Find a Division I Conference

[GeauxSioux]

I have read on other board where others feel our success in hockey will work against us. Their point often being that with hockey being king at UND everything else suffers and that conferences wouldn't invite UND because we wouldn't put money or effort into the other programs that would be a part of their conference.

I have a different take on the issue. I think that the exposure that UND hockey receives would enhance the visibility of the conference in which the remainder of UND's sports would be members. I also believe that UND hockey would see an expanded fan base, especially if we were able to get into the Big Sky. I have read that there is quite a significant hockey following in Montana for instance who may end up following UND hockey.

I have family in New Orleans that are huge UNO Privateer fans that have since started following Denver Pioneer hockey, only because they are both in the Sunbelt Conference.

[MplsBison]

Please...please...don't waste your time waiting up for the Big Sky.

Just don't do it.

Dispite anything that the Montana schools or Fullerton may want or say, the western schools will not let eastern expansion happen.

[star2city]

Please...please...don't waste your time waiting up for the Big Sky.

Just don't do it.

Dispite anything that the Montana schools or Fullerton may want or say, the western schools will not let eastern expansion happen.

You disappoint me, MplsBison. Thought you didn't participate in Bisonville's groupthought sessions. Just because NDSU has been rejected twice, doesn't mean anything. UND's DI move has been better strategically timed.

[star2city]

I have read on other board where others feel our success in hockey will work against us. Their point often being that with hockey being king at UND everything else suffers and that conferences wouldn't invite UND because we wouldn't put money or effort into the other programs that would be a part of their conference.

I have a different take on the issue. I think that the exposure that UND hockey receives would enhance the visibility of the conference in which the remainder of UND's sports would be members. I also believe that UND hockey would see an expanded fan base, especially if we were able to get into the Big Sky. I have read that there is quite a significant hockey following in Montana for instance who may end up following UND hockey.

I have family in New Orleans that are huge UNO Privateer fans that have since started following Denver Pioneer hockey, only because they are both in the Sunbelt Conference.

Fully agree: the success of other sports helps and is not a hindrance. Louisville and Cincinnati would not be BSC football schools if it were not for the prominence of their basketball programs.

[NanoBison]

You disappoint me, MplsBison. Thought you didn't participate in Bisonville's groupthought sessions. Just because NDSU has been rejected twice, doesn't mean anything. UND's DI move has been better strategically timed.

We've been rejected 3 times there star2city. Everytime the discussion came up, the indicating factor was "TRAVEL". But, being as UND is nowhere near NDSU in terms of geography that shouldn't make a difference, as you've indicated above. Right?

The west coast schools are not going to let any of the Dakota schools in. It's just too far to travel (in their opinions) and they don't need NDSU/SDSU/UND/USD when they already have Montana and Montana State to bring in the fans. Quit wasting your time on it.

(Strategically timed, uh huh. If by that you mean that it has finally been done to shutup the supporters harping down Kupchella's throat...then yes it's strategically time)

Finally, having Division I Hockey isn't going to help you at all in the search for a conference if the ones you're looking at include Mid-Con or BigSky.

[dakotadan]

Finally, having Division I Hockey isn't going to help you at all in the search for a conference if the ones you're looking at include Mid-Con or BigSky.

I totally agree. Showing that UND has been committed enough to win 7 DI titles over 5 different decades, averaging 11,000 fans, a money making program, having connections to UM and UW along with Mich/Mich St/BC/BU/Maine/etc, and having the Engelstad complex on campus is all going to make getting into the Mid-Con or Big Sky or any other conference that much more difficult. We should really consider dropping hockey to help us in our conference search.

[IowaBison]

I have read on other board where others feel our success in hockey will work against us. Their point often being that with hockey being king at UND everything else suffers and that conferences wouldn't invite UND because we wouldn't put money or effort into the other programs that would be a part of their conference.

I have a different take on the issue. I think that the exposure that UND hockey receives would enhance the visibility of the conference in which the remainder of UND's sports would be members. I also believe that UND hockey would see an expanded fan base, especially if we were able to get into the Big Sky. I have read that there is quite a significant hockey following in Montana for instance who may end up following UND hockey.

I have family in New Orleans that are huge UNO Privateer fans that have since started following Denver Pioneer hockey, only because they are both in the Sunbelt Conference.

Any success (or impression of it) will be of benefit when shopping for a conference. UND hockey is as successful as they come, definite points.

The question is can UND translate it's success in other sports, primarily football and men's basketball, to Division I. And here's where the rub comes in. There are limited, (and according to repeated comments out of UND) nearly tapped-out, funds for Sioux Athletics. There are significant costs associated with the move, let's say $3.5 million. Given UND's athletic department's financial situation, it is not a given that it can fund itself at the higher level. UND hockey fans will give to hockey first and everything else second, if at all.

If UND can get enough momentum to fully fund football to get money and pr games with DIA and a top 25 rating and have an RPI of 250 or less they are sitting really well. Hockey would be gravy.

UND should be fine with football. Even with 40-50 scholies, Lennon should field a quality team.

Then it comes to basketball, that may be the 800 lb. neglected gorilla in the corner. If UND struggles like UNC, with DI wins in a season you can count on one hand, things may not be pretty. (This is if one graciously realizes that UND's best, if not only hope for a conference, is the Mid-Con.)

[bincitysioux]

Hockey isn't going to hurt UND in the transition to DI, or in the search for a conference. The very least it can do is help. This has been discussed alot before. My take on it is sure, hockey is king at UND.......and football is king at NDSU. Does anyone really think that the fact that NDSU sponsors football is going to keep them out of the Mid-Con, a conference that doesn't sponsor football? Nope.

Thanks to hockey, UND already has working relationships with many DI schools like Minnesota, Denver, Maine, New Hampshire, the list goes on and on. Thanks to hockey, UND is already a known and recognizable commodity to not only administrations of DI athletic departments, but to the fanbase of many DI institutions. And of course, thanks to hockey, UND is blessed with outstanding facilities. Can't think of a nicer place to hold conference basketball tournament than Ralph Engelstad Arena.

[gjw007]

Any success (or impression of it) will be of benefit when shopping for a conference. UND hockey is as successful as they come, definite points.

The question is can UND translate it's success in other sports, primarily football and men's basketball, to Division I. And here's where the rub comes in. There are limited, (and according to repeated comments out of UND) nearly tapped-out, funds for Sioux Athletics. There are significant costs associated with the move, let's say $3.5 million. Given UND's athletic department's financial situation, it is not a given that it can fund itself at the higher level. UND hockey fans will give to hockey first and everything else second, if at all.

If UND can get enough momentum to fully fund football to get money and pr games with DIA and a top 25 rating and have an RPI of 250 or less they are sitting really well. Hockey would be gravy.

UND should be fine with football. Even with 40-50 scholies, Lennon should field a quality team.

Then it comes to basketball, that may be the 800 lb. neglected gorilla in the corner. If UND struggles like UNC, with DI wins in a season you can count on one hand, things may not be pretty. (This is if one graciously realizes that UND's best, if not only hope for a conference, is the Mid-Con.)

UND's hockey and football teams should be fine. UND's men's basketball team is off and on but competitive within the conference. UND's women basketball team is gong to get hit hard but it is a winning program so that should be a positive. The question becomes what is important to the perspective conferences. The BSC clearly is football and it seems the Mid-Com is basketball. The dynamics within the conference will determine if the will expand or not and what is important to the conference. One of the reasons that UND, NDSU, SDSU, and USD didn't move to D1 earlier was because of their locations. Anyone who denies that it is a serious roadblock isn't being realistic.

[NanoBison]

I totally agree. Showing that UND has been committed enough to win 7 DI titles over 5 different decades, averaging 11,000 fans, a money making program, having connections to UM and UW along with Mich/Mich St/BC/BU/Maine/etc, and having the Engelstad complex on campus is all going to make getting into the Mid-Con or Big Sky or any other conference that much more difficult. We should really consider dropping hockey to help us in our conference search.

Hey dummy, where did I say it would make it more difficult? I never said you should consider dropping Hockey. I said it wasn't going to help you. Also funny that you seem to think that having those connections will get you into either the BigSky or MidCon conferences... The only people who make the decisions of you getting in are the respective university presidents, and since NONE of them are employed at schools in the group listed above, that pretty much does nothing for you. I also didn't say the REA wasn't an assest. If you could turn it around to be used as a Basketball Arena, then you have something going for you (yes I realize it can already be used for it, no need to correct me).

Maybe next time, don't go overboard in your attempt to be a facetious smartass...

[IowaBison]

UND's hockey and football teams should be fine. UND's men's basketball team is off and on but competitive within the conference. UND's women basketball team is gong to get hit hard but it is a winning program so that should be a positive. The question becomes what is important to the perspective conferences. The BSC clearly is football and it seems the Mid-Com is basketball. The dynamics within the conference will determine if the will expand or not and what is important to the conference. One of the reasons that UND, NDSU, SDSU, and USD didn't move to D1 earlier was because of their locations. Anyone who denies that it is a serious roadblock isn't being realistic.

I agree that (1) a desire by conferences to expand and (2) geography are the biggest challenges facing UND. But that isn't the question at hand.

(I don't know if I agree about your comment about the BSC being a football conference. They have one national power (Montana), 3-4 decent teams (Montana State, Idaho State, EWU, Portland), and a couple of real stinkers (UNC and Sac State). I think the conference would be infinitely more happy seeing two teams go to the dance than having two or three teams make the DIAA playoffs. Adding teams with RPIs below 300 isn't going to get them there.)

[IowaBison]

And of course, thanks to hockey, UND is blessed with outstanding facilities. C

Which last year didn't cover it's own maintenance costs.

This blessing may in fact be a millstone around UND's neck, just like the alerus.

[Twinsfan]

I don't think that the fact UND has hockey will necessarily help getting into a conference, but on the other hand I don't think that it will put anything in the way of a conference membership either.

[DamStrait]

Which last year didn't cover it's own maintenance costs.

This blessing may in fact be a millstone around UND's neck, just like the alerus.

IowaBison, you need to quit drinking the Bisonville Kool-Aid and let your head clear. Maybe then you can remove that FargoDome millstone from around 'SU's neck.

While I'm at it, PAY ATTENTION NOW, I'd like to remind all of you, DAMN IT I SAID PAY ATTENTION, it's the University of North Dakota (not the University of Grand Forks) and North Dakota State University (not Fargo State University).

[IowaBison]

IowaBison, you need to quit drinking the Bisonville Kool-Aid and let your head clear. Maybe then you can remove that FargoDome millstone from around 'SU's neck.

The FargoDome made money last year. NDSU has free access to a number of event days each year.

The Alerus lost money, the Ralph lost money. The two and UND are trying to squeeze money out of one another when there is none there.

While I'm at it, PAY ATTENTION NOW, I'd like to remind all of you, DAMN IT I SAID PAY ATTENTION, it's the University of North Dakota (not the University of Grand Forks) and North Dakota State University (not Fargo State University).

?

[DamStrait]

The FargoDome made money last year. NDSU has free access to a number of event days each year.

The Alerus lost money, the Ralph lost money. The two and UND are trying to squeeze money out of one another when there is none there.

REA and Alerus are not owned by UND and FargoDome is not owned by 'SU. Their profits or losses have nothing to do with either institution's finances, which was my point. Besides, anybody that truly believes REA lost money last year by means other than creative accounting is out of touch with reality. Take my advice, drop the Kool-Aid cup.

[IowaBison]

REA and Alerus are not owned by UND and FargoDome is not owned by 'SU. Their profits or losses have nothing to do with either institution's finances, which was my point.

They certainly do as they negotiate with one another for fees; you can't squeeze money out of a turnip.

Besides, anybody that truly believes REA lost money last year by means other than creative accounting is out of touch with reality.

Call it what you want, the official books say the were about 1/2 million dollars off.

[MplsBison]

UND and USD will be in the Great West. Either 2008 or 2009.

That means UND will have its top 2 sports taken care of as far as a conference goes.

At the latest, the GWFC can be considered for an autobid in 2014. If WIU or another established team comes over, 2010 is the year.

Then it just comes down to what confernce do you want your basketball team to be in? Do you even care about basketball? I know USD will.

The Mid Con isn't a bad option. Esp. if NDSU and SDSU are in.

[aff]

Hockey isn't going to hurt UND in the transition to DI, or in the search for a conference. The very least it can do is help. This has been discussed alot before. My take on it is sure, hockey is king at UND.......and football is king at NDSU. Does anyone really think that the fact that NDSU sponsors football is going to keep them out of the Mid-Con, a conference that doesn't sponsor football? Nope.

Thanks to hockey, UND already has working relationships with many DI schools like Minnesota, Denver, Maine, New Hampshire, the list goes on and on. Thanks to hockey, UND is already a known and recognizable commodity to not only administrations of DI athletic departments, but to the fanbase of many DI institutions. And of course, thanks to hockey, UND is blessed with outstanding facilities. Can't think of a nicer place to hold conference basketball tournament than Ralph Engelstad Arena.

I think that people believe hockey will be a hinderance to a successful D-I basketball program, because unlike football and basketball, hockey and basketball are competing at identical times of the year for the same fan base. If you tell someone that you are averaging 11,000 for hockey, thats great, but now tell me what the chances of UND averaging 11,000 for mens basketball is going to be? It simply won't happen, because there isn't a large enough fan base a mid-major type school to have that many fans for 2 different simultaneous sports. Saying "Football is kind at XXX, and their basketball is fine", is a fallacy, because football and basketball aren't directly competing for fans with each other, in fact, they are probably assisting each other, because football fans will likely be bored in the winter, and may switch over to watching basketball. Hockey fans are probably going to watch hockey at UND though, and basketball fans are going to watch basketball.

Also, what do you think the mid con is going to assume your priorities are? If UND has a losing season in hockey, and 5-25 season in mens basketball, both likely because of funding, which is UND going to put more money into? Hockey of course, because thats the money maker, and thats where UND gets its claim to fame from. How is the mid-con going to like that though? They'll be stuck playing a low RPI team, screwing over their most important sport. (This is a hypothetical situation to show the importance of certain sports teams at UND, don't tell me that its unlikely to happen, I know that). Douple has been talking about getting the conference up to two bid status in the future, and the presidents want that to be their goal. In order to do that they will need to bring the bottom feeders in the conference up in RPI, by getting them to add more funding. I think that they'll consider UND's basketball success probability very, very hard to add them to the conference. Even the most die hard UND fans have to admit that NDSU/SDSU combination presents a better chance for D-I basketball success than UND does. I know that neither school has exactly been dominating, but NDSU really looks like they've put together a great team, and SDSU has almost everything in place, including the history, to produce a winner. That has to come across as better than mens basketball being your fourth priority (hockey, football, womens basketball).

Finally, mid con coaches are going to know that hockey is going to be used against UND in the recruiting process in basketball. Its hard enough to get D-I talent, how is it going to be trying to get talent, when other coaches are telling your recruits that they are the last priority at UND, so they should attend somewhere else to play?

[aff]

UND and USD will be in the Great West. Either 2008 or 2009.

That means UND will have its top 2 sports taken care of as far as a conference goes.

At the latest, the GWFC can be considered for an autobid in 2014. If WIU or another established team comes over, 2010 is the year.

Then it just comes down to what confernce do you want your basketball team to be in? Do you even care about basketball? I know USD will.

The Mid Con isn't a bad option. Esp. if NDSU and SDSU are in.

So when do you think UND/USD are going to announce which conference they're joining? I'm sure the big sky and mid-con are on the edge of their seats waiting for the big announcement of which of them gets to have UND/USD! Man, the SU's are terrible, they had to take the first conference to admit them, and had to wait THREE years for it. Good thing UND/USD can simply choose their conference and let the members know a year early that they will need to adjust their schedules for their admittance.

[MplsBison]

Not saying the Mid Con will take them in right away. Might be a few years before teams like Oral Roberts, Centenary, and Oakland jump ship. SUU might leave soon, though.

But the Great West will take them in as soon as possible.

[GeauxSioux]

I think that people believe hockey will be a hinderance to a successful D-I basketball program, because unlike football and basketball, hockey and basketball are competing at identical times of the year for the same fan base. If you tell someone that you are averaging 11,000 for hockey, thats great, but now tell me what the chances of UND averaging 11,000 for mens basketball is going to be? It simply won't happen, because there isn't a large enough fan base a mid-major type school to have that many fans for 2 different simultaneous sports. Saying "Football is kind at XXX, and their basketball is fine", is a fallacy, because football and basketball aren't directly competing for fans with each other, in fact, they are probably assisting each other, because football fans will likely be bored in the winter, and may switch over to watching basketball. Hockey fans are probably going to watch hockey at UND though, and basketball fans are going to watch basketball.

Also, what do you think the mid con is going to assume your priorities are? If UND has a losing season in hockey, and 5-25 season in mens basketball, both likely because of funding, which is UND going to put more money into? Hockey of course, because thats the money maker, and thats where UND gets its claim to fame from. How is the mid-con going to like that though? They'll be stuck playing a low RPI team, screwing over their most important sport. (This is a hypothetical situation to show the importance of certain sports teams at UND, don't tell me that its unlikely to happen, I know that). Douple has been talking about getting the conference up to two bid status in the future, and the presidents want that to be their goal. In order to do that they will need to bring the bottom feeders in the conference up in RPI, by getting them to add more funding. I think that they'll consider UND's basketball success probability very, very hard to add them to the conference. Even the most die hard UND fans have to admit that NDSU/SDSU combination presents a better chance for D-I basketball success than UND does. I know that neither school has exactly been dominating, but NDSU really looks like they've put together a great team, and SDSU has almost everything in place, including the history, to produce a winner. That has to come across as better than mens basketball being your fourth priority (hockey, football, womens basketball).

Finally, mid con coaches are going to know that hockey is going to be used against UND in the recruiting process in basketball. Its hard enough to get D-I talent, how is it going to be trying to get talent, when other coaches are telling your recruits that they are the last priority at UND, so they should attend somewhere else to play?

Yes hockey and basketball are played at the same time of the year, but they don't play at the same time of the day and they are not always at home on the same weekend. There are many nights when I would go to WBB, MBB and hockey all in the same night and that was when you had to walk in the dead of winter from Hyslop to the old REA.

Hockey has been the primary sport at UND for quite some time and yet have winning records against:

NDSU 156-128

USD 94-77

SDSU 105-77

I think that shows some commitment to basketball.

[aff]

What are those basketball records for the last 20 years? Saying UND has had a dominant basketball program for the last 15 years is pretty off base. Its been awhile since UND had some dominant teams in mens bball. I don't see that changing to much with a move to division I.

And I commend you for going to three different games in a day, but realistically, how many people are going to be able to do that? Thats quite a time commitment that not too many people can make to UND athletics. Especially if the choice is Minnesota in hockey, or almost anybody else that UND can get into grand forks for basketball. The team names aren't going to be as glamorous for bball as they are for hockey, and your current basketball attendance is likely to suffer from where its currently at.

If you need more evidence of where UND's priorities are, just read the article on the other thread where football is getting 21 scholarships, but basketball will be "next in line". I know that getting 57 gives you the chance to play money games, but come on, its 3 scholarships, 4 or 5 if you throw in scholies for girls in the current ratio you have been, but you can't find the money for that? SDSU and NDSU both immediately put mens and womens basketball all the way up, as almost all schools do.

[GeauxSioux]

What are those basketball records for the last 20 years? Saying UND has had a dominant basketball program for the last 15 years is pretty off base. Its been awhile since UND had some dominant teams in mens bball. I don't see that changing to much with a move to division I.

I didn't say that UND has been dominant in the last 15 years. In fact the Glas years have been a disppointment with the exception of the early 90's when he had great assistants like McDermott. In showing the records against the SU's and USD I was demonstrating that over the long haul UND has faired well for being a "hockey school". You chose to take a snapshot of the last 15 years of men's basketball to make your point. There is one thing that is changing with the move to Division I and that change has already occured in coaching.

And I commend you for going to three different games in a day, but realistically, how many people are going to be able to do that? Thats quite a time commitment that not too many people can make to UND athletics. Especially if the choice is Minnesota in hockey, or almost anybody else that UND can get into grand forks for basketball. The team names aren't going to be as glamorous for bball as they are for hockey, and your current basketball attendance is likely to suffer from where its currently at.

I was not alone in my trek between the venues. You can still go to a hockey games against Minnesota after playing a basketball game against, say UWGB. They typically start the hockey games later when the basketball team is home.

If you need more evidence of where UND's priorities are, just read the article on the other thread where football is getting 21 scholarships, but basketball will be "next in line". I know that getting 57 gives you the chance to play money games, but come on, its 3 scholarships, 4 or 5 if you throw in scholies for girls in the current ratio you have been, but you can't find the money for that? SDSU and NDSU both immediately put mens and womens basketball all the way up, as almost all schools do.

I'm not involved in the decision making of scholarships, but if you can get a money game in a couple of years after playing I-AA football and the basketball team will not be able to get to "the dance" for a few years it would seem that football is where the scholarships should be allocated. The $$ made of the "money game" in football could pay for scholarships elsewhere.

I realize that some conferences such as the Mid-Con would look at basketball scholarships first others such as Big Sky would look toward the football scholarships. Some may look at that as a telling sign of where UND is trying to position itself.

[rabidrabbit]

Since the question is "Does Hockey help or hinder our request to get into a conference for other sports? Principally focused on basketball and football (because those are the defining sports for a conference)

In Football, UND's possible conferences are: GWFC (5 members, one less than needed for auto-bid eligibility) nearest member <100 mi away and ex-NCC rival (GEE, this appears to be a slam dunk). The Big Sky - Nine football school, nearest team 700 miles away. No baseball or Swimming & Diving (UND sponsored sports). Gateway 8 members - No apparent interest in expanding at this time., nearest school is 450 mi away.

Basketball - Move up NCC - 13 years of no auto-bid, but all local, assumes at least 6 existing NCC schools move up with UND.

Mid-Con, all sports except hockey and football. Don't believe any of Mid-con schools have hockey. Emphasis is Basketball, and then baseball.

Big Sky, no swim/dive or baseball. No hockey at any of the 9 schools?

MoValley - won't touch a transitional.

Horizon - Mid-West local, (bus trip) and Grand Forks is 500 mi from nearest UW-Green Bay. Some hockey schools, may help.