DI Decision

[bincitysioux]

My point is that NDSU and SDSU can schedule those schools and save massive amounts of money OUT OF CONFERENCE. Why would NDSU and SDSU thow away guarunteed games against the california schools, when they can get out of conference games against the old NCC anyway? There's nothing for NDSU and SDSU to gain by admitting those schools. They will have games against them anyway, plus an added advantage over those schools of having a conference. Tell me one benefit that the SU's have by seeing any of the other NCC schools in the great west besides the first one to move up. There aren't any. They would be simply replacing Cal Davis and Cal Poly with Mankato, USD, and St. Cloud. The same schools they are currently trying to move away from. The SU's have a good think going right now with the great west. Why would they give up probably the two most competitive and potential filled schools in the conference, to admit three schools that aren't even sure if they can fund a full alotment of scholarships? Theres absolutely no advantage to it for either school. On top of that, they would both be losing a large recruiting area in pretty much the entire western united states, only to have more schools in minnesota to compete against. Don't believe me? Look how many arizona kids SDSU has signed. How many western kids are on NDSU's roster? Tell me one advantage the SU's gain by having the old NCC admitted to the great west? They certainly don't owe any of those schools a favor after their nice boycott during the toughest years of the transition.

There's one spot in the great west open right now. The first school to move will take, after that, everyone else is screwed.

I agree to a point. If UND joins the Great West, you've got 3 Dakota schools & three west coast schools (counting SUU). From what I gather from reading various message boards is that alot of fans of Poly & Davis desire keeping the GWFC viable and want members to join. I have no idea what the administrations of these universities think, but they're both good football programs that would benefit greatly from an auto-bid. With a GWFC autobid, down the road you could routinely see two, sometimes even three, Great West teams make the playoffs. The west coast schools could open to more expansion later, probably another west coast school (U of San Diego?), which in turn could open the door for another Upper Midwest school (St. Cloud, South Dakota?) Far-fetched? Probably, but I don't think Poly and Davis has as big an aversion to travel to the Dakota's for football as some think. Remember, they're travel expense for all sports except football (Big West members) is miniscule compared to any other GWFC or NCC members.

[bincitysioux]

According to Wayne Nelson, South Dakota is the most likely schools to head for DI if UND does indeed decide to make the move.

Link

South Dakota is the school most likely to follow UND's possible move to Division I.

[aff]

I agree to a point. If UND joins the Great West, you've got 3 Dakota schools & three west coast schools (counting SUU). From what I gather from reading various message boards is that alot of fans of Poly & Davis desire keeping the GWFC viable and want members to join. I have no idea what the administrations of these universities think, but they're both good football programs that would benefit greatly from an auto-bid. With a GWFC autobid, down the road you could routinely see two, sometimes even three, Great West teams make the playoffs. The west coast schools could open to more expansion later, probably another west coast school (U of San Diego?), which in turn could open the door for another Upper Midwest school (St. Cloud, South Dakota?) Far-fetched? Probably, but I don't think Poly and Davis has as big an aversion to travel to the Dakota's for football as some think. Remember, they're travel expense for all sports except football (Big West members) is miniscule compared to any other GWFC or NCC members.

I agree with you, and I probably should have said that before. If another west coast school was added, that would likely add another place for a former NCC school to join also. The problem will be finding that school though. I think San Diego would make a great addition, but if it gets to the point where the great west has an auto bid, I could see sac state joining, along with joing the the same all sports conference that Cal Davis is in.

[bincitysioux]

I agree with you, and I probably should have said that before. If another west coast school was added, that would likely add another place for a former NCC school to join also. The problem will be finding that school though. I think San Diego would make a great addition, but if it gets to the point where the great west has an auto bid, I could see sac state joining, along with joing the the same all sports conference that Cal Davis is in.

That would make so much sense for Sac. State (who we all know has an aversion to travel) and the Big West (bringing membership to 10). But how often do things that make sense happen in the world of NCAA athletics?

[bincitysioux]

My guess is that if the Mid Con takes NDSU and SDSU, you'll see UND and then USD declaring their exploritory year to be 2007-2008 with the Mid Con/Great West picking them both up in 2008-09.

Great West:

NDSU

UND

SDSU

USD

Cal Poly

Cal Davis

Mid Con West:

NDSU

UND

SDSU

USD

SUU

UVSC

Mid Con East:

ORU

UMKC

Oakland

West Ill

IPUPI

IPFW

(assuming SUU drops football, Centenary leaves or gets kicked out)

What is the advantage to a split-division conference that does not sponsor football?

[aff]

What is the advantage to a split-division conference that does not sponsor football?

Yeah, I would agree too, once the midcon is at 10, there done. Determining the league winner would be a nightmare every year, since not all teams would play each other every season.

[bincitysioux]

Yeah, I would agree too, once the midcon is at 10, there done. Determining the league winner would be a nightmare every year, since not all teams would play each other every season.

Well I don't see a problem with 12 teams versus 10 teams, and I have no idea about the Mid-Cons expansion intentions. I just don't understand two divisions for a non-football conference. If you had 12 teams you'd just have 22 conference basketball games. My question is does the split-division format benefit any sports other than football?

[bincitysioux]

Question: If a transitional school like NDSU or SDSU is admitted into a conference with an autobid, what happens if one of the transition schools wins the conference title? Does the 2nd place team or highest ranked non-transition team get the automatic bid?

Question #2: Why is Chicago St. leaving the Mid-Con? I understand that they are in some hot water with some NCAA violations, but why voluntarily leave the conference? Did the Mid-Con ask them to leave?

[Sioux-cia]

Question #2: Why is Chicago St. leaving the Mid-Con? I understand that they are in some hot water with some NCAA violations, but why voluntarily leave the conference? Did the Mid-Con ask them to leave?

Sounds like 'geography' is the reason for both Chicago St and Valparaiso's departures.

http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...9/APS/604191227

Chicago State president Elnora Daniel said in a statement that the university will seek membership in a new conference that reflects its evolving institutional profile, which includes expansion and enhanced "access to other metropolitan communities."

http://collegesportsinfo.com/blog/2006/05/...zon-league.html

Valparaiso will make the move from the Mid-Continent Conference based partly on the geographic benefits of entering the Horizon League.

[star2city]

My point is that NDSU and SDSU can schedule those schools and save massive amounts of money OUT OF CONFERENCE. Why would NDSU and SDSU thow away guarunteed games against the california schools, when they can get out of conference games against the old NCC anyway? There's nothing for NDSU and SDSU to gain by admitting those schools. They will have games against them anyway, plus an added advantage over those schools of having a conference. Tell me one benefit that the SU's have by seeing any of the other NCC schools in the great west besides the first one to move up. There aren't any. They would be simply replacing Cal Davis and Cal Poly with Mankato, USD, and St. Cloud. The same schools they are currently trying to move away from. The SU's have a good think going right now with the great west. Why would they give up probably the two most competitive and potential filled schools in the conference, to admit three schools that aren't even sure if they can fund a full alotment of scholarships? Theres absolutely no advantage to it for either school. On top of that, they would both be losing a large recruiting area in pretty much the entire western united states, only to have more schools in minnesota to compete against. Don't believe me? Look how many arizona kids SDSU has signed. How many western kids are on NDSU's roster? Tell me one advantage the SU's gain by having the old NCC admitted to the great west? They certainly don't owe any of those schools a favor after their nice boycott during the toughest years of the transition.

There's one spot in the great west open right now. The first school to move will take, after that, everyone else is screwed.

Aff:

As with most topics, your hope that SDSU supercedes other area schools is affecting your ability to comprehend some significant issues. (With all those post-graduate degrees you've completed, one would think logic would be a stronger point ) . The Great West is a holding tank for conference-less football schools. Because its down to five schools, every Great West school has had major struggles with scheduling schools. SUU only is playing 10 games because of only four conference guaranteed games and two of those games ware against DII or NAIA schools. UC-Davis and Cal Poly (as well as NDSU and SDSU) had major struggles filling their schedule. With the Southland gaining more football-playing members and DIA taking on more DIAA games, open dates against other DIAA teams are a rare commodity. The Great West will take any and all comers up to at least eight schools.

[star2city]

Mid Con West:

NDSU

UND

SDSU

USD

SUU

UVSC

Mid Con East:

ORU

UMKC

Oakland

West Ill

IPUPI

IPFW

(assuming SUU drops football, Centenary leaves or gets kicked out)

This would never happen with UND, USD, and UVSC still as transitional members and NDSU and SDSU as non-core NCAA members. For maintaining its autobid, the MidCon will do everything possible to keep every existing core school - that includes Centenary.

As far as the MidCon being transformed into a new "NCC", any such transformation would be a 15+ year transformation.

[MplsBison]

Fully agree Star2.

Aff simply doesn't want USD to get into the conference.

Nothing more that sickheaded, blind hatred of the other school in the state.

Right, as if the GWFC is going to say "WHOA! We've got six members now! We're not going to consider anyone now!".

BS.

Double BS.

Davis and Poly are great members. I hope they decide to stay.

If traveling to Grand Forks, Fargo, Brookings, and Vermillion every two years is too much for their athletic budget, so be it. Good luck as an I-AA independent.

And the real truth is that once their stadiums are fully upgraded, Davis and Poly are probably out of I-AA anyway. They'll be in the WAC with Sac State and San Jose State.

And SUU is going to drop football probably after the 2007 season.

Hello USD! (that's U South Dakota, not U San Diego)

[MplsBison]

For maintaining its autobid, the MidCon will do everything possible to keep every existing core school - that includes Centenary.

They have seven core members right now (after Chi State and Valpo leave) and IPFW will replace Centenary.

They'll still have seven core members (SUU, UMKC, IUPUI, IPFW, WIU, ORU, Oakland).

As far as the MidCon being transformed into a new "NCC", any such transformation would be a 15+ year transformation.

NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD does not equal the NCC.

It merely equals the top public schools (IE, the dakota flagships) from the old NCC.

If you want to start talking about Saint Cloud and Mankato, then maybe that's 15+ years, sure.

But UND and USD will declare 07-08 as exploritory with the Great West picking them up in 08-09 and the Mid Con picking them up that same year or a couple years later.

[star2city]

Question: If a transitional school like NDSU or SDSU is admitted into a conference with an autobid, what happens if one of the transition schools wins the conference title? Does the 2nd place team or highest ranked non-transition team get the automatic bid?

For football, the conference generally designates the transitional schools is not eligible, so the "conference" champion is the school with the best record among conference schools not in transition.

Question #2: Why is Chicago St. leaving the Mid-Con? I understand that they are in some hot water with some NCAA violations, but why voluntarily leave the conference? Did the Mid-Con ask them to leave?

Supposedly the NCAA hammer is coming down on them. There is also an outside chance that the MEAC will invite them later, even though Chicago is far outside its Maryland to Florida geography. The MEAC, which is a conference of Historically Black Schools (as is Chicago St), is possibly considering going to 16 teams, and then splitting five years down the road to get two autobids. Winston-Salem St, North Carolina Central, and Savannah St are some of the other schools that may get an invite.

[star2city]

They have seven core members right now (after Chi State and Valpo leave) and IPFW will replace Centenary.

They'll still have seven core members (SUU, UMKC, IUPUI, IPFW, WIU, ORU, Oakland).

And everyone of those core schools wants out, now. When any one of those leaves, the MidCon, for all intents and purposes, will be destroyed. The MidCon has to have at least eight core members, and preferably nine, so it can buy time (for 2016-7), when SDSU would qualify as a core member.

Remember the transition is really two major periods: five years in transition to become post-season eligible and another eight years before becoming a "Core Division I" member. Therefore, for 13 years, a school in transition from DII to DI is of no value to an established conference for maintaining its basketball autobid.

NDSU, UND, SDSU, USD does not equal the NCC.

It merely equals the top public schools (IE, the dakota flagships) from the old NCC.

If you want to start talking about Saint Cloud and Mankato, then maybe that's 15+ years, sure.

But UND and USD will declare 07-08 as exploritory with the Great West picking them up in 08-09 and the Mid Con picking them up that same year or a couple years later.

Don't count on USD declaring any exploratory year. SDSU declared two weeks before its exporatory season began, why wouldn't UND declare 2 months before and pay the NCC fine? At this point, mvoing up the DI transition one year is well worth the $25,000 NCC fine.

[aff]

You guys are right, Cal Davis and Cal Poly are all for flying to the Dakotas four or five times a year.

Starcity, that doesnt even make sense. If the ex-NCC schools are D-IAA, then the great west schools can schedule them anytime they want OOC. What advantage is there to tying the cali schools into coming to the dakotas four or five times a year. If they want more games with those schools, they can get them. So why should they be added to the great west? Do you really think that the california schools want to be in the ex-NCC? No, and theyll drop out before they are. If youre NDSU or SDSU, who do you want in your conference, cal poly and cal davis, who have been great transition partners, or the ex-NCC who screwed you? Think about it.

God, I didnt even say UND wasnt going to be in.

I think your guys love of the old NCC is blinding you to the obvious. The great west doesnt have an obligation to every school moving up. It was created by the current schools to help the current schools.

[aff]

Fully agree Star2.

Aff simply doesn't want USD to get into the conference.

Nothing more that sickheaded, blind hatred of the other school in the state.

Right, as if the GWFC is going to say "WHOA! We've got six members now! We're not going to consider anyone now!".

BS.

Double BS.

Davis and Poly are great members. I hope they decide to stay.

If traveling to Grand Forks, Fargo, Brookings, and Vermillion every two years is too much for their athletic budget, so be it. Good luck as an I-AA independent.

And the real truth is that once their stadiums are fully upgraded, Davis and Poly are probably out of I-AA anyway. They'll be in the WAC with Sac State and San Jose State.

And SUU is going to drop football probably after the 2007 season.

Hello USD! (that's U South Dakota, not U San Diego)

Oh my God, yes I am so against a school that I have a degree from. I cant believe I even have to argue that.

So USD is moving up pretty soon, huh? Theres so many reasons its not going to happen I can even start to go over them. Heres some things to look up, get back me on it.

1. Whats USDs athletic budget?

2. Whats USDs proportion of male and female populations, which dictate title nine scholarship levels.

3. Whats USDs current facility situation.

4. How likely is the board of regents to let USD move up, after how much trouble SDSU had.

5. How long ago was it that USD had to drop baseball because of a lack of funding.

Wait, Im sure I just made those up because Im sooooooooooooooooooo jealous, and such a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig SDSU fan! Yeah SDSU LOL.

Mplsbison, you should go talk some more about how D-II is going to disapear, that was a brilliant topic on the NDSU board. Starcity, you really want to side with him on this? I mean come on, you usually have pretty good arguments, but I would be a little worried if I was agreeing with mlpsbison about anything.

[star2city]

You guys are right, Cal Davis and Cal Poly are all for flying to the Dakotas four or five times a year.

Starcity, that doesnt even make sense. If the ex-NCC schools are D-IAA, then the great west schools can schedule them anytime they want OOC. What advantage is there to tying the cali schools into coming to the dakotas four or five times a year. If they want more games with those schools, they can get them. So why should they be added to the great west? Do you really think that the california schools want to be in the ex-NCC? No, and theyll drop out before they are. If youre NDSU or SDSU, who do you want in your conference, cal poly and cal davis, who have been great transition partners, or the ex-NCC who screwed you? Think about.

God, I didnt even say UND wasnt going to be in.

I think your guys love of the old NCC is blinding you to the obvious. The great west doesnt have an obligation to every school moving up. It was created by the current schools to help the current schools.

So why do Central Washington and Western Washington fly to the Dakotas and Minnesota three times a year now? Because they have no other choice in order to get DII competition, other than playing a double or triple round robin with Humboldt and W Oregon.

Davis and Poly are in the same predicament. If St. Cloud wanted into the Great West, Davis, Poly, and SUU would be yes votes because they badly need the guaranteed games: there is no one else. NDSU and SDSU could very well vote against them, just to keep SCSU down a notch below them, like you want.

[MplsBison]

Exactly.

It's so simple.

Poly and Davis need games. The end.

The GWFC teams can play Poly and Davis OOC anytime they want too!

[aff]

So why do Central Washington and Western Washington fly to the Dakotas and Minnesota three times a year now? Because they have no other choice in order to get DII competition, other than playing a double or triple round robin with Humboldt and W Oregon.

Davis and Poly are in the same predicament. If St. Cloud wanted into the Great West, Davis, Poly, and SUU would be yes votes because they badly need the guaranteed games: there is no one else. NDSU and SDSU could very well vote against them, just to keep SCSU down a notch below them, like you want.

Davis and Poly have OOC games with the big sky. Who do the Washington schools have? The NCC has the closest games to them, so they would be going there anyway. This way they have guarunteed games. Poly and Davis on the other hand, dont have to come to the dakotas as games against, NAU, Sac State, EWU, Montana, Montana State, UNC, etc. would all be closer. And thats not including the I-A money games that both schools want to schedule. The cali schools dont need to come here, but once a season that gets you two games works out pretty well for them.

[aff]

Exactly.

It's so simple.

Poly and Davis need games. The end.

The GWFC teams can play Poly and Davis OOC anytime they want too!

What? Pretty sure both schools were just fine before the great west even existed, so they dont NEED games in minnesota to survive.

[MplsBison]

1. Whats USDs athletic budget?

Who cares?

When has an athletic budget stopped any school from moving up?

Think Savannah State except with a conference invite (GWFC/Mid Con).

2. Whats USDs proportion of male and female populations, which dictate title nine scholarship levels.

Is it the least relavent question when it comes to moving up.

Is USD title IX complient now? Yes.

Why wouldn't they be when they move up?

3. Whats USDs current facility situation.

Need a new arena.

4. How likely is the board of regents to let USD move up, after how much trouble SDSU had.

USD is being forced to move up by the demise of the NCC (UND moving up, UNO going to the MIAA). There is no other choice. To hell with the regents if they can't see that.

5. How long ago was it that USD had to drop baseball because of a lack of funding.

Since when does not having a baseball team mean that you can't be DI?

Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Idaho State, Wyoming, Colorado State, Utah State, Weber State...

should I list more?

Mplsbison, you should go talk some more about how D-II is going to disapear, that was a brilliant topic on the NDSU board.

There is no such topic on any bison board.

There is a topic I started where I asked the board what it would think if DII would be closed off.

But there certainly is no topic where I announced that DII is done.

[aff]

Who cares?

When has an athletic budget stopped any school from moving up?

Think Savannah State except with a conference invite (GWFC/Mid Con).

Is it the least relavent question when it comes to moving up.

Is USD title IX complient now? Yes.

Why wouldn't they be when they move up?

Need a new arena.

USD is being forced to move up by the demise of the NCC (UND moving up, UNO going to the MIAA). There is no other choice. To hell with the regents if they can't see that.

Since when does not having a baseball team mean that you can't be DI?

Montana, Montana State, Idaho, Idaho State, Wyoming, Colorado State, Utah State, Weber State...

should I list more?

There is no such topic on any bison board.

There is a topic I started where I asked the board what it would think if DII would be closed off.

But there certainly is no topic where I announced that DII is done.

OMG. Well, after that incredible response, I think I'm beat. I'll resign from this topic now. Its not every day every point I make is responded to with nonsense. I mean, come on, you just asked me why their current budget matters? Why "they're title nine now, why wouldn't they be when they move up"? You clearly don't understand my point about the baseball team being dropped (Hint: It falls under finances, which apprently don't matter). You used Savannah state as a model for them? Its just mind blowing.

[Cratter]

What? Pretty sure both schools were just fine before the great west even existed, so they dont NEED games in minnesota to survive.

Davis has only been a DIAA school since 2003. So really how long could they have been "just fine before the great west"?

The Great West is a temporary league for all members until they find something better. As witnessed by it already losing members. More than half the members of the GWFC were D2 a few short years ago, so if UND was to join them, it would be playing the same teams.

[Cratter]

Back to the original topic of this thread about USD and SCSU:

This is how much weight UND carries in the NCC,

I don