as set forth above and there are and have been many leaders and ordinary people willing to address reservation issues. The fact is that tribal leaders don't want "whitey" coming to their reservations telling them what they should or might want to do to address the problems. So, they want the help and then they reject it or think that by doing what is suggested they may be giving up autonomy, what little is left, to "whitey." Reservation politics are a collective bitch. Every two years one "leader" and all of the cronies get swept out of office only to be re-elected two years later. If one is not "in" with that particular group of cronies, one is screwed. This makes getting anything done on the res impossible. Tribal politics are 10 times worse than state or federal politics. That "lack of this" or "lack of that" argument is very tired. Dissension on the reservations and the chaos of tribal politics are two of the biggest perpetrators of the status quo.

Nice bit of racism "hoarked" in your post, friend. I suppose if we teach the children to be PC enabling, guilt laden bed-wetters, that might make things better. Give me a break. I worked on one of the reservations helping to re-codify the tribal code and, yes, I'm white. My dad teaches on one and, yes, he's white too. There is barely a hint of tribal leadership when it comes to issues that matter such as those posted above. Much of the problems stem from economic lethargy on the reservations. These problems stem from businesses not wanting to open on the reservations because of the lack of laws pertaining to contracts and secured transactions. The lack of laws pertaining to such things stems from a tribe's desire to not give up any tribal sovereignty. There is no version of the Uniform Commercial Code on many reservations. There is nothing really that pertains to granting parties rights through contract laws on many reservations. The tribes are so afraid of losing any tribal sovereignty that they do not do anything to draw new businesses to the reservations. Add to this the provincial and racist overtones on most reservations, and you have a real witch's brew that serves to prevent any economic growth at all. The PC nut jobs are so creatively lethargic and so intellectually stunted because they pre-occupy themselves with nonsensical issues like nicknames and logos that they could not even begin to think outside of their own collective racist box to address such issues.

Agree. If UM and UW refuse to play us, so be it. To the fan base, they will be the ones looking foolish. I suggest that we refuse to play Iowa because the the pink locker room that they put the vistiing team in. That should be offensive and hostile to homosexual groups and probably women shouldn't it?

Do you really think UM would schedule UND in football? They need to schedule teams they can win against. Macalester (a sausage squad in D3), Augsburg, Aurora.....Maybe the UM could beat those teams. I don't think any kind of D1 street cred or status could be gained for UND by playing those losers anyway. Talk about a year after year embarassment.

I speak French: "I give up" .... "I surrender" I disagree with the assessment that change is coming. One does not spend thousands on a lawsuit only to change one or two years later. The name doesn't "hurt" anyone.

I agree. I like the new President. The old one was just an insufferable malcontent.

Agreed. Don't give the nuts any ammunition to work with. The best way to piss them off is to ignore them and not even look at them.

We should not be giving up any of them. The NC00 should get nothing from its "policy" dictates at all. Giving anything just gives the same malcontents more reason to crawl out of the walls again later.

I bet the NC00 correspondence, memos, etc will do much to show how arbitrary and capricious the NC00 has been vis-a-vis UND. I bet that such things will show exactly what professors, groups, etc have been pushing the NC00. Granted the nut jobs of the NC00 executive committee did not need much pushing but the memos still will not paint a pretty picture. The big question is whether the Fraud will have the independence and backbone to print the anti-NC00 documents. In my opinion, UND should commence slander/libel lawsuits against all professors and groups who took part in this and helped cause the NC00 besmirch UND with its "hostile and abusive" language. As so many have pointed out and as the number of programs and indian students at UND would indicate, the accusation is completely false. Given the thousands spent on the lawsuit, to date, there certainly are damages. There are probably other damages too numerous to mention here. I can think of a one or two law school professors and some other professors and administrators who would make excellent defendants.

Asinine. Simply asinine. I agree with you.

So, what the hell does this mean in real terms? Perhaps the availability of all docs would improve "settlement" chances because the NC00 would be exposed. I don't see how doing what the Judge did improves "settlement" chances. What do you think is really going on behind closed doors? Personally, I think that the NC00 is being told that when this goes to trial some embarassing stuff will pop up. Maybe the NC00 is searching for a way to "honorably" exit the process, save some face and lick its wounds. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic?

In other words, if UND had a different nickname and logo, these types of incidents would never occur. It's as if people actually believe that nothing like this ever happens at NDSU, SDSU and USD because they have animal nicknames for their teams. If those universities are such nirvanas of racial harmony, why does UND have so many more American Indian students than they do? Agreed. As far as SCSU is concerned, consider the neo-nazis or skin heads or whatever group it is that was taking swipes at Jews on campus. What a hero the former President there was!!!!! My father-in-law teaches there and he thought it was great when the new President indicated, in response to a question thrown from a UND nickname opponent, that there were much more important things to address. I don't know what the new President said but I know the "opponents" were "insulted" and "offended." I was at the SCSU/UW-Whitewater game last night and there were a couple of guys dressed as indians in the stands with headdresses and the whole 9 yards. Oh, and three drunk girls were in the stands with halter tops on and they were having boys take pictures of their asses and showing off their thongs. Pretty abusive and offensive and hostile

Regardless, I don't see how that fits into the "hostile and abusive" element. If the Judge believes that granting the request will "encourage" settlement, he'll likely do it. If he believes that denying it will "encourage" settlement, he do that. He's already decided it. I don't see how any recent "evidence" is going to change the focus from whether the NC00 followed its own contract to whether UND was "hostile and abusive" vis-a-vis the nickname/logo. Scott M or PCM probably have a better take on it but that's my 2 cents even though you didn't ask to be assaulted with my 2 cents.

This garbage has even seeped down to the high school level. Devils Lake teams had the best mascot in the state with the "Satans" but certain religious zealots got the better of that fight a few years ago and now Devils Lake teams are known as the fear-inspiring and very realistic "Firebirds." I guess the religious idiots in favor of the change actually thought that "Go Satans," along with the other usual cheers, were forms of edification/worship of Satan himself. I played for a school in the old North Star Conference and we played DL every year in everything. DL didn't always have the best teams but they always had the best mascot and the prettiest cheerleaders. How asinine right? I guess some PC zealots made overtures to representatives of Dickinson High School (the Midgets) and Bismarck High School (the Demons). I guess they almost got run out of town on a rail. Being from Northwestern ND, I know that people out there are the last ones who would want to be lectured about that crap. Dickinson already had that fight when it changed the name of its college team from the Savages to the mighty "BlueHawks" and the people in the city were not going to hear of any more "issues" like that. Let's make Miles and Co. spend 3 months out in Dickinson, Minot or Williston ND and do their preaching. They would be picking the tar and feathers off of themselves for months.

Very well said. Maybe it's the NC00's reputation and image that is getting tarnished? It is to the publilc for sure. And UND's image? If one does not do as the PC jack boots want, one's image is going to be tained with the same group of PC Jackboots? That's a bit like saying the Nazis are going to be mad at you if you don't wear your special patch. I understand your points but I disagree with them entirely.

I agree in principle. However, the programs have not worked in the last 50 years and the problems on the reservations have only gotten worse. The victim mentality is still pervasive. Perhaps the dollars could be better spent elsewhere (Hmm, where have I heard that before?)?

I would not be too quick to conclude that it is a given that the nickname will be retired in the future. If true, what would be the point of fighting for it now? I think that the nickname will be retained for the foreseeable future.