Hockey Developement in ND

[ChadR]

Hi everyone, long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have a question for everyone: What does highschool hockey in North Dakota need to do to better develop players for the next level? I mean lets take Marto from GFC for an example. Personally I think this kid is one of the best players to come out of ND in the last 10 years. He earned a scholarship to UND, but my point is it is going to take him 2 years to develop in the USHL. He wont be on campus until after his 21st b-day. In Minnesota, you see highschool seniors taking that step straight from highschool to college. What is it that they are doing better? Im not knocking North Dakota, I just want to hear some opinions. NDPride-i think you will have a good opinion for me, you are much more knowledegable about the game and ND hockey. thanks

[crosby_87]

Hi everyone, long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have a question for everyone: What does highschool hockey in North Dakota need to do to better develop players for the next level? I mean lets take Marto from GFC for an example. Personally I think this kid is one of the best players to come out of ND in the last 10 years. He earned a scholarship to UND, but my point is it is going to take him 2 years to develop in the USHL. He wont be on campus until after his 21st b-day. In Minnesota, you see highschool seniors taking that step straight from highschool to college. What is it that they are doing better? Im not knocking North Dakota, I just want to hear some opinions. NDPride-i think you will have a good opinion for me, you are much more knowledegable about the game and ND hockey. thanks

IMO...

Hockey in Minnesota is LIFE...those kids have the sport drilled into their heads by the time they are 2 years old. They practice a lot more, and have much more community support, just because hockey is a way of life there. That means that almost all the teams are better, so they have better competition every day. It all starts when the kids are young.

[Siouxmama]

About Marto...isn't one of the reasons he is going to the USHL is to bulk up? I seem to remember him as a lanky kid who needs some weight and muscle on those bones.

[Diggler]

I would say it's competition too. All of North Dakota is about equal to Section 8 in Minnesota. North Dakota has Central, Red River, South, G-PR & Minot and that's about it.

[ChadR]

About Marto...isn't one of the reasons he is going to the USHL is to bulk up? I seem to remember him as a lanky kid who needs some weight and muscle on those bones.

Thats true, but when have we seen a player from ND go straight from highschool to DI college. Potulny and Irmen were true freshman, but they had 2 years of experience in the USHL.

[crosby_87]

Thats true, but when have we seen a player from ND go straight from highschool to DI college. Potulny and Irmen were true freshman, but they had 2 years of experience in the USHL.

I believe Massen also had 2 years. Even Mike Peluso played in the USHL if I remember correctly.

[stafford_rules]

the damn girls programs are what needs to be developed! (sorry its a bit off topic)

[Let'sGoHawks!]

I think it is a population thing. MN has around 8 times the population of ND. I bet the per capita amount of "quality players" is the same between the two states.

[ScottM]

As Diggler alluded, outside of larger population centers, like Fargo, GF, etc., you will be hard pressed to find smaller towns with their own rinks, let alone organized hockey programs. Contrast that with northern Minnesota towns of similar size, as well as towns in Canada. Smaller towns in NoDak seem to center around FB and bouncyball.

[Sioux-cia]

As Diggler alluded, outside of larger population centers, like Fargo, GF, etc., you will be hard pressed to find smaller towns with their own rinks, let alone organized hockey programs. Contrast that with northern Minnesota towns of similar size, as well as towns in Canada. Smaller towns in NoDak seem to center around FB and bouncyball.

True but then you have towns like Park River, Cando, Devils Lake, Grafton, and some I'm missing, who have rinks that the community maintains. I think it was Park River that had a tractor fixed up to act as a Zamboni when my younger son was in traveling, little guy (before highschool) hockey. They like their hockey in those communities. But the expense is passed on to the parents and in this day and age people living and working in those little towns are going to be hard pressed to keep it up.

[jbvollmer]

..... you will be hard pressed to find smaller towns with their own rinks, let alone organized hockey programs. Contrast that with northern Minnesota towns of similar size, as well as towns in Canada. Smaller towns in NoDak seem to center around FB and bouncyball.

Agreed. Add coaching as well. Once you get out of the eastern part of the state, youth coaching drops off. I'm not saying there are not qualified coaches in the west, but the west doesn't have the depth needed to develop the same numbers (per capita) of Minnesota. Most mite/squirt/pee-wee coaching are parents who may have never played high-school, yet alone DIII/DI hockey.

I grew up in North Dakota playing bouncyball, I always had a coach with at least high-school and, in most cases, DIII or DII experience. It does help....

[Sterling]

Population differences and passion for the sport aside, the only comparison you need to make is Fargo vs. Moorhead. Moorhead provides more development opportunity in their skating programs and make ice more available year round. Fargo doesn't have the same level of commitment to the sport.

[Siouxmama]

Agreed. Add coaching as well. Once you get out of the eastern part of the state, youth coaching drops off. I'm not saying there are not qualified coaches in the west, but the west doesn't have the depth needed to develop the same numbers (per capita) of Minnesota. Most mite/squirt/pee-wee coaching are parents who may have never played high-school, yet alone DIII/DI hockey.

I grew up in North Dakota playing bouncyball, I always had a coach with at least high-school and, in most cases, DIII or DII experience. It does help....

I agree with the small town theory. I grew up in Devils Lake. While hockey was a sport, starting at termites, any games they played had to be traveling games. This was before the majority of families went and stayed in hotels, and parents who could go would take extra kids and some of the others would stay with "host families", the homes of the opponents parents. This was not uncommon, as my parents were host many times to visiting kids. (Side note: my brother played against Ed Belfour many times, and when in Devils Lake, he usually stayed with my best friends family. Ray and Ed had similar last names, so thats how he picked him to stay with his family. Anyway...my long winded point is, hockey is expensive, and in smaller towns, the expense falls onto the parents, as there aren't as many organizations in smaller towns to help sponsor teams and assist with the cost. I think this may have kept many kids out of hockey, and they played another sport. Who knows the talent we may have had.

[UNDhockey22]

Development of players comes from two sources; the player, and the coach. The player has to want to improve and learn the game of hockey for the coach to be able to have any significant impact on the player. That may be a function of how well the coach presents the message to his players but ultimately the player has to want to improve. These great players are not being made in their on ice practice time. You can make a good player with just the ice time alloted for practice and so forth. These great MN players we are seeing are coming from what they do off the ice when no one is looking. It's a love for the game and that sometimes can be spread like a wildfire in a community that has a strong hockey background (Moorhead, Bloomington Jefferson, Edina...). Many of these hockey communities have former players that may have played pro, d-1, d-3, or Jr's coming back to coach these teams. The love for the game is passed from them unto the kids and it snowballs from there.

[Chewey]

Competition plays a big part. I think that ND is, like another poster said, comparable to MN Section 8. When I played H.S. hockey in Minot in the early and mid 80's, we had a lot more Canadian competition and we were not restricted so much with our number of games as they are now. We played the Notre Dame Hounds, Weyburn, EStevan and many other towns, some of which are now in the SJHL like the N.D. Hounds. Personally, I'd take that competition over anything MN has to offer. It seems as though this does not happen now. Also, in MN more kids are one sport only kids. In ND, one has the hockey player who is also the QB for the football team and runs track or plays baseball. Perhaps this has something to do with it.

[skateshattrick]

Hi everyone, long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have a question for everyone: What does highschool hockey in North Dakota need to do to better develop players for the next level? I mean lets take Marto from GFC for an example. Personally I think this kid is one of the best players to come out of ND in the last 10 years. He earned a scholarship to UND, but my point is it is going to take him 2 years to develop in the USHL. He wont be on campus until after his 21st b-day. In Minnesota, you see highschool seniors taking that step straight from highschool to college. What is it that they are doing better? Im not knocking North Dakota, I just want to hear some opinions. NDPride-i think you will have a good opinion for me, you are much more knowledegable about the game and ND hockey. thanks

The reasons are many. First and foremost, the NDHSAA limits the number of games that teams from ND can play AND requires that they play all of the teams in the conference. For teams like GFRR and Central, this limited the number of games that they could play against traditional rivals like Roseau, Warroad, TRF, and even Grand Rapids, Moorhead and some Twin Cities teams. Better competition makes better teams. Second, the lack of competition actually starts earlier. Let's start with the Fargo Flyers, the feeder program for Fargo South. The team that just graduated had a lot of success against very good Minnesota competition, including Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad, Thief River Falls and Twin Cities powers. That is also true of current teams, as a Squirt A team went 47-1 just 2 years ago, and last year's team lost only 3 games. However, by the time that they play Bantam A, the number of games that they play are limited to 40-45 games, and about 1/2 of the games are against ND competition. There are league games against 2 Bismarck teams, Mandan, Dickinson, Jamestown, West Fargo and North Fargo (Raiders). That is a total of 14 games. There are also games against Grand Forks and Grafton, which traditionally are stronger. That leaves only about 20 games against Minnesota competition. There are also traditional rivalies in Minnesota, like Fergus Falls, Detroit Lakes and Alexandria, which may or may not be very good depending upon the year. It is difficult to get many games against Twin Cities teams or even Moorhead because Moorhead looks to the Twin Cities for better competition, and the Twin Cities teams have enough competition within a very concentrated radius. Plus, Minnesota (in accordance with USA Hockey guidelines) has limited the number of games. As a result, they don't want to play ND teams unless they know that they are very good. Third, it is a reputation/exposure thing. Minnesota teams get so much more exposure because of the state tournaments and its reputation. ND kids--who may be as good or better--do not get the opportunity until they play juniors for a year or two. By contrast, kids from Moorhead, TRF, Warroad, Roseau, etc. get scholarships right out of high school. It is a fact of life. That is why Danny Irmen and Ryan Potulny skipped their last 2 years of high school hockey and Jordan Willert skipped his senior year---to get exposure in the USHL. I have said it before and will say it again--Aaron Marvin is not as good as some of the ND kids that are his same age (he should be a senior--he was held back). If you don't believe me, look at the Elite 1 stats for last year. Paul Weisgarber, Erick Galt, Grant Larson, Andy Dittus and others had more points. However, he plays for a tradition rich program in Minnesota, and also has the name recognition.

There are other reasons, but those are some of the main ones.

[jloos]

The reasons are many. First and foremost, the NDHSAA limits the number of games that teams from ND can play AND requires that they play all of the teams in the conference. For teams like GFRR and Central, this limited the number of games that they could play against traditional rivals like Roseau, Warroad, TRF, and even Grand Rapids, Moorhead and some Twin Cities teams. Better competition makes better teams. Second, the lack of competition actually starts earlier. Let's start with the Fargo Flyers, the feeder program for Fargo South. The team that just graduated had a lot of success against very good Minnesota competition, including Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad, Thief River Falls and Twin Cities powers. That is also true of current teams, as a Squirt A team went 47-1 just 2 years ago, and last year's team lost only 3 games. However, by the time that they play Bantam A, the number of games that they play are limited to 40-45 games, and about 1/2 of the games are against ND competition. There are league games against 2 Bismarck teams, Mandan, Dickinson, Jamestown, West Fargo and North Fargo (Raiders). That is a total of 14 games. There are also games against Grand Forks and Grafton, which traditionally are stronger. That leaves only about 20 games against Minnesota competition. There are also traditional rivalies in Minnesota, like Fergus Falls, Detroit Lakes and Alexandria, which may or may not be very good depending upon the year. It is difficult to get many games against Twin Cities teams or even Moorhead because Moorhead looks to the Twin Cities for better competition, and the Twin Cities teams have enough competition within a very concentrated radius. Plus, Minnesota (in accordance with USA Hockey guidelines) has limited the number of games. As a result, they don't want to play ND teams unless they know that they are very good. Third, it is a reputation/exposure thing. Minnesota teams get so much more exposure because of the state tournaments and its reputation. ND kids--who may be as good or better--do not get the opportunity until they play juniors for a year or two. By contrast, kids from Moorhead, TRF, Warroad, Roseau, etc. get scholarships right out of high school. It is a fact of life. That is why Danny Irmen and Ryan Potulny skipped their last 2 years of high school hockey and Jordan Willert skipped his senior year---to get exposure in the USHL. I have said it before and will say it again--Aaron Marvin is not as good as some of the ND kids that are his same age (he should be a senior--he was held back). If you don't believe me, look at the Elite 1 stats for last year. Paul Weisgarber, Erick Galt, Grant Larson, Andy Dittus and others had more points. However, he plays for a tradition rich program in Minnesota, and also has the name recognition.

There are other reasons, but those are some of the main ones.

What did Aaron Marvin ever do to you

At the various elite tournies my cousin was in he was told in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North). A lot of that had to due with limited games, weak competition, few teammates at his level. However, coaching also had a lot to do with it. Coaches like Morinville develop talent and prepare players for the next level. Most ND coaches use their talented players simply to get as many points from them as possible. They either do not have the ability, or don't care about developing players for post high school competition. A good argument can be made that they are not paid to develop individual players, and that may be true. However, schools like Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad ect... expect their coaching staff to help develop talent, not simply exploit it.

I think Shanley has done a good job developing what they have. It is still difficult with the lack of competition, and one or two standout players for those players to get any better. It looks like they have the talent coming up to rival South and the GF schools in the next 5 or so years.

[UNDhockey22]

What did Aaron Marvin ever do to you

At the various elite tournies my cousin was in he was told in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North). A lot of that had to due with limited games, weak competition, few teammates at his level. However, coaching also had a lot to do with it. Coaches like Morinville develop talent and prepare players for the next level. Most ND coaches use their talented players simply to get as many points from them as possible. They either do not have the ability, or don't care about developing players for post high school competition. A good argument can be made that they are not paid to develop individual players, and that may be true. However, schools like Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad ect... expect their coaching staff to help develop talent, not simply exploit it.

I think Shanley has done a good job developing what they have. It is still difficult with the lack of competition, and one or two standout players for those players to get any better. It looks like they have the talent coming up to rival South and the GF schools in the next 5 or so years.

Jeez, I wonder if they told Cory McClean he'd never play after high school if he didn't leave North too? It's a fact that if you play against better competition you are going to improve. But the focus should not be on the high school level. Major chemical changes in the body usual occur around the beginning of puberty(13 for a guy). One can mature at a later stage in life or be a late bloomer but in most cases this is when it occurs. That is when you can make significant benifits to your game. The emphasis should be on developing these kids when they are young. Not that we should stop when they get to be 16,17,18 thats not the case at all. These players from Minnesota that are so great in high school hockey are great before they reach the high school level too. It sounds like some people believe it is the responsibility of the high schools to turn these players into stars. This is generally not the case. If a player never put any time in when he was young, you can't expect him to go from a JV player his sophomore year, to a USHL prospect his senior year. It just doesnt happen. Get these kids coaches, and off ice workouts when they are younger. I also don't think real improvement comes in a game. How often do you touch the puck in a game? 30 seconds? You can't focus on leg turnover or keeping your head up when your stickhandling. These things come in practice.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I really think the primary reason now at this time is the population difference....If we consider Grand Forks only, they play section 8 competition on a regular basis and the city of 60k has at least 5 indoor rinks and multitudes of outdoor rinks. The city also sends talent as a percentage of population that I believe is equal to other states to the College hockey ranks (I believe USHO or College Hockey On Line did a study on %s based on each state) and also in the USHL. In the past, I would have agreed with the coaching and rink availability, but I believe that difference is pretty much nil today.

BobIwabuchiFan

[ND Pride]

What did Aaron Marvin ever do to you

At the various elite tournies my cousin was in he was told in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North). A lot of that had to due with limited games, weak competition, few teammates at his level. However, coaching also had a lot to do with it. Coaches like Morinville develop talent and prepare players for the next level. Most ND coaches use their talented players simply to get as many points from them as possible. They either do not have the ability, or don't care about developing players for post high school competition. A good argument can be made that they are not paid to develop individual players, and that may be true. However, schools like Moorhead, Roseau, Warroad ect... expect their coaching staff to help develop talent, not simply exploit it.

I think Shanley has done a good job developing what they have. It is still difficult with the lack of competition, and one or two standout players for those players to get any better. It looks like they have the talent coming up to rival South and the GF schools in the next 5 or so years.

Jloos - how are ya doing. Couple of things here. I have seen your cousin play for most of his career and he has a lot of talent. He is one of those players with a "will to score" and handles the puck very very well. His size also serves him well. My point, is that those who said, "in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North)" were over stating the case. It is true that the program there has not been a strong developmental one but as a previous poster stated - how about Cory McClean a top USHL player who finished up 4 years at Notre Dame, and Pat O'Leary - USHL and then with the Sioux, Nate Nomeland - also a career at North and then the USHL and Princeton, and also some of the D-III players Jerod Klava (NAHL and Gustavus). There are more. But, as a total generalization that statement is wrong as it overstates the case and totally ignores the kids who went on anyway to be successful. End of lecture. Too bad Cory's career was cut short with injury as he would have continued his success through juniors and beyond.

I will say, however, that if a kid wants to move up in the hockey world and his local friendships and other sports are not important, it can be easier if you get into the right high school but, a big trend now, is to try and make an inseason AAA team - that is, leave home for the school year and go live in Omaha (AAA Energy), Colorado (Outlaws, etc), Illinois (Team Illinois AAA, Chicago Young Americans, Mission AAA, etc, etc) or the two dozen or more other AAAs (Dallas AAA, Compuware, Honey Baked, etc) that are in the general vicinity of the central part of the US. I am not saying that I think this is the best way to live your young life but it is a way that many kids and parents are choosing because of their hockey focus.

[ND Pride]

Hi everyone, long-time reader, first-time poster.

I have a question for everyone: What does highschool hockey in North Dakota need to do to better develop players for the next level? I mean lets take Marto from GFC for an example. Personally I think this kid is one of the best players to come out of ND in the last 10 years. He earned a scholarship to UND, but my point is it is going to take him 2 years to develop in the USHL. He wont be on campus until after his 21st b-day. In Minnesota, you see highschool seniors taking that step straight from highschool to college. What is it that they are doing better? Im not knocking North Dakota, I just want to hear some opinions. NDPride-i think you will have a good opinion for me, you are much more knowledegable about the game and ND hockey. thanks

ChadR-nice post and thanks for the credit. I have read all of the posts on this thread and there is a lot of good information provided and many of the factors have been covered. I have some reports to work on the next few days so I can't really give a total response but there are good answers to your questions. I will get back to that question later.

Just a couple of things. You mention Minnesota kids (high school seniors) taking the step straight out of high school to college. You ask, what are they doing better? I could go on and on in response. Let me start with one variable that has already been mentioned on this board. You can call it the biological aspect, statistical, gene pool or population. That is one major prerequisite to success - but only one. What I mean is this - in the Minnkota district there are 44,262 registered hockey players (Minnesota, ND and SD). I had the breakout numbers for ND and SD but recently deleted them. Trust me that Minnesota has thousands more playing hockey. Their population is larger - of course so is the population of Arkansas but we have more hockey players than they do - obviously there is tradition as a factor and culture. Back to my point, from a purely statistical standpoint when you have a larger group of people - a larger gene pool so to speak - you are more likely to have larger numbers people outside of the statistical average - e.g. taller, faster, quicker etc.

So from a purely genetic and population size standpoint you start with the potential to have better players because of the larger selection of talent that a large gene pool provides. That is the most "structural" and fundamental advantage that larger states have. Of course, then you need a culture that supports the game -people who understand it, value it, etc. That is why Grand Forks has typically led the state in hockey - more of a hockey infrastructure and culture - even though Fargo has a bigger gene pool - of course other variables come into play here as well (coaching, development programs, rinks, etc, etc).

Back to my point, with a large gene pool you are more likely to have kids who were born with the right combination of physical traits to get them into D-I hockey out of high school. North Dakota simply does not have a large enough gene pool to do that - at least with any regularity -it is not impossible - just that the numbers are not on our side. Of course then one might say - what about Warroad, Roseau, etc and other small towns - their gene pool is small - how do you explain that? This is where culture becomes important - the community values the sport and kids are expected to try the game and receive good development. Also, you do have people who move into those small communities, or are recruited, to play on their teams. Take Moorhead for example, in the 70s little hockey culture - not much at all - then new people come in, traditions are built, coaching is good, infrastructure is developed and the right synergies are present. That environment also attracts people from outside of the area and that adds further to the advantage. Tally up how many kids came into Moorhead from other places (Alexandria, International Falls, Fargo, etc) and how that provided some additional boost to a strong program. Quality attracts quality. Anyway, you could write a history for each community and detail the different variables that have contribued to the success, or lack of success.

Briefly, you could have the best developmental program in the world and it might be possible that no North Dakota kids jump from high school to D-I in one year because they just do not have the right collection of physical attributes at age 18 to do it. In any case, there is a lot of debate among hockey "followers" about playing one or two years of juniors. There are some who feel that currently, too many are going to D-I college without enough developmental time in juniors (I have no Sioux players in mind when I say this but I have heard comments about others at top WCHA schools alluding to the idea that they needed more time or some time in juniors to develop). Anyway, these are complex issues and there is much more to it than what I have covered here. Others have added variables that are important. These are important discusisons because in North Dakota, because of our small numbers, we cannot afford to do it (development of players) wrong.

[jbvollmer]

...is to try and make an inseason AAA team - that is, leave home for the school year and go live in Omaha (AAA Energy), Colorado (Outlaws, etc), Illinois (Team Illinois AAA, Chicago Young Americans, Mission AAA, etc, etc) or the two dozen or more other AAAs (Dallas AAA, Compuware, Honey Baked, etc) that are in the general vicinity of the central part of the US. I am not saying that I think this is the best way to live your young life but it is a way that many kids and parents are choosing because of their hockey focus.

Agreed. The level of competition, especially at tournaments is amazing. You are truly seeing the future of hockey. Plus, the level of coaching is, to quote Jim Rome, "phenonemal". My 92' birth year son plays fro the STL AAA Blues. The organization is directed and coached by several ex-NHL'ers (Basil McRae, Al MacInnis, Jeff Brown). I've seen the same structure put into many AAA organizations (i.e.: 92 Mission is coached by xNHL'er Gino Cavellini) and it's amazing how the kids progress.

[jloos]

Jloos - how are ya doing. Couple of things here. I have seen your cousin play for most of his career and he has a lot of talent. He is one of those players with a "will to score" and handles the puck very very well. His size also serves him well. My point, is that those who said, "in no uncertain terms that he would never play past high school if he stayed where he was (Fargo North)" were over stating the case. It is true that the program there has not been a strong developmental one but as a previous poster stated - how about Cory McClean a top USHL player who finished up 4 years at Notre Dame, and Pat O'Leary - USHL and then with the Sioux, Nate Nomeland - also a career at North and then the USHL and Princeton, and also some of the D-III players Jerod Klava (NAHL and Gustavus). There are more. But, as a total generalization that statement is wrong as it overstates the case and totally ignores the kids who went on anyway to be successful. End of lecture. Too bad Cory's career was cut short with injury as he would have continued his success through juniors and beyond.

I will say, however, that if a kid wants to move up in the hockey world and his local friendships and other sports are not important, it can be easier if you get into the right high school but, a big trend now, is to try and make an inseason AAA team - that is, leave home for the school year and go live in Omaha (AAA Energy), Colorado (Outlaws, etc), Illinois (Team Illinois AAA, Chicago Young Americans, Mission AAA, etc, etc) or the two dozen or more other AAAs (Dallas AAA, Compuware, Honey Baked, etc) that are in the general vicinity of the central part of the US. I am not saying that I think this is the best way to live your young life but it is a way that many kids and parents are choosing because of their hockey focus.

I agree to a point. However, players like McLean had to spend a couple of years in the USHL in order to bring their game up. I know McLean and he was one of the most dedicated athletes I have ever seen. The kid worked out on his own and was one of the most mature HS kids I have ever met. Same with O'Leary (who I still think was screwed by Blais).

I agree that many of these elite coaches are very biased against playing HS hockey, but they do have a point. Exposure, competition, coaching, teammates and work ethic all play a big part in whether or not a player is going to jump to the next level. McLean planned on quitting hockey and going to school until he was talked into following the Ice Sharks to Chicago. He did not have the exposure he would have had, if he would have played in the USHL during HS, or even if he played HS hockey for Moorhead or another high profile MN team.

It is true some kids make it to the next level without jumping ship. However, it puts them at a disadvantage in my opinion. This is not to say I like the way hockey (and sports in general) are going. I think kids should stay in their hometown and enjoy the HS experience. Realistically, AAA teams and junior leagues are the way to go if you want to play at the next level. Unfortunately, many parents and kids overestimate the likelihood of this happening.

[ND Pride]

I agree to a point. However, players like McLean had to spend a couple of years in the USHL in order to bring their game up. I know McLean and he was one of the most dedicated athletes I have ever seen. The kid worked out on his own and was one of the most mature HS kids I have ever met. Same with O'Leary (who I still think was screwed by Blais).

I agree that many of these elite coaches are very biased against playing HS hockey, but they do have a point. Exposure, competition, coaching, teammates and work ethic all play a big part in whether or not a player is going to jump to the next level. McLean planned on quitting hockey and going to school until he was talked into following the Ice Sharks to Chicago. He did not have the exposure he would have had, if he would have played in the USHL during HS, or even if he played HS hockey for Moorhead or another high profile MN team.

It is true some kids make it to the next level without jumping ship. However, it puts them at a disadvantage in my opinion. This is not to say I like the way hockey (and sports in general) are going. I think kids should stay in their hometown and enjoy the HS experience. Realistically, AAA teams and junior leagues are the way to go if you want to play at the next level. Unfortunately, many parents and kids overestimate the likelihood of this happening.

I think we fundamentally agree on the issues. Basically, the majority of players who want to go the D-I route (at least WCHA and CCHA level D-I) must play at least one year of juniors - those who do not are the exception. (As an interesting sidelight - check the rosters at top D-III schools and you will typically see from 50% to 95% of the kids on their rosters with Junior "A" experience) Yes, many elite coaches are biased against High School hockey and they do have a point. In other parts of the country there is little or no high school hockey and kids are filtered to skill based tiers (AAA, AA etc) in minor midgets and major midgets. And as you note, ability based teams allow for more exposure at the higher tiers, better coaching, team synergy etc.

And I also agree that kids who do not "jump ship" are at a disadvantage. My point, is that you are not necessarily, absolutely doomed if you stay with a high school team that is at the level of Moorhead for example.

[UNDhockey22]

I think we fundamentally agree on the issues. Basically, the majority of players who want to go the D-I route (at least WCHA and CCHA level D-I) must play at least one year of juniors - those who do not are the exception. (As an interesting sidelight - check the rosters at top D-III schools and you will typically see from 50% to 95% of the kids on their rosters with Junior "A" experience) Yes, many elite coaches are biased against High School hockey and they do have a point. In other parts of the country there is little or no high school hockey and kids are filtered to skill based tiers (AAA, AA etc) in minor midgets and major midgets. And as you note, ability based teams allow for more exposure at the higher tiers, better coaching, team synergy etc.

And I also agree that kids who do not "jump ship" are at a disadvantage. My point, is that you are not necessarily, absolutely doomed if you stay with a high school team that is at the level of Moorhead for example.

No one is absolutely doomed no matter where they play. If the player wants, he will develop anyway.