Alerus Shows a Profit

[Goon]

Want something to be pissed about?

NDSU's new Barry Hall is $3 million over budget.

That has to be covered by the State of North Dakota.

It'll cost people in GF more per person to cover that than the losses at the Spears concert.

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...20&start=20

$3 million / 600k NDans = ~$5 per.

$97k / 50k GFers = ~$2 per.

Seriously, how did this fly under the radar? Actually it would probably be more since not everyone in ND pays taxes.

My daughter isn't yet anyways.

[UND92,96]

Want something to be pissed about?

NDSU's new Barry Hall is $3 million over budget.

That has to be covered by the State of North Dakota.

It'll cost people in GF more per person to cover that than the losses at the Spears concert.

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...20&start=20

$3 million / 600k NDans = ~$5 per.

$97k / 50k GFers = ~$2 per.

Do you think people will still be complaining about Barry Hall and/or Chapman's house nine years after they're completed? And will they be expected to turn a profit? O.K., I'm going to stop reading this thread before I get myself into trouble.

[The Whistler]

So the Alerus finished cost in 2001 was 80 million. The original vote was for 43 to 49 million. The first cost estimate came in at $65 million. They whittled that down to $57 million for the second vote.

They then threw any restraint to the winds.

Want something to be pissed about?

NDSU's new Barry Hall is $3 million over budget.

That has to be covered by the State of North Dakota.

It'll cost people in GF more per person to cover that than the losses at the Spears concert.

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...20&start=20

$3 million / 600k NDans = ~$5 per.

$97k / 50k GFers = ~$2 per.

[SiouxMeNow]

You might want to compare houses and their values of the two cities. Grand Forks house seem to be more over priced. Just saying.

My wife's aunt built a new house in Fargo a few years ago for about 90,000 and that same house would probably cost a lot more in Grand Forks, ND.

Maybe we are comparing apples to oranges or apples to apples. The fact remains that the Alerus center is a drain on the city no matter how you slice it.

I think the main point is the city is playing loose with our money and Whistler has done a pretty good job breaking down the issues over on Say anything blog.

WoW! Thank god the Ralph didn't lose any money last year? OR DID THEY? Maybe Goon and Whistler should get the Ralphs financial records and proceed to bitch endlessly about them....if they can?

[The Whistler]

WoW! Thank god the Ralph didn't lose any money last year? OR DID THEY? Maybe Goon and Whistler should get the Ralphs financial records and proceed to bitch endlessly about them....if they can?

So how is it our business if the Ralph loses money if it's not publicly financed and at this point owned by a private foundation?

[Goon]

So how is it our business if the Ralph loses money if it's not publicly financed and at this point owned by a private foundation?

details, details.

[SiouxMeNow]

details, details.

yeah...If only we didn't have to pay for that damn $400 million dollar dike system that helped GF sleep through the flood of '09 without even having to plug our drains while Fargo almost went down like us in '97 --- (bet you bitched about that assessment too! ) It took more than a decade to pay off but it did this year! Argue that...

Hey figure out how much the AL deficit is going to cost EACH property tax owner in '09 and I'll pay your share for you buddy? How's that...Just to keep you from complaining! Just do me a favor and wait until the end of the year...the end result might suprise you.

[Local Boy]

The Alerus had two missions; major arena events and multi-day regional conventions. It has failed miserably on both accounts. (Yes, also Sioux football)

The only positive aspect, according to supporters, is how well it does competing with the local hospitality sector.

Supports bolstered "profits" while they were fully aware of nearly $1,000,00 of secret subsidies.

In my opinion, the complex has killed any future development in the hospitality sector outside of Holiday Inn Express type properties without any destination offerings; ie. food and beverage operations.

Supporters and operators refer to citizens as "morons".

Supporters commission economic impact studies that conclude a couple who drives across town for a show, drop $300 outside of the price of their tickets (app. 150/ea).

With debt service, tax juice, and subsidies, The Alerus sucks about $9,000,000 out of the local economy annually.

The Alerus has become an anchor that the City Council has to drag around on their ankles, stifling future development of Grand Forks and hindering them from addressing real current and future needs of the town.

The property continues to decline and the same people are still in charge. I believe the majority of the general public is completely apathetic about the property and could care less.

Time to retool.

It ain't working. I wouldn't state it was, even if I was just an anonymous poster on an internet chat board.

Yes, "It's nice to have in town". The arguement is the cost/benefit.

It simply isn't there...my opinion, of course.

[Goon]

yeah...If only we didn't have to pay for that damn $400 million dollar dike system that helped GF sleep through the flood of '09 without even having to plug our drains while Fargo almost went down like us in '97 --- (bet you bitched about that assessment too! ) It took more than a decade to pay off but it did this year! Argue that...

Hey figure out how much the AL deficit is going to cost EACH property tax owner in '09 and I'll pay your share for you buddy? How's that...Just to keep you from complaining! Just do me a favor and wait until the end of the year...the end result might suprise you.

Yawn! Hey Whistler I think we found our Alerus Cheerleader posing under a different name.

[star2city]

Have yet to hear one creative alternative from any of the Alerus naysayers.

I'd also like to know how the Alerus has failed miserable as a venue for Sioux football.

Please name one initiative any of you would do, other than firing the staff to save money.

[Goon]

Have yet to hear one creative alternative from any of the Alerus naysayers.

I'd also like to know how the Alerus has failed miserable as a venue for Sioux football.

Please name one initiative any of you would do, other than firing the staff to save money.

I would caution them to not be spending as much of the citizen's money trying to land big shows that they know are goingto be a loss.

I agree with Whistler that they don't need that many people working at the Alerus. I would suggest hiring a new administrator.

[Local Boy]

Star2City,

I'll take the challenge. Just give me some time, I'm a busy boy.

There won't be any "creative alternatives". Just sound analysis of the situation and an appropriate alternative.

My sense is you're grading on a curve and allowing 90% for participation. Probably because you're close to the supporters, they're your buddies.

Stay tuned!

Suspense, can you feel it?

[The Whistler]

yeah...If only we didn't have to pay for that damn $400 million dollar dike system that helped GF sleep through the flood of '09 without even having to plug our drains while Fargo almost went down like us in '97 --- (bet you bitched about that assessment too! ) It took more than a decade to pay off but it did this year! Argue that...

You have evidence of that? Or you just can't justify the Alerus by talking about the Alerus?

Hey figure out how much the AL deficit is going to cost EACH property tax owner in '09 and I'll pay your share for you buddy? How's that...Just to keep you from complaining! Just do me a favor and wait until the end of the year...the end result might suprise you.

They were $300,000 behind budget this summer. They lost more on Brit.

Last year things were much worse than they were telling us.

But hey if you and your buddies want to pay for all of the bad management at the Alerus, why should I complain? I think last year revenues were about 4 million and total costs were around 12 million (counting the payment as an expense, but not counting depreciation.)

[Goon]

You have evidence of that? Or you just can't justify the Alerus by talking about the Alerus?

They were $300,000 behind budget this summer. They lost more on Brit.

Last year things were much worse than they were telling us.

But hey if you and your buddies want to pay for all of the bad management at the Alerus, why should I complain? I think last year revenues were about 4 million and total costs were around 12 million (counting the payment as an expense, but not counting depreciation.)

Let the pro Alerus Folks pay our tax bills Whistler.

[tnt]

I will only say that Grand Forks would have far fewer restaurants and retail if it were not for the Alerus. Remember, the Alerus was in the works before the Ralph was a pipedream. Of course it is hard to support two buildings like that in one town, but what do you do now. Maybe the city should tax the heck out of the Ralph. Remember one other thing, the city was subsidizing the Civic Auditorium for about the same amount as the annual shortfalls from the Alerus. Also, I realize that most people here are hockey fans only, but do you honestly believe the UND football team would be able to recruit at the same level without the Alerus? I bet they would have had 3000 people tops last weekend at the game if it were outdoors. You can flame away, but you can't convince me that the Alerus has been bad for Grand Forks all things considered.

[Local Boy]

I indulged Star2City's request and then trashed it. Enlightening individuals who still use terms like "naysayers" and the old civic center arguement is futile and a waste of time. After reading my alternatives for The Alerus, I concluded one thing...

The Alerus is a pretend operation. It pretends to operate in a market that simply does not exist.

By that I mean, supporters believe their same ol' hooey that they used in the campaign stage to get the project approved by voters. Supporters used jacked-up projections from hypothetical complexes in much larger markets. And then, turned around and operate the complex AS IF it were in one of these larger markets. The breaking the cycle of failure for The Alerus lies in patterning the operation to fit with the Grand Forks market. We've all seen what the results are of "pretending" The Alerus operates in a larger market.

So, The Alerus is a pretend operation.

Again, any future success that The Alerus can realize will lie in patterning the operation for the market in which it is located, not the other way around.

Just my two bits.

(pssssttt, The Alerus secret subsidy reality blew the old civic center arguement out of the water. That and the fact that arena loses from $100,000 to $300,000 PER SHOW and not PER YEAR)

[The Whistler]

I will only say that Grand Forks would have far fewer restaurants and retail if it were not for the Alerus. Remember, the Alerus was in the works before the Ralph was a pipedream. Of course it is hard to support two buildings like that in one town, but what do you do now. Maybe the city should tax the heck out of the Ralph. Remember one other thing, the city was subsidizing the Civic Auditorium for about the same amount as the annual shortfalls from the Alerus. Also, I realize that most people here are hockey fans only, but do you honestly believe the UND football team would be able to recruit at the same level without the Alerus? I bet they would have had 3000 people tops last weekend at the game if it were outdoors. You can flame away, but you can't convince me that the Alerus has been bad for Grand Forks all things considered.

And how many restaurants did we have before the Alerus opened up? I fail to think that a building that sits mostly empty 300 days a year and only draws from the local trade area is really affecting the restaurant business.

I think it's interesting that you act as if the Ralph should be taxed to punish them. Aside from holding a concert or two what do they do that could be conceived as negative to the Alerus? Since the Alerus invariably loses money on those things it makes you wonder if they aren't doing a favor.

Another thing about the Ralph is that it was announced in plenty of time to cancel the Alerus.

The civic auditorium argument is facetious because 1) That's all the place cost us. The Alerus cost us $8,000,000 last year. and 2) the City never did save the money on the civic auditorium. Rather than put it up for sale, they held on to it and we're still paying.

I would perhaps agree with the football thing, but I also must note that the Alerus wasn't sold as a football stadium. Maybe if it had there would be less controversy over the thing today. What I find interesting is that apparently some want to build a new football stadium (which I don't agree with, the Alerus is a good venue for fooseball.)

You can flame away

I think reasonable people can disagree without "flaming."

For example the place is built now. That's fine, but it does NOT excuse bad management and continuing throwing more money into the place because of that mismanagement.

[GeauxSioux]

Because I don't live in GF and haven't in quite some time, I'm kind of an outisder looking in. I have a couple of questions for those against the Alerus.

If the facility is losing money doing concerts and it seems that the concert market is not what it once was, wouldn't it be wise for the Alerus to not do concerts and concentrate on doing conventions and large scale meetings?

I seem to recall reading that the ND Democrat convention hadn't been to GF in 20-30 years and came only because of the Alerus/Canad complex. Couldn't the Alerus be more profitable if they looked to the convention/conference crowd with a nice mix of athletics?

Let the Ralph and Frtiz handle the concerts.

[The Whistler]

Because I don't live in GF and haven't in quite some time, I'm kind of an outisder looking in. I have a couple of questions for those against the Alerus.

If the facility is losing money doing concerts and it seems that the concert market is not what it once was, wouldn't it be wise for the Alerus to not do concerts and concentrate on doing conventions and large scale meetings?

I seem to recall reading that the ND Democrat convention hadn't been to GF in 20-30 years and came only because of the Alerus/Canad complex. Couldn't the Alerus be more profitable if they looked to the convention/conference crowd with a nice mix of athletics?

Let the Ralph and Frtiz handle the concerts.

Those are good points, but how much did it cost the public FOR the Democrat convention.

That information has never been released, but instead washed in with the $720,000 event loss from last year. (They said that Neil Diamond lost $250,000 which makes you wonder.)

[Local Boy]

The solution to retool The Alerus lies in these areas....

Scrap the in-house catering on the convention side and approve about 5 "Authorized Preferred Catering Partners".

On the arena side, use the concert fund to subsidize Regional promoters. Provide incentives to the entities to bring more dates. 5 dates a year equal one level of subsidy, 10 dates equals more. A sell-out equals no subsidy. Remember, The Alerus is scaleable. Stop swinging for the fences on the major A List tours, it ain't workin'. Think Tom Petty, Willie Nelson, and Cheryl Crow level acts.

The Alerus in-house promoters need to focus on reoccuring acts that continue to develop, produce more material, and inspire their fans to come see them. Think TSO, now go find 10 more. Think WWE, Motor Sport Events, and Christian Rock. The artists don't continue to develop and draw? No problem, dump them. You've got rising star artists that you're nuturing relationships with for future dates.

In the are of major concert attractions, this is where Alerus Financial can really step up and earn the goodwill they originally set out to gain.

ALERUS FINANCIAL PRESENTS.... They subsidize, they get the goodwill after successful dates. Also in the area of major concert events, AEG and LiveNation can bring dates when The Fargo Dome and MTS Centre are booked. These are rentals, not subsidized. The subsidized dates are proven failures. Yeah, The Alerus and Grand Forks market gets second cut, that's how reality works.

Now, what have we accomplished?

Three objectives

[star2city]

The solution to retool The Alerus lies in these areas....

Scrap the in-house catering on the convention side and approve about 5 "Authorized Preferred Catering Partners".

On the arena side, use the concert fund to subsidize Regional promoters. Provide incentives to the entities to bring more dates. 5 dates a year equal one level of subsidy, 10 dates equals more. A sell-out equals no subsidy. Remember, The Alerus is scaleable. Stop swinging for the fences on the major A List tours, it ain't workin'. Think Tom Petty, Willie Nelson, and Cheryl Crow level acts.

The Alerus in-house promoters need to focus on reoccuring acts that continue to develop, produce more material, and inspire their fans to come see them. Think TSO, now go find 10 more. Think WWE, Motor Sport Events, and Christian Rock. The artists don't continue to develop and draw? No problem, dump them. You've got rising star artists that you're nuturing relationships with for future dates.

In the are of major concert attractions, this is where Alerus Financial can really step up and earn the goodwill they originally set out to gain.

ALERUS FINANCIAL PRESENTS.... They subsidize, they get the goodwill after successful dates. Also in the area of major concert events, AEG and LiveNation can bring dates when The Fargo Dome and MTS Centre are booked. These are rentals, not subsidized. The subsidized dates are proven failures. Yeah, The Alerus and Grand Forks market gets second cut, that's how reality works.

Now, what have we accomplished?

Three objectives

[The Whistler]

That's a very workable list, addresses community and business needs, and makes economic sense. By taking the high road and presenting a positive vision, city leaders might (and should) listen.

Contrary to what you may believe, I don't live in GF, am not connected to any GF officials, and don't recall saying you or Whistler were morons. What you've posted above proves you aren't! My major issue has always been about negativity: presenting a positive alternative solution like you just did is extremely helpful to the community. Negativity without presenting options or solutions is not.

For the record it was the Executive Director of the Alerus and the Secretary of the Alerus Center that called Alerus critics morons.

So far I haven't heard there's any move to get them out of there.

So in addition to the Alerus losing money, [the main] Alerus supporters misleading the the public to get it built (IMO), Alerus not being forthcoming with the results of events, AND now the arrogance and contempt by Alerus leadership to critics is the place really worth it as it's presently being run?

[Local Boy]

Aha! Civility...love it.

Now if VenueWorks and Alerus Commission members can learn to play nice, we can work towards a cumbaya moment.

For those not in the loop, the parties mentioned above have moved beyond calling concerned citizens "naysayers" and currently prefer "morons".

These are the same individuals who, with The Grand Forks Herald's assistance, tease "profits" when they are fully aware of secret subsidies totaling approx. one million dollars.

I agree with all, this topic is getting old. Criticizing Alerus supporters is the equivalence of punching babies and they just dig in their heels deeper and because the public becomes increasingly apathetic of their practices, they take larger risks with public funds, mumbling words like Cher, Britney, and so on. It's a sad situation. Grand Forks deserves better.

Drive by every banquet player that serviced the Grand Forks market pre-Alerus, they're gone. They may still be "there" but, they're gone.

Thanks guys.

Star, I knew you'd like my suggestions.

[Local Boy]

Take a look at these numbers regarding The Alerus...

$508,000 reported loss ytd.

$97,000 Britney Spears loss not included in the 508K.

$225,000 transferred by the city council not included in the 508K.

$500,000 approx. amount of sales tax subsidy received annually by the Alerus.

If the year ended tomorrow, The Alerus would post an operating loss in excess of $1.3 million.

I believe the debt service is somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-8M a year.

It's very difficult to get accurate accounting from The Alerus and The Herald.

I would appreciate it if anyone has any further information that refutes my above figures.

Thanks

[Hawkster]

What I can't figure out is why Fargo can always make money on their dome, but GF loses on Alerus. They using creative accounting or just better managers?