[PCM]

From Our Sports Central:

These former Sioux are "Fighting" mad

Quote

The Aeros began camp with three former Fighting Sioux players on the roster, and they all weighed in on the subject.

It's nice to see former players carrying the torch for UND. I'm not sure where Bryan Lundbohm got his information about FSU and the Supreme Court. Maybe he was thinking about the 2000 presidential election.

[dagies]

PCM, on Oct 4 2005, 08:07 PM, said:

From Our Sports Central:

These former Sioux are "Fighting" mad

Quote

The Aeros began camp with three former Fighting Sioux players on the roster, and they all weighed in on the subject.

It's nice to see former players carrying the torch for UND. I'm not sure where Bryan Lundbohm got his information about FSU and the Supreme Court. Maybe he was thinking about the 2000 presidential election.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I talked to a former player who told me it will be very sad if the name should go. Everywhere he played, he ran into people from all over and they all knew of the FIGHTING SIOUX. Even the Canadian kids who came through the MJ ranks were very familiar. It IS the identity of the program.

[Sioux-cia]

PCM, on Oct 4 2005, 08:07 PM, said:

From Our Sports Central:

These former Sioux are "Fighting" mad

Quote

The Aeros began camp with three former Fighting Sioux players on the roster, and they all weighed in on the subject.

It's nice to see former players carrying the torch for UND. I'm not sure where Bryan Lundbohm got his information about FSU and the Supreme Court. Maybe he was thinking about the 2000 presidential election.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NC$$=Supreme Court. Don't both 'high courts of the land' make decisions for the good of the majority by upholding the laws of the Constitution of the United States of American?

[PCM]

dagies, on Oct 4 2005, 08:20 PM, said:

I talked to a former player who told me it will be very sad if the name should go.  Everywhere he played, he ran into people from all over and they all knew of the FIGHTING SIOUX.  Even the Canadian kids who came through the MJ ranks were very familiar.  It IS the identity of the program.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's one side of the issue that never seems to be discussed. The feelings of those offended or hurt by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux name must always be considered, but the feelings of the UND athletes who gave their blood and sweat and risked their health to compete as members of the Fighting Sioux family are simply tossed aside as if they don't matter.

[HockeyMom]

It IS with great pride that the UND athletes wear their uniforms.

[Sioux4Life]

I think this is the right spot to post this. Here is an article in Tuesdays Herald. It is about our Congressman supporting UND and the Sioux Logo. Its short but it nice that they agree with the logo.

Link to Article

[MafiaMan]

One thing I do not like about the pro-nickname argument is the mention of how much it would cost to remove the logos from REA. Big deal. I'm sure it cost a lot of money to enforce integration in the south in the 1960's, too, but no one felt that it was too much money. The pro-name change forces should be eating that cost argument right up. Besides, if there is money for all the marble and granite in the place, I'm sure they could find some cash to remove some logos. It's a bad argument for keeping the logo.

[airmail]

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

Besides, if there is money for all the marble and granite in the place, I'm sure they could find some cash to remove some logos.  <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might respectfully add that the source of the "money for all the marble and granite in the place" is no longer with us. Finding cash to remove the logos will not come easily. I'm sure I won't donate to the cause... anyone else in this forum ready to pony up some $$$?

[redwing77]

airmail, on Oct 5 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

Besides, if there is money for all the marble and granite in the place, I'm sure they could find some cash to remove some logos.  <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might respectfully add that the source of the "money for all the marble and granite in the place" is no longer with us. Finding cash to remove the logos will not come easily. I'm sure I won't donate to the cause... anyone else in this forum ready to pony up some $$$?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. I think that should fall under the charitable donations coming from the Sioux nation. They want the name changed and, if UND decides to do so, the Sioux Nation should show enough good will to pay for the removal of the 2,000+ logos in the Ralph. It's their name being wiped off the building. We wouldn't want to have non Native Americans paying to remove it. It would be too racist.

[MafiaMan]

airmail, on Oct 5 2005, 01:51 PM, said:

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 11:49 AM, said:

Besides, if there is money for all the marble and granite in the place, I'm sure they could find some cash to remove some logos.  <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I might respectfully add that the source of the "money for all the marble and granite in the place" is no longer with us. Finding cash to remove the logos will not come easily. I'm sure I won't donate to the cause... anyone else in this forum ready to pony up some $$$?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't implying that the estate of Ralph Engelstad would be forking up some cash. My point is it's a poor argument:

"We need to change the nickname."

"We can't...it would cost too much money to get rid of the logos."

"Oh. I hadn't thought about that. Nevermind."

[UND92,96]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but even IF UND were to officially drop the Fighting Sioux name and logo, why would the logos have to be removed from either the Ralph or Betty? My understanding is that the Ralph wasn't going to host any more regionals anyway due to the movement to keep those tournaments from on-campus arenas. As for basketball, any regionals could easily be held at the Alerus, if necessary. Unless I'm misreading the NCAA edict, they're saying that the list of supposedly offensive schools can't host an NCAA post-season event so long as they persist in using the name(s), and they can't wear uniforms containing said names/logos. I don't think they can or would require the logos to be removed or covered unless perhaps that particular arena was going to be hosting the post-season event.

The following is a quote from the NCAA press release announcing the denial of UND's appeal:

Quote

"However, the university will be allowed to host the Men’s Division I Ice Hockey Championship, West regional, on March 24-25, 2006 at Ralph Engelstad Arena without altering its current contract. This decision was made because it is not reasonable to cover up or remove all of the Native American imagery in the arena...

Note that it doesn't say that it's not reasonable to cover up or remove the logos by March of 2006. It's unreasonable to cover them up or remove them, period.

[MafiaMan]

I'm not referring to the regional. That contract was set in stone long before the long arm of the NCAA tried to re-do it. Obviously their attorneys concurred. I'm talking about if UND were to change the nickname from Fighting Sioux. What would make more sense, tearing down the REA and building a new Sioux logo-less arena or removing the Sioux logos from the existing arena? That should be obvious.

It would be foolish to think that the name-change crowd would be happy with a new nickname, yet allow REA to keep ties to the past by not removing the existing logos everywhere from the campus, from t-shirts to gym floors to the hockey arena.

[UND92,96]

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

I'm not referring to the regional.  That contract was set in stone long before the long arm of the NCAA tried to re-do it.  Obviously their attorneys concurred.  I'm talking about if UND were to change the nickname from Fighting Sioux.  What would make more sense, tearing down the REA and building a new Sioux logo-less arena or removing the Sioux logos from the existing arena?  That should be obvious.

It would be foolish to think that the name-change crowd would be happy with a new nickname, yet allow REA to keep ties to the past by not removing the existing logos everywhere from the campus, from t-shirts to gym floors to the hockey arena.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully agree that the name-change crowd wouldn't be happy with the logos staying at the Ralph, to the extent any of us are overly concerned about keeping them 100% happy. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe the NCAA is going to require wiping out all evidence of the previous existence of the Fighting Sioux name/logo as a condition of UND hosting NCAA events, particularly when those events would likely not be at the Ralph/Betty, anyway. I don't foresee any significant changes at the Ralph/Betty regardless of what decision is ultimately made by UND.

[MafiaMan]

UND92, on 96,Oct 5 2005, 02:45 PM, said:

I'm just pointing out that I don't believe the NCAA is going to require wiping out all evidence of the previous existence of the Fighting Sioux name/logo as a condition of UND hosting NCAA events, particularly when those events would likely not be at the Ralph/Betty, anyway. I don't foresee any significant changes at the Ralph/Betty regardless of what decision is ultimately made by UND.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't disagree more. The NCAA would want to wipe out any evidence that that nickname and logo ever existed.

[UND92,96]

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 03:06 PM, said:

UND92, on 96,Oct 5 2005, 02:45 PM, said:

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

I'm not referring to the regional.  That contract was set in stone long before the long arm of the NCAA tried to re-do it.  Obviously their attorneys concurred.  I'm talking about if UND were to change the nickname from Fighting Sioux.  What would make more sense, tearing down the REA and building a new Sioux logo-less arena or removing the Sioux logos from the existing arena?  That should be obvious.

It would be foolish to think that the name-change crowd would be happy with a new nickname, yet allow REA to keep ties to the past by not removing the existing logos everywhere from the campus, from t-shirts to gym floors to the hockey arena.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fully agree that the name-change crowd wouldn't be happy with the logos staying at the Ralph, to the extent any of us are overly concerned about keeping them 100% happy. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe the NCAA is going to require wiping out all evidence of the previous existence of the Fighting Sioux name/logo as a condition of UND hosting NCAA events, particularly when those events would likely not be at the Ralph/Betty, anyway. I don't foresee any significant changes at the Ralph/Betty regardless of what decision is ultimately made by UND.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NCAA was trying to insist that UND cover up the logos for this regional. I have no doubt that if a Sioux logo was visible anywhere down the road, the NCAA would never give Grand Forks a regional.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't seen anything that would suggest that. The excerpt from the NCAA release I highlighted in a previous post seems to speak for itself, but I wouldn't put anything past the NCAA. If simply officially changing the name, logo and uniforms would not be enough for the NCAA, then they're actually making it less likely, instead of more likely, that UND would change anything. Given a choice between never hosting NCAA post-season events and attempting to require REA to cover the logos and jeopardizing that UND-REA relationship, I think UND would take option A (no more hosting) in a heartbeat.

[CoteauRinkRat]

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 02:12 PM, said:

I wasn't implying that the estate of Ralph Engelstad would be forking up some cash.  My point is it's a poor argument:

"We need to change the nickname."

"We can't...it would cost too much money to get rid of the logos."

"Oh.  I hadn't thought about that.  Nevermind."   


<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't really heard this as an argument from anyone. It would be interesting to hear an estimate of what it would cost UND in general to change or drop the name. I'm not making the case to keep the name to save money, but it will take a lot of money to do so.

[MafiaMan]

CoteauRinkRat, on Oct 5 2005, 03:18 PM, said:

I haven't really heard this as an argument from anyone. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's posted in a link (Sioux-cia) a few lines above. Check out the comments from Lundbohm and Schneekloth. And that's just two players off the top of my head. I've heard that argument a lot.

[CoteauRinkRat]

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

CoteauRinkRat, on Oct 5 2005, 03:18 PM, said:

I haven't really heard this as an argument from anyone. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's posted in a link (Sioux-cia) a few lines above. Check out the comments from Lundbohm and Schneekloth. And that's just two players off the top of my head. I've heard that argument a lot.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I've already ready it. If people are making that argument, it won't fly.

[MafiaMan]

CoteauRinkRat, on Oct 5 2005, 03:55 PM, said:

MafiaMan, on Oct 5 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

CoteauRinkRat, on Oct 5 2005, 03:18 PM, said:

I haven't really heard this as an argument from anyone. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's posted in a link (Sioux-cia) a few lines above. Check out the comments from Lundbohm and Schneekloth. And that's just two players off the top of my head. I've heard that argument a lot.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I've already ready it. If people are making that argument, it won't fly.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct!

[PCM]

From the Baptist Press News:

2 Baptist schools among 15 that must change Indian mascots

Quote

“We are fully supportive of the NCAA rulings,” Alice Smith, director of media relations at Mississippi College, told Baptist Press. “We are in the process of trying to mount an appeal, but we are in support of the NCAA to operate under the guidelines that they’ve set forth.”

Exactly how much research did the NCAA do before implementing its policy?

Quote

Tribbett said his school is sensitive to both the NCAA’s intentions and to the American Indians, but the very name of Chowan College is Indian. The campus, with about 800 students, is located between the Chowan and Meherrin Rivers in Northeastern North Carolina, and both rivers are named for Indian tribes.

“We’re sensitive to the nature of it, but to comply with the NCAA we’d have to change the name of our school!” he said. “And that’s not their intent.”