NHL Fight

[Yttrium]

Boy, this thread sure is heating up.

First of all, the thread is NHL Fight. Fighting is legal in the NHL. Why, because it eliminates the crap. It eliminates you going after our franchise player. It means maybe we need to settle something that started in the Western Hockey League, NCAA or even minor hockey.

I don't know how old the gentlemen is who's brawling w/ my boys TheTriouxper and PCM. Let me remind everyone on the fighting front.

Fighting was as big a part of the game of hockey then scoring back in the 70's. What's even more hilarious is both were very privalent back then. Fans came out to see the best take on the best inside the realm of the hockey game and the back alley cats going toe to toe. Now, the Board of Governors have finally realized the kids these days are extremely talented and highly skilled athletes. That's why now the obstruction and other calls are penalties whereas a couple years ago a simple good defensive play.

The video shown on this thread is a solid fight. Two men, the player who was drilled, actually started the fight. The Wild player simply finished it. Nothing more then that. Will it fuel another crack between these two, probably, but it is taken care of right there and right now.

I've played this great game for over 35 years. Still play, but coach more then anything else and watch my sons play the game at a high level. I'm not a REA typical fan. I have more at stake then that. But what I will say is hockey has survived everything from line and bench clearing brawls, cheap shots like Dave Forbes on MN great Henry Boucha and the Pertuzzi incident.

Yet, it has and will forever survive. The beauty of the college game is to see the immense skill these kids have. Yet, they still can't take the stripes off a tiger. If you played the game long enough I'm sure you were challenged. Hopefully you accepted the challenge. Win or lose.

It's about claiming stake to what you believe in.

Also, don't compare football to hockey. Football takes breaks after a :05 to :10 second play. Hockey is continious action. Football you are allowed to rest :35 after every play. Hockey, you skate until you can't feel your legs anymore. Comparasion? When you do sit-ups as fast as you can and you have that burning sensation in your abdomen, that's the same feeling you have after a long shift.

Baseball. Please. Those guys are throwing wild haymakers that very rarely ever hit.

My father told me something as a young kid. He said, "Son, don't criticize thy neighbor until you've walked a mile in his moccasins."

Simply put. You don't know the slightest about this issue. Nor should you be popping off when you have no idea what it takes to be a hockey player.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

The THETRIOUXPER is all bark and no bite

[PCM]

Oh, so now it's all about the SIZE of the dog?

Yes. It's just like hockey. The biggest dog gets to dictate the unwritten rules.

[dagies]

Unwritten laws are those by which the Shepard led crew call the game. Someone should write them down so they can say they are calling the games by the rules.

Wait. I thought they just made that shxt up as they go?

[THETRIOUXPER]

The THETRIOUXPER is all bark and no bite

You have to be more specific. Are we talking about a "fair fight". If we are I have to admit I don't know what that is. Will you still love me when it's over? According to unwritten laws, you have to.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

Love no,respect maybe. All's fair in love and war

[THETRIOUXPER]

Love no,respect maybe. All's fair in love and war

Don't forget about the consequence's of the unwritten rules, as you are nothing more than a "cookie cutter Ralph Englestad Arena fan", and a mere mortal one at that.

[siouxrunner]

Wow...I can't believe this has gone 10 pages.

The debate seems to have gone from "is fighting in the nhl important (or necessary) for the game" to "do you have to have played the game at a high level to understand what is going on."

I'd like to go back to the initial topic, "Is fighting a necessary (or integral) part of the NHL game"

You have to remember one thing above all else, the NHL is a business. Their main goal above all else is to make money. Someone showed a poll earlier that 80-some% of fans in some poll liked fighting in hockey. Well, fans pay for tickets and merchandise and watch games (read: see ads) on TV. If the fans seem to like something, the NHL will abide because they want to make money. I'm sure the league could create rules to limit fighting much to the level we see it at the NC$$ level, but they don't.

PCM obviously thinks that the NHL would do quite well to eliminate fighting from the game and show a product similar to the NC$$ game. He feels that fighting takes away from the integrity of the game enough that he doesn't watch NHL games on a regular basis. In PCM's case, the NHL is losing his business because they allow fighting to be a part of the game. However, PCM must be with the minority here, because if there were more people that were turned away from the NHL by fighting than those who want it as part of the game, the NHL would adapt and change the rules.

Dikaia880, in my opinion, is being treated unfairly here. He/she supports fighting as a necessary part of the game. Fine, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. (Now to the second part of the debate...) He/she also feels that unless one has played organized (read: not just down at University Park or in a "beer league") hockey, you don't really know what is going on with some of the finer points of the game, simply because you haven't been able to experience them firsthand. I tend to agree. I don't, however, think this means that Jane Q. Hockeyfan can't have an opinion on the game. I just think that her opinion will be based on a different set of experiences. If those experiences don't consist of firsthand knowledge of the situation (be it fighting, or whatever) I would probably give her opinion less weight than someone who does have firsthand knowledge.

I know plenty of very knowledgeable fans who have never played hockey, as well as many who have played. In most cases though, I would probably tend to listen to someone who has watched AND played hockey than someone who has only watched hockey when arguing about rules or rule changes.

But like I said before, in the end it is all about the $$$. As long as the NHL thinks fighting helps them make $$$ it will be a part of the game.

[siouxrunner]

Wait. I thought they just made that shxt up as they go?

No, that's Adam and crew

[Dikaia880]

I don't know how old the gentlemen is who's brawling w/ my boys TheTriouxper and PCM.

I assume you're reffering to me, I'm 27.

Excellent post Yttrium...

Well, let me see if I understand this correctly. Here are some of your theories. A "fair fight" in which you insist there is some kind of code of conduct that is not understood by the average hockey fan, two combatants can erase previous wrong-doings (whether it is his own, or someone else's). This is done by squaring off and playing by some sort of unwritten law's, that again, the average fan does not know about. At this point all you have to do is knock the other guy to the ice, and in the intrest of (this is a stretch now) "SPORTSMANSHIP" you are declared the victor. At which point you cease beating the s&!t out of the other guy. Now in this same said code of conduct all those who have played the game of hockey will immediatley accept the outcome of the "fair fight". Then, and only then, all "dues" have been paid, all scores have been settled and everyone is back to square one (insert kisses and hugs here). Meanwhile the average hockey fan will have absolutley no idea that anything even transpired as they sit in their seat, drool on themselves, and cheer for things that you and only you dictate they should (because you have played the game and understand all of the unwritten rules that the average person does not). This is all because they have never played the game of hockey so they don't have a clue. So now you have been sent by a higher power to show all the rest of us the error of our ways. Hopefully to enlighten us to these unwritten laws which we are not aware of because we have never played the game

Obviously you seem to not understand the how fighting in hockey generally works (I say generally because it is an imperfect world.) A clean fight does not imply a lack of sportsmanship, its two men involved in something that is as old as the sport itself. If you do not like it, maybe cricket or polo will suit your ideals better. There are no hug and kisses in hockey, but things are square after a good fight.

Meanwhile the average hockey fan will have absolutley no idea that anything even transpired as they sit in their seat, drool on themselves, and cheer for things that you and only you dictate they should (because you have played the game and understand all of the unwritten rules that the average person does not).

I do not dictate anything alone, the history of the sport and the people that have played it have dictated it in aggregate. There is a number of hockey fans who have no clue as to what is happening on the ice in general, and I tend to find those are the fans who think fighting has nothing to do with the game.

I don't, however, think this means that Jane Q. Hockeyfan can't have an opinion on the game. I just think that her opinion will be based on a different set of experiences. If those experiences don't consist of firsthand knowledge of the situation (be it fighting, or whatever) I would probably give her opinion less weight than someone who does have firsthand knowledge.

No where have I said that an average fan shouldn't have an opinion on the game. What I do not like is when someone who has never played the game decries that fighting as a un-sportsmanlike act that belongs no where in the game.

University park, beer league, intramurals, NCAA, NHL...they all have their unwritten rules. I do not expect someone who hasn't played the game to know them, but I would expect they'd have a slight idea that they existed, I do not understand how you cannot fathom that Triouxper.

[PCM]

Simply put. You don't know the slightest about this issue. Nor should you be popping off when you have no idea what it takes to be a hockey player.

I'd like to think that I at least have some understanding of why hockey players and others closely associated with the game think about the sport the way they do. However, because of their close connection to the game, I'm not sure that they can be very objective about it, especially when it comes to viewing the sport from an outsider's perspective. My reason for getting involved in this thread was to help people understand how the outside world views fighting in hockey.

I understand the theory behind fighting and what it's supposed to accomplish. I remain unconvinced that it actually achieves that objective. I believe that equal enforcement of the rules, combined with severe punishment for players who demsonstrate a pattern of jeopardizing the safety of others, is the best way to protect the health and safety of all, not just those high-paid few assigned enforcers to protect them from legal and illegal hits.

So I will shut up now and let the experts duke it out. I've had my say.

[THETRIOUXPER]

I don't think PCM thinks fighting should be eliminated. I think he has tried to point out (to the point of exhaustion I might add), that there is no signifigant evidence that a fight will in fact be an absolute end to a cheap shot or retaliation for a good clean hit or whatever situation that warrants the fight. And that folks has nothing to do with whether or not you have played the game of hockey.

[Dikaia880]

However, because of their close connection to the game, I'm not sure that they can be very objective about it, especially when it comes to viewing the sport from an outsider's perspective.

The way the game is played is up to the players, coaches, and leagues. It is their sport, if fans enjoy it so be it. But outsider's should not be allowed to tell the insiders how to play the game. If that makes sense.

that there is no signifigant evidence that a fight will in fact be an absolute end to a cheap shot or retaliation for a good clean hit or whatever situation that warrants the fight. And that folks has nothing to do with whether or not you have played the game of hockey

Except for the fact that people that have played the game, have fought the fights, and taken the cheap shots have seen first hand, in game, how fighting limits cheap shots. THAT is why it has everything to do with whether you've played or not.

[siouxrunner]

University park, beer league, intramurals, NCAA, NHL...they all have their unwritten rules. I do not expect someone who hasn't played the game to know them, but I would expect they'd have a slight idea that they existed, I do not understand how you cannot fathom that Triouxper.

Good point, I guess I overlooked this. Every league at every level has a few unique unwritten rules. Don't lift the puck at the park, buy beer after the game if it's your turn, etc.

Dikaia - It is sort of confusing when you quote multiple people in the same post without saying where you pulled the quote from. In your last post you pulled a few lines out of my quote and attributed them to TRIOUXPER. It'd be easier to follow if you'd leave the name in on the quotes.

[THETRIOUXPER]

I assume you're reffering to me, I'm 27.

Excellent post Yttrium...

Obviously you seem to not understand the how fighting in hockey generally works (I say generally because it is an imperfect world.) A clean fight does not imply a lack of sportsmanship, its two men involved in something that is as old as the sport itself. If you do not like it, maybe cricket or polo will suit your ideals better. There are no hug and kisses in hockey, but things are square after a good fight.

I do not dictate anything alone, the history of the sport and the people that have played it have dictated it in aggregate. There is a number of hockey fans who have no clue as to what is happening on the ice in general, and I tend to find those are the fans who think fighting has nothing to do with the game.

Look, dickzero, I have never said I don't like a hockey fight. I have never said abolish it. I know full well the "in's and out's" of a hockey fight. What I take exception to is you popping up here like a turd stinking the place up, and making generalization's about what you consider to be the "average" hockey fan. You want people to accept your point of view, and then take exception to it when they don't. Quit making broad statement's about the fan base and people will quit calling you out to defend yourself. The other thing that is alarming to me is that you claim to be a coach. I can only imagine what someone like you is instilling in some of the young mind's that you have crossed path's with.

[Siouxdonyms]

PCM obviously thinks that the NHL would do quite well to eliminate fighting from the game and show a product similar to the NC$$ game. He feels that fighting takes away from the integrity of the game enough that he doesn't watch NHL games on a regular basis. In PCM's case, the NHL is losing his business because they allow fighting to be a part of the game.

PCM could be right, we don't know, and never will unless the NHL takes a trial period to totally eliminate fighting from the game. I stated earlier that 87% of fans continue to want fighting. No where in those numbers did it say that the entire 87% would quit watching the game if fighting was taken out. Some of those people may choose to quit watching, but I think the majority of the fans in that percentage would continue to watch the game. With the elimination of fighting completely, the variety of audiences for games may grow. Unless the NHL is willing to give it a try, we'll never know. It could result in more revenue for teams, or it could result in less, which would most likely lead to bringing it back. I don't watch hockey solely for the fights, but don't mind seeing one every now and then. That's my opinion though. If they eliminated it from every level, it wouldn't keep me from watching the best sport ever.

Part of the joy of message board is to discuss differences. No one agrees with everyone else 100% of the time. However, this thread seems to have gone the route of the low road, where personal insults start to appear, which is sad to see.

[siouxrunner]

If they eliminated it from every level, it wouldn't keep me from watching the best sport ever.

Agreed

[Dikaia880]

Look, dickzero, I have never said I don't like a hockey fight. I have never said abolish it. I know full well the "in's and out's" of a hockey fight. What I take exception to is you popping up here like a turd stinking the place up, and making generalization's about what you consider to be the "average" hockey fan. You want people to accept your point of view, and then take exception to it when they don't. Quit making broad statement's about the fan base and people will quit calling you out to defend yourself.The other thing that is alarming to me is that you claim to be a coach. I can only imagine what someone like you is instilling in some of the young mind's that you have crossed path's with

Dickzero? VERY intelligent.

Why do you take exception to my thoughts on the 'average' hockey fan? If you're know so much about the game why would it bother you?

You sure don't act like you know the in's and out's of a hockey fight, if you do why have you questioned them the whole time?

So, If you like fights, and you have never said abolish it, what have you been disagreeing with over the last 8 pages?

The other thing that is alarming to me is that you claim to be a coach. I can only imagine what someone like you is instilling in some of the young mind's that you have crossed path's with

You know nothing about how I coached, what I coached, or even what level I coached. Now who's make the broad generalizations?

Dikaia - It is sort of confusing when you quote multiple people in the same post without saying where you pulled the quote from. In your last post you pulled a few lines out of my quote and attributed them to TRIOUXPER. It'd be easier to follow if you'd leave the name in on the quotes.

Sorry, I thought they went along automatically.

[THETRIOUXPER]

The way the game is played is up to the players, coaches, and leagues. It is their sport, if fans enjoy it so be it. But outsider's should not be allowed to tell the insiders how to play the game. If that makes sense.

Except for the fact that people that have played the game, have fought the fights, and taken the cheap shots have seen first hand, in game, how fighting limits cheap shots. THAT is why it has everything to do with whether you've played or not.

Please provide for us the statistical evidence that supports your claim's. #1 being that fighting reduces cheap shot's. #2 that you have to play the game in order to know that. Siouxrunner, with all due respect, the argument of comparing unwritten rules such as no lifting in a pickup hockey game, or buy me a beer for whatever, is really apple's to orange's when you compare it to NCAA or NHL hockey.

[THETRIOUXPER]

Dickzero? VERY intelligent.

Why do you take exception to my thoughts on the 'average' hockey fan? If you're know so much about the game why would it bother you?

You sure don't act like you know the in's and out's of a hockey fight, if you do why have you questioned them the whole time?

So, If you like fights, and you have never said abolish it, what have you been disagreeing with over the last 8 pages?

You know nothing about how I coached, what I coached, or even what level I coached. Now who's make the broad generalizations?

Sorry, I thought they went along automatically.

Why do you take exception to anything I have said. Let me see I'll be like you, just agree with me and all the world's problem's are solved. Get a goddamn clue, please.

[Dikaia880]

You know full well that you can't attach statistics to that, and asking for them is obsurd.

Sioux runner's comments regarding lifting the puck, buying beer, etc. is a great comparison.

Why do you take exception to anything I have said. Let me see I'll be like you, just agree with me and all the world's problem's are solved. Get a goddamn clue, please.

I've actually only taken exception to one comment you've made, which is in regards to me as a coach and what I must have put in the minds of the youth.

When I coached I tried as hard as I could to instill sportsmanship and ethics into the kids that played for me. I'll take exception to anyone claiming otherwise, everytime.

You took exception to a generalization.

As far as me getting a God Damned clue, I could say the same for you but that would get us right back to where your pointing out my spelling error got us, the middle of no where.

[THETRIOUXPER]

You know full well that you can't attach statistics to that, and asking for them is obsurd.

Sioux runner's comments regarding lifting the puck, buying beer, etc. is a great comparison.

C'mon dickzero super hockey intellect of the universe, you must have something better to do than argue with a mere average fan like myself. Like maybe meeting slappy and bucky at a rest area or something?

[Dikaia880]

C'mon dickzero super hockey intellect of the universe, you must have something better to do than argue with a mere average fan like myself. Like maybe meeting slappy and bucky at a rest area or something?

As with spelling corrections, you know you're winning your argument when all the other guy has is attempts at personal insults.

You're right T-bone, I do have better things to do, so I'm going to leave the office and go home now. I hope you don't miss me too much...

[THETRIOUXPER]

As with spelling corrections, you know you're winning your argument when all the other guy has is attempts at personal insults.

You're right T-bone, I do have better things to do, so I'm going to leave the office and go home now. I hope you don't miss me too much...

Sometimes it's all certain people understand. (personal insults that is) Do yourself and everyone else a big favor, get over yourself.

[dagies]

No, that's Adam and crew

And he's led by Shep.