2007 Badlands Bowl

[bigsky]

Montana leads the series 10-3 but is back on ND turf this year. With two players from Montana signing with UND this year, seems that ND is accepting the fact that Montana has a good level of football as well. How do you see this year's annual gridiron matchup coming out?

[MplsBison]

It's not a fair match up.

Montana had 51,249 enrolled in grades 9-12 in 2000.

North Dakota had 32,969.

If you divide those by 8 to get a rough approximation for the number of male high school seniors, you're talking 6400 to 4100.

I'd expect Montana to win every game.

The fact that ND has won 3 of 13 shows extraordinary football talent per capita in the state. Just not much capita.

[nodakvindy]

I have to admit I never understood how this matchup came about. A North Dakota-South Dakota game would seem to make a lot more sense. And for Montana, Idaho seems the more likely rival.

[BigGame]

I have to admit I never understood how this matchup came about. A North Dakota-South Dakota game would seem to make a lot more sense. And for Montana, Idaho seems the more likely rival.

I can't remember the details but I think it's a bragging rights game that started when 2 brothers, one living in ND and the other in Montana both thought there respective state played better high school football. I should remember the names of the brothers because I met them when I played in the game, but its been awhile. These brothers wanted to find out which state played better football so they went to work organizing the game.

[WYOBISONMAN]

South Dakota plays thier all star game with Wyoming.......

[MplsBison]

What has that series been like?

I would expect Wyoming to have a few guys capable of playing in Laramie, but having the lowest population in the union probably hurts.

ND v. SD would be better, but SD actually has a fair amount more high school aged population than ND. They were at 41k in 2000.

[UND92,96]

I have to admit I never understood how this matchup came about. A North Dakota-South Dakota game would seem to make a lot more sense. And for Montana, Idaho seems the more likely rival.

I agree that unless somebody is living in the extreme western part of ND (Dickinson, Williston, etc.), this doesn't seem like a natural rivalry, at least when compared to ND vs. SD. Unfortunately, now that the train has left the station, I suspect it would be very difficult to switch to a game with SD.

[MplsBison]

How about canceling that game and just sticking to the shrine games?

[UND92,96]

How about canceling that game and just sticking to the shrine games?

I can only assume that the players and coaches like having an interstate game, even if it's not necessarily against the state most North Dakotans would prefer it to be against.

[dakotadan]

Or schedule a ND/SD game and a Montana/Wyoming game the weekend after the ND/Montana game. Set it up so that each state gets a home game every year. The first year ND plays in Montana and turns around and hosts SD the next weekend.

First weekend

ND in Montana

Wyoming in SD

Next weekend

SD in ND

Montana in Wyoming

And then reverse them the next year. That way each state gets a home game every year.

[star2city]

I have to admit I never understood how this matchup came about. A North Dakota-South Dakota game would seem to make a lot more sense. And for Montana, Idaho seems the more likely rival.

People in eastern North Dakota really underestimate the rivalry between western North Dakota and eastern Montana. Because of transportation links and migration patterns, much of Montana's population has North Dakota roots, especially in Eastern Montana. (Hence, the North Dakota jokes being so predominant in Montana). The Highline stretch of northern Montana was historically (and still is) oriented to Minneapolis (and North Dakota) more so than Seattle. Billings and Bismarck effectively are service center rivals for a huge swathe of territory between them. On a smaller scale, Dickinson vs Miles City and Glendive, and Williston vs Sidney, Glendive, Glasgow, and even Havre are rivals.

A North Dakota vs Montana college rivalry would stir up some passion in those areas.

The only cities between North and South Dakota that are really historical commerical rivals are Jamestown and Aberdeen. Those cities would have to get behind a North / South rivalry, because no other city in either state would care.

Having lived in Idaho, the only area of Idaho that really sees Montana as a interesting rival for a HS game is the Idaho panhandle. Eastern Idaho cares about Utah, Southwest Idaho about Oregon.

[MplsBison]

Note: there is no spin related to pigeonholing UND to the Big Sky in star2's post.

[star2city]

Note: there is no spin related to pigeonholing UND to the Big Sky in star2's post.

And no spin related to your previous post pigeonholing UND to the MidCon because of our "strong" South Dakota ties.

[MplsBison]

I've not said that ND should be pairing with SD for high school all star games.

What are you talking about?

UND might end up in the Mid Con. I don't know.

I just know they won't be going to the Big Sky.

[Riverman]

I just know they won't be going to the Big Sky.

Spoken like a real UND /Fighting Sioux hater.

Or when you say "I Just Know" you really mean. IYHO...

[WYOBISONMAN]

People in eastern North Dakota really underestimate the rivalry between western North Dakota and eastern Montana. Because of transportation links and migration patterns, much of Montana's population has North Dakota roots, especially in Eastern Montana. (Hence, the North Dakota jokes being so predominant in Montana). The Highline stretch of northern Montana was historically (and still is) oriented to Minneapolis (and North Dakota) more so than Seattle. Billings and Bismarck effectively are service center rivals for a huge swathe of territory between them. On a smaller scale, Dickinson vs Miles City and Glendive, and Williston vs Sidney, Glendive, Glasgow, and even Havre are rivals.

A North Dakota vs Montana college rivalry would stir up some passion in those areas.

The only cities between North and South Dakota that are really historical commerical rivals are Jamestown and Aberdeen. Those cities would have to get behind a North / South rivalry, because no other city in either state would care.

Having lived in Idaho, the only area of Idaho that really sees Montana as a interesting rival for a HS game is the Idaho panhandle. Eastern Idaho cares about Utah, Southwest Idaho about Oregon.

Despite what the folks in Missoula think, that is a very accurate statement.......I know because I am from Williston.

[BigGame]

How about canceling that game and just sticking to the shrine games?

This game is far better than the shrine game in terms of players and the quality of the teams. This would be like comparing the senior bowl and hula bowl at the collegiate level. Do they still have the Down Under Bowl?

[MplsBison]

Well, sure, how about the ND all stars vs. the Florida all stars?

Then you'd definitely see the caliber of players up higher than the shrine game.

[SportsDoc]

I think what gets lost in any change of opponent arguement is that it takes time, effort, committment and money to pull any of these types of games off. The brothers in Miles City and Dickinson have done that and are entrenched as the game between their respective states. They have a history now, and that helps, too. They also have a charity to help with manpower and logistics (Knights of Columbus, I believe). It would be difficult to drop the current game, unless one state wants out. I had heard Montana considered pulling out a few years ago because they had won several years in a row by large margins and felt the competitive balance was just not there. It has been better recently.

Their may have been some East-West ND bias playing out here for a while, too. It seemed ND was not getting many top notch AAA Eastern players, while Montana was getting all their best players. Now, it seems ND is getting most of their best players. The game has been more competetive recently, as I remember.

As to some combo set of games, that would also be hard to pull off. Most of these kids also play in the Shrine game in their respective state, and there have been instances where some player's college coach has not allowed the player to risk the chance of injury playing another summer game. That, even though most players redshirt anyway their first year.

It's seems best to leave the game as is and just convince our best players to play in the game, as Montana seems to be able to do.

[bigsky]

How about canceling that game and just sticking to the shrine games?

AA is the only class in MT that does not have their OWN All-Star game (seperate from the Shrine game), so it is a good thing for those players to have an opportunity to play in another All-Star game.

[BigGame]

Well, sure, how about the ND all stars vs. the Florida all stars?

Then you'd definitely see the caliber of players up higher than the shrine game.

As a player, it was a lot more fun playing in the Badlands Bowl.

Not to mention the ND players on the badlands bowl teams can come from anywhere so the team is actually a lot better than a shrine game team. I speaking based upon the ND team, not the opposing team.

[MplsBison]

I understand that fine.

My problem is that the state we're lined up against has 900k population to our 600k.

[BigGame]

Their may have been some East-West ND bias playing out here for a while, too. It seemed ND was not getting many top notch AAA Eastern players, while Montana was getting all their best players. Now, it seems ND is getting most of their best players. The game has been more competetive recently, as I remember.

You might be correct, but I think the coaches that are selected to coach the game pick the players they want so a west coach will likely go with more player from the west and the same goes for an eastern coach. The year I played we were able to win the game and even though we had some big name players from the east the western kids were overall better players that year. I am not saying that is typical, but one season the majority of the best players will come from the west and the next year it might be the east. The year before I played in the game the ND team got destroyed and the only player that was able to accomplish much for ND in that game was Greg Caro.

[BigGame]

I understand that fine.

My problem is that the state we're lined up against has 900k population to our 600k.

I understand that it's not even footing for both teams, but I still like the game and actually wish it was promoted better.