NHL Fight

[THETRIOUXPER]

Actually, I lumped YOU into that category. I'd assume most people around here are knowledgable fans who enjoy the game and understand what is going on. But if you can go to a game at Engelstad and not realize that 50% of that crowd has no clue what's going on with the game, or how they have ruined the atmosphere of UND hockey, I feel sorry for you.

I hated sitting at the Canadian World Junior games because it made me realize what that arena really could be like. Loud, rowdy, a real hockey atmosphere like the old Englestad. So sorry, I have a chip on my shoulder because of how money talks more than the people that matter at that arena.

I never said anyone was 'stupid or unable to understand the game' if they have never played, I did not intend that. What I did, and still do, intend to say is that if you have never played the game I do not expect you to understand the unwritten rules of the game as they work on the ice. Nice attempt to get everyone on your side though.

Actually, T-bone, I do get it. You're pissed because you got on the otherside of the argument and had nothing good to say, so you had to resort to grammar correction, and personal insults. I understand perfectly.

I wouldn't call it venom, Triouxper, more like weaksauce... Infantile I can completely agree with however.

I only have one response to this mess. I don't sit and worry about what other people are doing at a hockey game, or any other event for that matter. I won't let that ruin it for me. If you are worried what other's are doing maybe you should seek some proffesional help. And by the way, check your post's. You did say people that have never played the game wouldn't understand, and insulted the entire Sioux hockey fan base as far as I'm concerened. But really man, I am done arguing with you, please don't give me any more reasons to keep being nasty toward's you. Lastly, just stop going to the games if the corporate environment torment's you so bad, you'll end up a fat drunk jerkwad like me.

[sprig]

Now I get it:

drunk and loud=knowledgeable

[MafiaMan]

[PCM]

You are right that the NHL has to try to attract the marginal fanbase, but they also cannot turn their backs on the 87% of current fans. It can be inferred that if 87% of the current fans are in favor of fighting, that it is not something that keeps marginal fans from watching.

I addressed the relevance of the 87 percent factor here. Maybe the NHL is just fine with the number of fans it has now. Maybe it's just fine playing the game that appeals to niche group of sports fans. Maybe it's just fine with not being televised on a major network. Maybe the NHL is just fine with hockey being referred to as a dying sport that few sports fans care about. But I doubt it.

I'd also think that if fighting is going to keep those 'fans' from watching, the hitting and inherent physicality of the game will be as much of a turn off for them.

Sorry, but you're the one who admitted here that the presence of enforcers actually takes physicality out of the game by protecting superstars from legal hits. And as I've explained before, don't confuse my desire to minimize fighting with a desire to make the game less physical. Nothing is further from the truth.

Not to mention look at the UFC, and how popular ultimate fighting has become.

Which, again, goes back to my point about many sports fans equating pro hockey with professional wrestling. Yes, gratuitous violence will always appeal to a certain number of people, but any sport that panders to that crowd will have an image problem and a problem being taken seriously by serious sports fans.

There are many many things that the NHL can and should do to attract more fans, but I have never heard someone say that they don't watch the game because of the fighting.

I hear it all the time, although not in Grand Forks where hockey is practically a way of life. But outside the state, when I tell people that I cover UND hockey for USCHO, the standard response is, "I don't watch hockey. I can't stand the fighting."

Rather than polling current NHL fans on what they think of fighting, it would be a far more useful exercise to poll the general population of sports fans about whether they would watch more hockey and attend more games if the NHL minimized fighting. Would it prove my point? I have no idea. But I do know that pro hockey in its present form has limited popularity among sports fans. Certainly there are other reasons besides fighting, but my hunch is that it's one of the main sticking points.

[PCM]

Now there's a class that I could get into!

[Dikaia880]

I only have one response to this mess. I don't sit and worry about what other people are doing at a hockey game, or any other event for that matter.

Triouxper, its not my worry what other people are doing. My worry is when the money and the 'fans' who are there not because they care about the sport, but because its something to do, ruin it for the real fans. The whole student section deal is still a mess, isn't really their team? The student continue to get a raw deal at Englestad and its absolutley pathetic that money gets in the way of them enjoying 'their' team the way they always have.

It is also just sad to me to see how unbelievably quiet that arena can be during games, when it was built to be loud. I'm sorry you take exception to it, but beyond the way students get treated and the noise level, there is a complete lack of hockey knowledge by a good number of the fans there. They get mad at good calls, and pissed at good no-calls. I have been to many many arenas in the WCHA and by far our arena has the least knowledgeble fans around, sorry, but its true.

PCM Posted Today, 11:45 AM

QUOTE(Dikaia880 @ Nov 2 2006, 10:18 AM)

You are right that the NHL has to try to attract the marginal fanbase, but they also cannot turn their backs on the 87% of current fans. It can be inferred that if 87% of the current fans are in favor of fighting, that it is not something that keeps marginal fans from watching.

I addressed the relevance of the 87 percent factor here. Maybe the NHL is just fine with the number of fans it has now. Maybe it's just fine playing the game that appeals to niche group of sports fans. Maybe it's just fine with not being televised on a major network. Maybe the NHL is just fine with hockey being referred to as a dying sport that few sports fans care about. But I doubt it.

QUOTE

I'd also think that if fighting is going to keep those 'fans' from watching, the hitting and inherent physicality of the game will be as much of a turn off for them.

Sorry, but you're the one who admitted here that the presence of enforcers actually takes physicality out of the game by protecting superstars from legal hits. And as I've explained before, don't confuse my desire to minimize fighting with a desire to make the game less physical. Nothing is further from the truth.

QUOTE

Not to mention look at the UFC, and how popular ultimate fighting has become.

Which, again, goes back to my point about many sports fans equating pro hockey with professional wrestling. Yes, gratuitous violence will always appeal to a certain number of people, but any sport that panders to that crowd will have an image problem and a problem being taken seriously by serious sports fans.

QUOTE

There are many many things that the NHL can and should do to attract more fans, but I have never heard someone say that they don't watch the game because of the fighting.

I hear it all the time, although not in Grand Forks where hockey is practically a way of life. But outside the state, when I tell people that I cover UND hockey for USCHO, the standard response is, "I don't watch hockey. I can't stand the fighting."

Rather than polling current NHL fans on what they think of fighting, it would be a far more useful exercise to poll the general population of sports fans about whether they would watch more hockey and attend more games if the NHL minimized fighting. Would it prove my point? I have no idea. But I do know that pro hockey in its present form has limited popularity among sports fans. Certainly there are other reasons besides fighting, but my hunch is that it's one of the main sticking points.

I understand you analogy for the 87%, but you missed my point. Which is that it can be inferred that if such a large portion of the fanbase likes the fighting, then at the very least there is a good percentage of those outside of the fanbase who would like it as well.

I did say that enforcers limit the amount of cheapshots and HEAVY unecessary clean hits. I did not say they are intended to stop all hits, don't twist my words.

What sort of people say they don't like the fighting when you come across them? Why should the NHL pander to fans that have for so long ignored the game. Why should it sell out for them?

There are many reasons the NHL doesn't do well nationally, but I HIGHLY doubt fighting has anything to do with that. What I was getting at by mentioning the UFC is that if fighting is such an issue why are those fans flocking to the NHL?

[MafiaMan]

Rather than polling current NHL fans on what they think of fighting, it would be a far more useful exercise to poll the general population of sports fans about whether they would watch more hockey and attend more games if the NHL minimized fighting. Would it prove my point? I have no idea. But I do know that pro hockey in its present form has limited popularity among sports fans. Certainly there are other reasons besides fighting, but my hunch is that it's one of the main sticking points.

PCM, I couldn't agree more with you on this. Hockey fans like hockey for various reasons. We've seen the NHL slip from a major sport to one where people couldn't care less about it. Two seasons ago, Calgary drew more fans meeting the losing Flames at the airport than Tampa Bay did in its own victory parade (an estimated 20,000 fans watched the Lightning Stanley Cup parade). That's barely more than watched game 7 in the St Pete Forum!

If the idea is to expand the base of hockey fans, the questions shouldn't be posed to people who are already fans, they should be posed to "potential" fans. I know my current RiverCitySports.com catalog has many pages of hockey clothing and articles geared toward women. Yes, it's true.

One can easily see the marketing campaign trying to do what the NBA and MLB have done for years...marketing individual players. "Come see Sidney Crosby and the Pittsburgh Penguins as they take on Peter Forsberg and the Philadelphia Flyers," etc. Plus you've probably seen players in TV ads minus the hockey helmets so people can actually see their faces. You certainly don't see the NHL marketing "come see the fights."

The TV ratings rival those of Texas Hold 'Em, bowling, and the International Dart Championships. So for those of you who think there is nothing wrong with hockey, go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand. Do I love the game? Yes. But I also want it to SURVIVE and not go the way of the USFL.

[Dikaia880]

From what I understand, without research to back me up at the moment. Weren't attendance records set all over the league last year?

Don't think I'm trying to say that the NHL should be using fighting as a way to draw people in, thats the last thing I want. But to try to cut it way down or penalize it strictly, would be to ignore the real issues with drawing new fans into the sport.

[PCM]

There are many many things that the NHL can and should do to attract more fans, but I have never heard someone say that they don't watch the game because of the fighting.

I certainly can believe that you've never heard it because you are so firmly entrenched in the world of hockey that wants to preserve the status quo. If you live in that world, you won't be exposed to that attitude, but believe me, it does exist.

I understand you analogy for the 87%, but you missed my point. Which is that it can be inferred that if such a large portion of the fanbase likes the fighting, then at the very least there is a good percentage of those outside of the fanbase who would like it as well.

So why is professional hockey dying rather than growing?

I did say that enforcers limit the amount of cheapshots and HEAVY unecessary clean hits. I did not say they are intended to stop all hits, don't twist my words.

I didn't twist your words. The statement you just made confirms that what I said was correct.

What sort of people say they don't like the fighting when you come across them?

The old ladies with blue hair that I hit on in bars.

Why should the NHL pander to fans that have for so long ignored the game. Why should it sell out for them?

It has nothing to do with pandering to or selling out to anyone. It has everything to do with broadening the appeal of the game and keeping the sport alive and healthy.

[Dikaia880]

So why is professional hockey dying rather than growing?

Well, as I said there were numerous attendance records set last year. I don't think its dying at all, its stagnant at worst. If anything the main problem lies in the media coverage of the game, it gets very little attention from local news on up. That's the main problem, beyond that, the lack of general knowledge of the game. People have a hard time watching it on tv when they don't understand it, they can't watch the puck because they're not used to the movement. High Def. will be a big thing for hockey, and the NHL should make a big push for it.

I highly doubt giving the violence loving nature of our country, that a fight every couple of games, is going to keep people from watching the sport. The newer rules have opened up the game and cut down on defensive minded teams playing the boring old trap.

Goalie pads were shrunk, but I think we need to have a little bit bigger net. Do I really like it? Not really, but more offense would bring more people into the game.

There are a lot of things the NHL needs to change. But I highly doubt that people are going to think to themselves. "You know, I heard the NHL got rid of fighting, I should check out a game."

[southpaw]

in the first year after the lockout, the average nhl attendance rose to it's highest level ever. source: NHL Attendance

19 teams reported higher numbers last year than the year prior to the lockout. in a world where sports supposedly struggle after a lockout or player strike, that's amazing numbers. it took baseball 5 years after the strike to get fan level back to what it was the year before the strike. sure seems like professional hockey is dying.

[THETRIOUXPER]

dickey, I'm just wondering, how exactly does a fan who doesn't know anything about the game ruin it for you? Not trying to be confrontational, but just want to understand. I go cause I enjoy the game. Everything else is secondary. You claim to be a fan having played the game with an immense amount of knowledge of the game. I guess what I am wondering is, if you are such a student of the game why do you let it bother you that someone else is not. It just seems silly to me, it makes you look as silly to me as those other fans look to you. I guess Ralphie built the arena for all to enjoy, and I realize the are some goddamn dummies at some of the games. So not everyone knows whats going on all of the time during the game, but maybe some of them will find they actually like the game and want to learn more about it. I guess that is not all bad, is it ?

[THETRIOUXPER]

in the first year after the lockout, the average nhl attendance rose to it's highest level ever. source: NHL Attendance

19 teams reported higher numbers last year than the year prior to the lockout. in a world where sports supposedly struggle after a lockout or player strike, that's amazing numbers. it took baseball 5 years after the strike to get fan level back to what it was the year before the strike. sure seems like professional hockey is dying.

All I want to know is who the hell is buying southpaw and myself beers in the south bar on friday night.

[southpaw]

All I want to know is who the hell is buying southpaw and myself beers in the south bar on friday night.

me too!

(ps, small change of plans. won't be able to get to the bar til the 2nd intermission)

[PCM]

sure seems like professional hockey is dying.

I'm just going by what I hear on sports talk radio and read in the papers. It wouldn't be the first time that the experts didn't know what they were talking about or misrepresented a situation. Hockey's TV ratings are certainly nothing to get excited about, however.

[Sioux Traveler]

Well, as I said there were numerous attendance records set last year. I don't think its dying at all, its stagnant at worst. If anything the main problem lies in the media coverage of the game, it gets very little attention from local news on up. That's the main problem, beyond that, the lack of general knowledge of the game. People have a hard time watching it on tv when they don't understand it, they can't watch the puck because they're not used to the movement. High Def. will be a big thing for hockey, and the NHL should make a big push for it.

I highly doubt giving the violence loving nature of our country, that a fight every couple of games, is going to keep people from watching the sport. The newer rules have opened up the game and cut down on defensive minded teams playing the boring old trap.

Goalie pads were shrunk, but I think we need to have a little bit bigger net. Do I really like it? Not really, but more offense would bring more people into the game.

There are a lot of things the NHL needs to change. But I highly doubt that people are going to think to themselves. "You know, I heard the NHL got rid of fighting, I should check out a game."

Is this what you want DICK ?

http://boards.wild.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7753

Can some one post the goalie pix?

[Dikaia880]

I guess Ralphie built the arena for all to enjoy, and I realize the are some goddamn dummies at some of the games.

Well no, Ralphie built, above all, a shrine to himself and place for his influencial money people to play.

I have nothing against people who don't have a clue about the game going to the game to watch the sport. I have a problem with people going to the game because its the thing to do. Those people who get mad at students standing up all game, those people who complain about chants, and there are plenty of other gripes I have.

People like the guy (mid 40's I'd say) who told me that I was too loud and he couldn't enjoy the atmosphere because of it. The lady who told me and my girlfriend that we were 'too into' the game, and then told the security guard we were too drunk, when all we had was a beer a piece, but since we looked like we were student age we got harrassed for half a period. Its happened other times, and non of those times was I 'too drunk,' swearing, or the like. Every time it has happened it was by some yokel who hadn't a clue there was a game going on.

Stuff like that ruins it for me and it happens all over the place to a lot of people, and its a joke. That sort of thing never happened at the old Englestad. Students were on their feet the whole game, since seats were limited only people who really wanted to see hockey were there, and the real hockey atmosphere was embraced.

I thouroughly enjoy it when I'm sitting next to someone who hasn't a clue about the game, but is trying to understand it. I do what I can to help them understand whats going on, and that's fun for me. But the other stuff is a joke...

[THETRIOUXPER]

Man, it sounds like you really have an axe to grind with the REA. Sorry it sucks that bad for you. I haven't had a bad experience like that so I can't relate.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

Geez if it's that bad don't go. Last time I looked it was a free country. If the Ralph upsets you don't go.

[THETRIOUXPER]

Geez if it's that bad don't go. Last time I looked it was a free country. If the Ralph upsets you don't go.

........and you're still pissed that I sit in your section.

[Dikaia880]

I'm just going by what I hear on sports talk radio and read in the papers. It wouldn't be the first time that the experts didn't know what they were talking about or misrepresented a situation. Hockey's TV ratings are certainly nothing to get excited about, however.

TV ratings have never been all that high for the NHL. Plus there is a perception that the NHL is dying, and I think by looking at the attendance records you can see that just isn't the case.

........and you're still pissed that I sit in your section.

How old are all you guys. season ticket holders? Any students?

I don't go to many games anymore, mainly because I don't live in GF anymore. I know it comes off as pissing and moaning, but they have a chance to have the best arena both facility and crowdwise at REA and for whatever reason they refuse to let it go there.

How many of you went to a good number of games in both arena's? Wasn't it a hell of a lot more fun to watch a game there?

I was at the Mankato game saturday night because I happened to be in the cities. That was a fun place to watch hockey.

In undergrad, we'd always travel to the Duluth series because I'm from there. The DECC is one of the best places to watch hockey, because that crowd knows hockey and everyone is into it big time.

I guess i just see what it could be, and I'm not satisfied with it...

By the way, you guys are still all wrong about the fighting...esp. you triouxper...

[SIOUXELEVENS]

The TRIOUXPER is still wrong. Your right my seats lost 65% of there value when you came in. Oh by the way I'am 8 1/2 going on nine but I am very mature for my age(season ticket holder)

[PCM]

If anything the main problem lies in the media coverage of the game, it gets very little attention from local news on up.

Which might very well relate to hockey's public image problem, its poor TV ratings and lack of exposure on a major network. There's no reason for the media to pay much attention to professional hockey as long as it remains a niche sport.

That's the main problem, beyond that, the lack of general knowledge of the game.

If people have a desire to watch a sport, then they'll learn to understand it. If they have no desire to watch a sport, then they're not going to take the time to understand it. You have to get them to watch before you can expect them to understand.

I highly doubt giving the violence loving nature of our country, that a fight every couple of games, is going to keep people from watching the sport.

If the nation craves violence, why has professional football outlawed certain types of hits and levied fines against players for excessively violent acts on the field? Why has protection for football players steadily improved over the years? Why hasn't the NFL embraced the idea of fighting and enforcers if they're what fans and players really want? How is it possible that the NFL could reduce the level of violence in pro football and remain as popular as ever, far more popular than the NHL could ever hope to be?

Don't tell me that increased violence is what most sports fans really want. The continued success of pro football, also an inherently physical sport, proves that theory wrong.

The newer rules have opened up the game and cut down on defensive minded teams playing the boring old trap.

Which were changes for the good, changes that many NHL purists told me for years would never happen because they'd ruin the game for hardcore fans.

There are a lot of things the NHL needs to change. But I highly doubt that people are going to think to themselves. "You know, I heard the NHL got rid of fighting, I should check out a game."

You're free to doubt it all you want, but you don't know it, and neither do I. However, my anecdotal evidence and 25 years of experience in the PR field tell me that you're most likely wrong.

[PCM]

TV ratings have never been all that high for the NHL. Plus there is a perception that the NHL is dying, and I think by looking at the attendance records you can see that just isn't the case.

I can see that the NHL is just as popular as it's ever been -- which isn't saying a whole hell of a lot.

[THETRIOUXPER]

TV ratings have never been all that high for the NHL. Plus there is a perception that the NHL is dying, and I think by looking at the attendance records you can see that just isn't the case.

How old are all you guys. season ticket holders? Any students?

I don't go to many games anymore, mainly because I don't live in GF anymore. I know it comes off as pissing and moaning, but they have a chance to have the best arena both facility and crowdwise at REA and for whatever reason they refuse to let it go there.

How many of you went to a good number of games in both arena's? Wasn't it a hell of a lot more fun to watch a game there?

I was at the Mankato game saturday night because I happened to be in the cities. That was a fun place to watch hockey.

In undergrad, we'd always travel to the Duluth series because I'm from there. The DECC is one of the best places to watch hockey, because that crowd knows hockey and everyone is into it big time.

I guess i just see what it could be, and I'm not satisfied with it...

By the way, you guys are still all wrong about the fighting...esp. you triouxper...

Why am I wrong about fighting. And why do you keep trying to make me snarl. I like a good fight. I take exception to the fact you think most fans are ignorant. I've met quite a few of the poster's here, not that any of them would actually associate with an asshole like myself, as most of them are real good people. For the most part they all know the game and have been fans for a long time. raynman03, PCM, Siouxman, Sioux-Cia, hockeymom, Siouxfan4life, morely, southpaw, NorthDakotaHockey, 7>4, YaneA, and I know I'm missing a whole bunch more, but they are all quality people.