ArchyAlum11

The tough part for UND is that even if you accept that they needed both namesake tribes in the state to approve, Standing Rock is only partly in North Dakota, the bulk of the reservation is in South Dakota. So would they only need the North Dakota Section to approve? The NCAA really needed to just make a rule that either Native nicknames were okay or not okay. Of course if they had done that then Utah, Illinois and Florida State would have sued the crap out of them.

Or when UND administration quite trying to force the new branding, and just does what the U of M, Wisconsin, Michigan and countless other universities have done, a monogram logo, the interlocking ND will likely still be the primary logo after a few years. I think people have a bit of skewed perspective on how important logos and nicknames in modern college sports because of how popular the Fighting Sioux Nickname was and still is, most other universities don't have the same love affair with their logo and nickname. Bucky isn't on Wisconsin hockey Jersey, Billzard the Husky isn't on Saint Cloud State's uniforms, Goldy the goofer isn't adorning the U's football football helmets. Maybe that's just the stylistic trend in college sports right now but it seems like its been this way for a long time. So the name may stay but that doesn't mean that it will always be the primary branding the university uses. Right now they are trying really hard to try and make people love a bland brand name, again it will be impossible to say until the new logo is released to the public, but does anyone really think they are going to do anything creative with it?

I'm not so sure - I had figured it would come down to Roughriders vs Fighting Hawks, I just didn't think people would be so hung up on the fact that Red River High School has the same nickname. I though their was a lot more potential with Roughriders but realistically I thought Nokota's or Raiders would have been a lot better choices (Assuming that the no nickname option was off the table).

How about "your generic and politically correct University of North Dakota Fighting Hawks" it would be an accurate statement on the new nickname "choice".

Sorry but that is a Haida pattern drawing, and we can't have anything that could be seen as offensive to Native Americans.

So what you're saying is that you must support the new nickname in order to be a UND fan, So if I buy license Sioux merchandise that is still on the market or just buy University of North Dakota non nickname merchandise then I'm not supporting UND? If you have a good brand people will buy it. That is the reasons teams will re-brand themselves, to make themselves appealing to the the consumer. Fighting Sioux had and, still has, a lot of appeal. The University of North Dakota has a lot of appeal as a Brand. The Fighting Hawks has a lot more hurdles to climb to prove itself, to be fair its tough to say how much appeal the brand will have till the logo is in place. Maybe they will create a great logo that will win people over or at least get them to admit that its not too bad. However, this process has been more interested in creating something safe that couldn't offend anyone rather than on creating a creative and unique logo and nickname that could at least carry on the spirit of the Fighting Sioux. So yeah, I'm not overly hopeful about the graphic artist rescuing Fighting Hawks. Unless they can come up with a good logo that converts people and gets them to buy the logo, my guess is that the name and logo will be used minimally after 5-10 years. The Inter-locking ND will probably end up being the primary logo. Also if you follow your own logic then maybe you should consider a new nickname, I doubt anyone has taken "Hawkfan" so you wouldn't even need the number on the end.

If Nokota's were rejected as a nickname simply for sounding and being spelled similar to a native tribe then I highly doubt the PC gestapo would let any logo with any native american design elements, such as feathers. Nokota is the state's official horse breed, found only in the badlands of North Dakota.

Why? If a name, logo, and brand as popular as the Fighting Sioux can be retired then what makes the "Fighting Hawks" impervious to replacement. Yes the amount of pressure coming from the NCAA, the State board of Higher Ed, the Big sky and other forces was immense, but it would have to be to force such a popular and beloved brand to be retired. It was simple cost/bennifit, the sanctions from the NCAA and the big sky were not worth the befit of keeping the fighting Sioux. The fighting hawks will not in all likely hood ever be as popular as the Fighting Sioux was, even when you take into account the that time may diminish the old nickname to some extent, the generic and unimaginative nature of the Fighting Hawks doesn't lend itself to longevity or inspiration. I see two possibilities, an organic campaign among students and alumni to change the name from fighting hawks to a particular new name (in other-words this movement would already have a new name in mind, not another round of voting and suggestions), similar to how the Fighting Sioux replaced the Flickertails. The second option is that future branding will tend to ignore the nickname, like so many other universities UND will use its monogram logo - the interlocking ND- instead of the mascot/ nickname logo. This is not to say that whatever graphic designer they hire (and probably pay way too much money) won't be able to come up with a logo that can save this bland, unimaginative and uninspiring nickname. But based on how the university handled the nickname selection process my hopes for a good logo are about as good as my hopes for peace in the middle east.

At this point We can hope that the Fighting Hawks become the metaphorical Pope Benedict XVI to this whole nickname issue... Not following? Let me explain. Pope John Paul II was one of the more beloved pope's in modern history, when he died the next pope Benedict has some big shoes to fill and in many respects never did. He became the first pope to retire, he was then replaced the more successful and Popular Francis. Basically in this analogy John-Paul is the Fighting Sioux, Benedict is the Fighting Hawks, and a yet be determined nickname could become Francis. Apologizes to any Catholics if you were offended, that was not my intent.

Your forgetting that vote took place after the threat of crippling sanctions from the NCAA, secondly your basically arguing that "It doesn't matter that its sucks just get on board with it and oh yea please go out and buy a bunch of fighting hawks stuff". Yea no I spent a lot of money on my Fighting Sioux gear including hockey jerseys, it think I will continue to wear them, if people don't get weird looks wearing North Stars or Fighting Saints gear at Wild games then I think I will be fine when/if the fighting hawks name takes off. Second of all I never stated that dropping the name from official use wasn't the best move, it was really the only choice given the alternatives. I and most people who dislike the new nickname branding are not under the delusion that Fighting Sioux will be coming back as the school's official nickname. What i have said is the Fighting Hawks right now is a new re-branding choice, weather or not that branding choice is successful is anyone's guess. However its not a guaranteed that it will stay, the fact that Fighting Sioux was successful brand and had to be changed if proof that.

My general criticism of college basketball, which to be fair I have never been a huge fan of to begin with, is that there are to many teams all in the same level of competition, Football has a similar problem but is helped by the fact there are two sub divisions and that could end up becoming three sub division in the near future. Perhaps its time basketball took a similar step?

Right now the new nickname is a branding choice,its not established. As I have said they may figure out a logo that is fantastic, but the fact that out 1000 submitted suggestions the final choices they came up with were North Stars, Sundogs, Nodaks, Roughriders and Fighting Hawks doesn't show me that they were think about a good brand name options and thus it doesn't give me a lot of hope that they will do well with the logo. Furthermore expressing disagreement with a choice that I don't like or think will be successful is not tantamount to not supporting the athletic teams. I still pay to get the games on Live stream and pay to purchase the apparel i do like, most of which is the Non-nickname stuff because like everyone else i stocked up before the logo was retired. However if I choose to not buy Fighting Hawks merchandise or continue to wear my Fighting Sioux gear that is my choice, and IF there is ever a push to change the nickname again whether or not I support, descent or remain indifferent to that will be based on my own judgment.

Right now the new nickname is a branding choice,its not established. As I have said they may figure out a logo that is fantastic, but the fact that out 1000 submitted suggestions the final choices they came up with were North Stars, Sundogs, Nodaks, Roughriders and Fighting Hawks doesn't show me that they were think about a good brand name options and thus it doesn't give me a lot of hope that they will do well with the logo. Furthermore expressing disagreement with a choice that I don't like or think will be successful is not tantamount to not supporting the athletic teams. I still pay to get the games on Live stream and pay to purchase the apparel i do like, most of which is the Non-nickname stuff because like everyone else i stocked up before the logo was retired. However if I choose to not buy Fighting Hawks merchandise or continue to wear my Fighting Sioux gear that is my choice, and IF there is ever a push to change the nickname again whether or not I support, descent or remain indifferent to that will be based on my own judgment.

True, but these make more sense in an outdoor stadium where you don't have a roof to hang a video screen from, assuming that you have enough clearance to do so and not interfere with play. Personally I would love to see them move football back to campus but I am well aware that it would be a major expense.

Saying "with the exception of hockey" at UND is like talking about Duke sports and saying with the exception of basketball or with the exception of football at Ole Miss. Yes football won't have as many people wearing Fighting Sioux stuff but as I stated in previous posts other sports don't really tend to use the nickname or logo anyways. My UND football jersey just says North Dakota in very small lettering. As for basket ball, personally I have always found basketball to be boring but here as well you didn't see the logo being used a lot. While I am probably more of a anti new nickname person I think you are over estimating how much people embracing the new nickname, the reality is that most people a mostly indifferent about it. As for the Fighting Sioux Gear eventually it will become less and less common, but that will take a long time, the name was in place for over 80 years that won't go away overnight. Whether or not the Fighting hawks (Nickname and logo) will succeed as a branding choice is going to depend a lot on how good the new logo is. If we want to assume that it is permanent all we need to do is look at UND's original name, Flicker tails, which was changed simply because the students didn't like it, while the odds of that happening are not good in the near future who know what will happen 10 or 15 years down the line. The branding as the Fighting Hawks is not an assured success we'll just have to wait and see, maybe it will manage to take the mantle or maybe it will be a marketing dud.

This is actually a pretty weird argument, in theory you can have a good and poplar FCS football program and D1 hockey, the two do have some overlap in their season but not a ton. I think a better question is why is UND football not as popular as hockey and why doesn't NDSU have D1 hockey program (and yes I realize funding is an issue). Here are some of my Personal opinions on why UND Football isn't as big and why NDSU doesn't have D1 hockey. UND Football - Reasons its not as popular 1. Still fairly new the the FCS Division One. 2. Off Campus location, more Utilitarian stadium. 3. Team hasn't been winning until recently. 4. Unfamiliar opponets. Good moves to increase popularity 1. If they can keep capitalizing on the success of this season, UND had a great season and Should have been in the post season. Its hard to expect fans to keep coming out to support a losing team, good recruiting and smart training in the off season will help ensure the fans will be coming back in the fall for more football. 2. Remodel or replace the Alerus Center - its difficult to be realistic for what to expect when UND has the best arena in college hockey and arguably one of the best arenas period. However the Alerus center is a bit to much of a utilitarian building and dosen't have t amazing sight-lines, additionally seating capacity is a bit on the smaller side for football, if renovations could be made to add more concession options, seating and possible a jumbotron as well as cosmetic upgrades to the actually stadium and concourse. Personally I would prefer is they moved football back to campus and built a stadium with higher capacity where memorial stadium is currently, Bringing it back to campus would help to increase student attendence and would provide a better pregame atmosphere, with univeristy park ,the parking lot across from swanson hall and the fraternities being in walking distance, plus the homecoming parade could lead down university ave. 3. Lets look at moving to MVFC, I am aware that Big Sky is seen as a more prestigious league by some, but as last years National Championship and this years championship should show, the MVFC is definitely a power in FCS. This year Big sky and MVFC both sent the same number of teams to the Playoffs, additionally MVFC has the traditional rival schools SDU, SDSU and NDSU. Currently a move by just UND would be difficult because it would put MVFC at an odd number of teams. However their has been a some rumblings the Minnesota State University (Formerly Minnesota State Mankato) may be looking to take the plunge into division one fcs, in many ways the school is in a position that is reminiscent of UND's just before it made the jump to D1, with two major exceptions/dampers, one is that Mankato's football stadium would need to be replaced as its too small, has outdated press facilities and needs other upgrades. The second major hurdle to overcome is the Maroon and Gold evil empire, the U of M has hushed but long history of lobbying for laws, funding and regulations the disadvantage the State universities, its likely any attempt to take Mankato or Saint Cloud into D1 would be meet significant lobbying challenges from the U's small army of lobbyists. Hockey? Why not NDSU 1. the old party line "Fargo isn't a hockey town". 2. Hockey is an expensive sport to start. 3. The mens club program is not an AZ state. 4. Minnesota State University Moorhead How to get hockey to NDSU. 1. Show me the money - NDSU would need a significant gift to to add hockey to the list of sports, though NDSU does have a major advantage over schools like arizona state, Scheels Arena while not an ideal long term home for Bison hockey would be more than up to the task of hosting NDSU mens ,and possibly womens, hockey until a new arena could be built. 2. I knew a lot of people from High school who went to NDSU, all of them have great things to say about NDSU and Fargo as a whole. The Wild are quite popular and to some extent so are the jets, HS hockey is big in both fargo and moorhead. But when you ask some people about NDSU and hockey many seem to repeat the party line about fargo not being a hockey town. I think in part this comes out of what was bitter feud about NDSU moving up to D1 and UND staying D2 (for awhile at least), however the Fargo-Moorhead area is most definitely an area that loves hockey, if you want proof simply go to a Fargo force game and see how many people are willing to go watch player who are between the HS and College level. 3.In recent years Moorhead State tried to raise the funds needed to start a D1 hockey program, while they came close unfortunately it wasn't quite enough however interest still exists in starting the a D1 program and another effort to raise the needed funds is likely to happen in the coming years. So the is would one school gaining a program effect the other schools opportunity to get a program? I think that it would be harder for Moorhead to start a program if NDSU were to start one before it could, but it would not be as hard for NDSU to start a program if Moorhead already had D1 hockey. Though In my opinion the Fargo Moorhead area is large enough to support two hockey teams, moorhead alone has a population of about 40,000 people, Mankato is the same size and is able to support a d1 hockey team. The Fargo-Moorhead area is around a 250,000 people, more than enough to support two D-1 hockey programs. 4. Support the club - the best thing NDSU hockey hopefuls can do rightnow is support their club team and help raise its profile. If NDSU can attract the better club level players and become more competitive it will hopefully be able to do what ASU is doing now, and what UNLV is hoping to do soon.

If you not on the coasts then they don't care.

True, but your assuming that I want to buy the new gear, again it remains to be seen if UND can come up with a logo to save what is an otherwise bland nickname. If they can come up with a great logo that manages to win me over then sure I will buy the new stuff. Otherwise I will look for the old Fighting Sioux stuff or buy gear that doesn't use the new nickname or logo. I don't plan on spending money on something I don't like, if I want to support UND will just make a donation to the school or to my old department and forgo the official gear that I "hypothetically" don't like.

Why when its not hard to get old Fighting Sioux stuff or "off brand" Fighting Sioux stuff. http://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-sioux-hockey-jersey.html

True, but that was an already established brand, the fighting hawks is a completely new brand concept one that has come out of a very device process. I think trying to compare the Ben Brien Logo change to the establishment an entirely new branding "Fighting Hawks" is different. People have no idea what to expect in terms of a logo from this new concept, with the fighting Sioux their was an already established brand history and previous logos and some of them were not terribly popular, I have heard the the geometric Sioux logo wasn't very popular, and the Sammy the Sioux logo was very disliked. The point is that with fighting Sioux people had some idea of what to expect, with fighting hawks people have no idea what to expect, maybe they will manage to create an amazing logo that manages to be unique and appealing to even the most die hard anti new nickname fan, but personally I am not holding my breath, and I doubt I am alone in that opinion.

They haven't cared about fan input or any kind of unique branding strategy thus far so I doubt the will going forward. I think that a military aircraft theme would work well if they did it right, but it would take some creativity and little risk. The administration wants something boring that couldn't possibly offend anyone, think if the deluded intellectual crowd at UND saw a military aircraft logo that in there eyes "glorified war", they'd be out protesting the logo and we'd be going through this headache again. Additionally any designs that bear too many similarities to the old Fighting Sioux Logo, especially feathers, are likely to draw similar protests and head ache for the university. Time to face the music, we're likely going to have a generic bird logo, and a cartoon bird abomination mascot.Kelley and most of the committee members manipulated this process from the start, they wanted something PC and as unoffensive as possible, and that is what they will get.

They are going to do that no matter what. Also I have no idea how big the NDSU vs UND rivalry is on campus now, but when I was their from 06-11 the rivalry didn't really exist. I had friends who went to NDSU who said it was similar down their, it was a bigger deal for the alumni rather than the current students.

I never said the company name, what I meant was that using an aircraft as the logo for the Fighting Hawks would lead to some more interesting and Unique logo options as opposed to just another bird logo. Admittedly its a bit more of a stretch with the name Fighting Hawks rather than something more directly aviation related but hey you work with what you got, and in this case its the one of the most common mascots in sports with a different adjective in front of it. This is some fan concept art I found for Las Vegas's NHL team, UND could do something similar. the Plane shown is a p-40 warHAWK/tomaHAWK/kittyHAWK which means you could say that the plane is a fighting HAWK.

Other Planes that could work would be the F-117 Night HAWK (The stealth fighter), the P=36 Hawk, and the P-40 Warhawk/Tomahawk/ Kittyhawk/

This would actually be a creative take on a generic name... which is why the University administration will never do it.