Why do we want to honor the Sioux nation?

[Chewey]

You are not a racist at all. The onus of racism is on those who invoke the idea; they are the racists. If someone is offended, that's too damn bad. Grow up and get a thicker skin.

[Sioux-cia]

Seems to me you are doing exactly what the NCAA is doing, making yourself judge and jury as to a person being racist just like the NCAA is doing so considering the University hostile and abusive. You can have the opinion that the past is just that, the past, and we are living in this country as Americans--period. Entitlements only keep us divided. I tend to believe in the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I don't recall in that Inaugural speech, "Unless you are a group that has been wronged in the past." Hope this doesn't make me racist.

The NC$$ is telling us we have to do as they do, think as they think or else suffer the consequences. If you read my post you'll note that I clearly state,

Sorry if I offended you but that's my opinion and no one is going to change it. I would never presume to change your mind on this or any other issue.

If you read my first post in this thread you will also see that I say,

we should help them help themselves

. I don't think that means we're living in the past. It means that as a country, as decent people, as caring, compassionate people who care for our fellow human beings, we have a responsibilty to help those in need. I don't demand you feel the same.

Unlike the NC$$, I do not expect persons to change what they think or what they are because I say so. Freedom of speech is something that the NC$$ is attempting to deprive us of. You or anyone else can do and say what they wish as long as it doesn't incite violence. I just don't have to like it.

[Sioux-cia]

Very insightful, thanks. I understand the errors of my ways. It's all better now.

[tnt]

Did you or did you not imply that people expressing the belief against entitlement are racist? I doubt you appreciate being called a racist because you don't think the logo is offensive. How is that any different from the anti-logo people who make that leap? The racist card is played much too liberally in society today simply because that is an easy reaction to someone who disagrees on minority issues. One could say that the person making accusations of racism without actually knowing the person is a form of racism in itself. And no, I'm not calling you a racist.

[Sioux-cia]

I responded to this>>

they need get over it and get on with their lives instead of pissing away everything theyve been given with alcohol and/or drugs. it seems to me the only thing i ever hear about native people is, i want, i need, i cant. if they change their damn attitudes, get some motivation to be somebody and try to live the best they can, maybe, just maybe they can actually become a productive race.

(emphasis is mine)

with this>>

I believe the views expressed are expressed by persons who are rasicsts and are often used by some as a reason to hate another group of human beings.

Generalizations such as these about an entire ethnic group of people is offensive to me and I do believe that statements such as these are racist. If I had seen any 'hostile and abusive' behavior tied to the Sioux name and logo, I would not support it. I believe it is used with respect, honor and dignity. I do find statements like the one above hostile and abusive. Racism is alive and well living in our midst as self rightous citizens.

My opinion. You are entitled to your own.

[SiouxMeNow]

the bottom line of this whole thing is...UND blew it back when the Ralph was being built. Let me explain...

Remember after the gift was announced and the Ralph was going up? The whole nickname issue got stirred up then BUT we had allies who were on our side. (Eric Enno ring a bell?) They helped bring in tribal elders to talk with athletes about Sioux history and traditions with UND's "promise" to build stronger ties with the reservations.

I remember Ambrose Little Ghost talking to a big assembly about traditions and waching Jeremiah Holy Bull do his fancy dancing before several BB and Hky games that was VERY well received - it appeared to be the start of a real educational connection! Then as soon as the media heat came off, UND officials lost interest in sustaining any long term relationship with the Spirit Lake tribe...that was the mistake!

If UND had solidified and expanded their connections and seriously promoted the interest that was out there then - they might now have had the REAL backing of at least one tribe that the NC$$ considers ROCK SOLID instead of the wishy-washy "uh - okay I guess" resolutions they're trying to push as "resolutions of support" now. They should have seen this coming and done more to expand the relationship when they had the opportunity!

So I guess my point is we have no one to blame but ourselves...

[PCM]

So I guess my point is we have no one to blame but ourselves...

I think the problem was that UND's administration might have assumed too much. Most people don't know that there's a great deal of contact and activity between UND and the tribes on a day-to-day basis as a result of all the programs the university operates that are specifically intended for American Indians. I'd venture to say that all that activity, communincation and contact dwarfs anything that Florida State, Central Michigan and Utah do for or with American Indians in their respective states.

I suspect there was an assumption that because of all those programs and all that activity, the tribal leaders would recognize and understand that UND was reaching out to their tribes and doing a great deal of very good work that actually makes a difference on the reservations. And, really, those efforts should be worth a great deal more than a cultural education course for athletes because they have a far greater impact on the everyday lives of Native Americans.

I'm not saying that the cultural education course wasn't a good idea and shouldn't have been pursued, but relative to other programs, it might have seemed less important. It's also important to understand that there is a core group of people on campus who actively work against efforts such as the cultural education course, which made it very difficult to succeed.

[Sioux-cia]

PCM points out what I noted as part of my answer to this thread's question

The University of North Dakota is one of the few institutions in the country who have programs to help Native Americans fight these enemies. Indians into Medicine, Nursing, Psychology, etc and new programs such as Elder Health and Health promotion. American Indians were almost entirely responsible for the grant money that makes these programs possible. They have the choice as to where to house these programs. They chose the University of North Dakota.

We know that the number of American Indian naysayers to the name and logo is small as witnessed by the number of protestors and the higher than any other number of Native American students who attend UND as opposed to any other school in ND or SD. The number of Native American students is encouraging not only as suppport for the name and logo but for the Native American population as well. These students are role models for others in their tribes.

Three absolutes that the Spirit Lake resolution includes are

1. ....a policy of zero tolerance when it comes to racist activity

2. ... Kupchella establish a cultlural awareness course for all students,

3. .... since the University is representing the "Fighting Sioux" the students be made aware of the unique culture they are representing.

So while the contact between the U and the tribes may be there, I don't know how much the U has done regarding #2 and #3.

We shouldn't debate whether or not we agree with the requests, the University agreed to the terms of the resolution when it accepted Spirit Lake's non-opposition to the use of the name and logo.

[larsensa]

It seems odd to me that UND has had since August 5, 2005 and many years prior to garner the support of the Sioux tribes in North Dakota and surrounding areas and they were unable to do so. The recent letters from Standing Rock were like an E-Bay auction with the letters being like bids arriving in the final hours with Fool Bear sending his in only to be beat out by Ron His Horse is Thunder's letter in the end. If UND was going to get support it had to come way before the final hours and they didn't get it. Is this a failure on the part of Kupchella? It seems it might be to me. Maybe UND will, or would, never be able to change the opinions of those we need/needed to appease the NCAA?

Today I thought about how this situation would impact me by substituting the Sioux for something that is important to me. As a Christian I thought about how I would feel if an atheist school had Jesus as their logo and mascot without the support of Christians. I wondered how I would feel if some of the opposing team's fans yelled cheers like Jesus sucks and Juck the Fesus and stuff like that. Some made t-shirts of Jesus in offensive positions with the other teams mascot, etc... How would I feel if that atheist team had Jesus, Christian's spiritual leader somewhat similiar to Sitting Bull, on the Cross outside of their arena. While I would see this as a school's right to do, I am pretty sure I would find it hostile and abusive towards Christians. I know this is a pretty extreme example but this is about as close as I can get to understanding what it may feel like for those that are opposed to UND using the Sioux name. My Christian faith is one of the only things that I could think of that I care about enough to be offended if it was being represented in a way I didn't want it to be.

I don't think this issue is something the NCAA should be involved with but I do think it is something the Sioux nation has a right to have an opinion about. Just as I would think most people would probably expect the support of Christians if an atheist school wanted to use Jesus, Christians, or whatever as it's school mascot and logo I think it is just as important that UND have the support of the Sioux tribes if it wants to continue to use the name. UND doesn't have that support right now and that has left UND with very few options.

[star2city]

Today I thought about how this situation would impact me with something that is important to me. As a Christian I thought about how I would feel if a school had Jesus as their logo and mascot.

You mean like Holy Cross?

I wondered how I would feel if some of the opposing team's fans yelled cheers like Jesus sucks and Juck the Fesus and stuff like that.

Actually, although its not thought of in this way and its usually not organized, many fans already do that: using the Lord's name in vain mixed in with other profanities.

Some made t-shirts of Jesus in offensive positions with the other teams mascot, etc...

Been to an art museum lately? Certain elements of society find smilar expressions perfectly acceptable "as art". Both types are obscene.

and if that team had Jesus, Christians spiritual leader similiar to Sitting Bull, on the Cross outside of their arena how it would make me feel.

Sitting Bull was a warrior and a leader, attributes Christ also has. Arguably, it should actually make you feel more accepted, because of the victory that is meant to be represented, even if it is used imperfectly by imperfect human beings.

[larsensa]

You mean like Holy Cross?

Actually, although its not thought of in this way and its usually not organized, many fans already do that: using the Lord's name in vain mixed in with other profanities.

Been to an art museum lately? Certain elements of society find smilar expressions perfectly acceptable "as art". Both types are obscene.

Sitting Bull was a warrior and a leader, attributes Christ also has. Arguably, it should actually make you feel more accepted, because of the victory that is meant to be represented, even if it is used imperfectly by imperfect human beings.

I had actually just changed my post but you replied before the change was made. I changed the school wanting to use the Jesus mascot,etc... in my example to an atheist school. I made this change to make it more similiar to the UND situation since the majority of students and alum, etc... are not Native American/Sioux.

Holy Cross is a Catholic school so it makes sense they would be called The Crusaders and emphasize the cross, etc.... A Christian college, Wheaton College, in the state I now live changed it's name from The Crusaders to the Thunder because they didn't want to emphasize the things that happened during the Christian Crusades and because the name offended a lot of people I guess.

[PCM]

It seems odd to me that UND has had since August 5, 2005 and many years prior to garner the support of the Sioux tribes in North Dakota and surrounding areas and they were unable to do so.

I can assure you that there is nothing at all odd about it.

The recent letters from Spirit Lake were like an E-Bay auction with the letters being like bids arriving in the final hours with Fool Bear sending his in only to be beat out by Ron His Horse is Thunder's letter in the end.

It was Standing Rock, not Spirit Lake.

I don't think this issue is something the NCAA should be involved with but I do think it is something the Sioux nation has a right to have an opinion about.

Nobody said the Sioux people didn't have the right to an opinion.

Just as I would think most people would probably expect the support of Christians if an atheist school wanted to use Jesus, Christians, or whatever as it's school mascot and logo I think it is just as important that UND have the support of the Sioux tribes if it wants to continue to use the name. UND doesn't have that support right now and that has left UND with very few options.

Your analogy makes no sense. Why would an atheist school use a revered Christian symbol as its nickname or mascot? That's just silly.

It would be best if UND had the support of the Sioux tribes. If the university can't gain that support and believes that keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname would do more harm than good, than it should change the name.

However, as I have pointed out many times before, there are other principles involved that include the precedent set by allowing the NCAA to meddle in the internal affairs of its members, intellectual property rights and the right of free expression. UND must also decide whether to fight the false perception that it's a racist institution or allow the label that the NCAA unfairly has slapped on it to stand.

[larsensa]

I can assure you that there is nothing at all odd about it.

What assurances can you provide me that there is nothing odd about UND not being able to garner the support of the Sioux since August 2005 and before? I am interested in hearing what those assurances are.

Your analogy makes no sense. Why would an atheist school use a revered Christian symbol as its nickname or mascot? That's just silly.

Obviously an atheist school using Jesus as a mascot makes no sense but that wasn't the point. Another example would be: How would you like it if someone took your name and applied it to a cause you don't support and they wouldn't allow you to remove your name from it? How would you feel about it? Something like, PCM is the #1 fan of the Minnesota Gophers or the top advocate for the American Society of Pedophiles or something brutal like that? I am guessing you wouldn't be too happy about it. Again, extreme examples but I am trying to somehow make the point that each of us would be upset if our name was not being used in a way we wanted it to be used. I am starting to think it is just as silly as my analogy that a nearly all white school uses a revered Sioux/Native American symbol as it's nickname or mascot especially because the Sioux don't support UND using it's name at this point in time.

It would be best if UND had the support of the Sioux tribes. If the university can't gain that support and believes that keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname would do more harm than good, than it should change the name.

I think it may be the time to move on. Again, I am not looking forward to the name being changed but I am tired of UND having to go through this every year. This has been going on way too many years. Let's start looking for a new name and get the new traditions going!

However, as I have pointed out many times before, there are other principles involved that include the precedent set by allowing the NCAA to meddle in the internal affairs of its members, intellectual property rights and the right of free expression. UND must also decide whether to fight the false perception that it's a racist institution or allow the label that the NCAA unfairly has slapped on it to stand.

I totally agree with this point. The NCAA ticks me off. I am not sure why it matters to them whether a tribe supports the school or not in any of these cases. The average joe sports fan watching a Florida Seminoles game isn't going to go, isn't it nice that the Seminoles have the support of the Seminole tribe? I am sure glad that UND had to get rid of their logo since the Sioux didn't support UND using their name, etc... Average joe fan isn't even going to know the difference or care for that matter. If the NCAA considers Native American imagery hostile and abusive it should all be considered hostile and abusive. It should be black and white. Either they all go, or they all stay. If even one stays and the NCAA has this rule it is still hostile and abusive that even one college team will play in games with Native American logos, etc.. I hope that UND takes the NCAA to court and wins the case and then decides what is in the best interest of the school and Sioux on it's own terms instead of the NCAA's terms.

Something else I thought about today is that I don't really think that most Sioux fans really think about honoring the Sioux tribes when they support the Sioux name and logo. I think most of us like the logo and all the traditions and history the name has with UND. We think it is a cool name and a cool logo and I think that is really about all there is too it. I don't think most people watching a Sioux hockey game are sitting there thinking, man, those Sioux sure were a great tribe. I am so happy we have their name. It is such an honor for us to be associated with that tribe and I can't wait to visit their reservations. I don't think many are thinking, it would be such an honor to go hang out at the Sioux's reservation and have dinner, etc... Maybe I am wrong but I know that I have rarely spent time thinking about the Sioux nation when I am watching the best team in college hockey history!!!!

[HockeyMom]

I don't think many are thinking, it would be such an honor to go hang out at the Sioux's reservation and have dinner, etc...

You should try Wednesday night seafood buffet at Spirit Lake........excellent!!!!!

[PCM]

Obviously an atheist school using Jesus as a mascot makes no sense but that wasn't the point. Another example would be: How would you like it if someone took your name and applied it to a cause you don't support and they wouldn't allow you to remove your name from it?

It's not the same thing. Obviously, I have a right to determine how my name is used, and I'm quite certain that the courts would find in my favor if I sued someone for libeling or slandering me. The problem is, nobody owns the word "Sioux." It's not even a word derived from the Dakota, Lakota or Nakota language.

In any event, what you describe is already being done to me. I'm of Scandinavian and Irish descent. There are schools with sports teams named the Vikings and Fighting Irish. The NCAA doesn't care if those names are offensive to me. Myles Brand doesn't care if they stereotype me. He doesn't care if such names and images cause psychological harm to my children.

The NCAA says its policy on nicknames applies to all races, ethnic groups and nationalities, but then applies the policy to American Indian names only and then to a select few schools with those names.

[PCM]

What assurances can you provide me that there is nothing odd about UND not being able to garner the support of the Sioux since August 2005 and before? I am interested in hearing what those assurances are.

How much experience do you have in dealing with the tribes? I can assure you that based on my experience, gaining tribal support is not as simple as you seem to think it is.

[PCM]

I don't think many are thinking, it would be such an honor to go hang out at the Sioux's reservation and have dinner, etc... Maybe I am wrong but I know that I have rarely spent time thinking about the Sioux nation when I am watching the best team in college hockey history!!!!

I've done that. I had dinner at the Turtle Mountain Reservation the week before last.

[larsensa]

It's not the same thing. Obviously, I have a right to determine how my name is used, and I'm quite certain that the courts would find in my favor if I sued someone for libeling or slandering me. The problem is, nobody owns the word "Sioux." It's not even a word derived from the Dakota, Lakota or Nakota language.

It is not entirely the same thing but sorta the same thing. None of the Sioux nation support UND using the name and they have had this view for quite a long time. UND hasn't listened to them in my opinion. In regards to the Sioux name not being owned by anyone, I think you should take a look at the links to see where the name came from and understand the history. They didn't create the name but they started to go by the name once it was created. It seems they kinda use it like say the automaker GM does as the parent company while there are many divisions of GM cars like Cadillac, Chevy, Buick, etc...Who else uses the name Sioux other than UND but the Sioux Nation?! http://www.americanindians.com/Sioux.htmhttp://www.standingrock.org/history.htm

In any event, what you describe is already being done to me. I'm of Scandinavian and Irish descent. There are schools with sports teams named the Vikings and Fighting Irish. The NCAA doesn't care if those names are offensive to me. Myles Brand doesn't care if they stereotype me. He doesn't care if such names and images cause psychological harm to my children. The NCAA says its policy on nicknames applies to all races, ethnic groups and nationalities, but then applies the policy to American Indian names only and then to a select few schools with those names.

I totally agree and think Myles Brand needs to spend a lot less time philosophizing and think about how inconsistent and stupid the NCAA has been in the way they have applied THEIR rules. They shouldn't be involved in this in the first place but since they decided to get involved they need to pull their heads out of their butts and read their own rules. Trust me, I am ticked at the NCAA for this and think it is a joke. This is why I hope UND takes them to court and kicks their asses in the lawsuit. I have no clue why they only chose to address American Indians in this policy: http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/governance...a_ec-gender.htm especially when there are many other ethnic groups and races that should've been included like the ones you mentioned. It is a bunch of BS tht they cherry picked and went for the easiest targets.

I went to the NCAA's ABOUT SECTION on their website and read this:

The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) is a voluntary organization through which the nation's colleges and universities govern their athletics programs. It comprises more than 1,250 institutions, conferences, organizations and individuals committed to the best interests, education and athletics participation of student-athletes.

What a crock of crap. It is obvious the nation's colleges and universities are not governing their programs if the NCAA can get away with the crap they pulled on UND and the others. THe NCAA is governing and I wish all the other teams would help UND by not letting the NCAA get away with it!

I think the NCAA needs to change their ABOUT SECTION to the following:

The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) is a voluntary A FORCED BUREAUCRACY WHICH SCHOOLS MUST BELONG TO IF THEY WANT TO COMPETE IN SPORTS trough which the nation's colleges and universities govern their A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH AN INCONSISTENT SOCIAL AGENDA GOVERN THEIR athletics programs. It comprises more than 1,250 institutions, conferences, organizations and individuals committed to the best interests FORCED SOCIAL AGENDA OF THE NCAA BUREAUCRACY UPON education and athletics participation of student-athletes.

The NCAA needs to be slapped around a bit I think. UND needs to work directly with the Sioux nation without the interference of the NCAA. I hope the best case scenario takes place, UND kicks some NCAA ass in court and the Sioux nation decides they want UND to continue to use their name.

If the Sioux nation continues to deny our request I do think we need to respect that, for them and for UND as well, for the reasons I stated in the beginning of the thread. Let's find someone or something else that would feel honored by the honor or something like that.... unless it is something that can't talk then we would have to assume it was honored by it!?

[tony]

I've done that. I had dinner at the Turtle Mountain Reservation the week before last.

Turtle Mountain = Chippewa, not Sioux.

[THETRIOUXPER]

Turtle Mountain = Chippewa, not Sioux.

Relationships need to be established and built regardless of which tribe it is. This situation affects all Native Americans as a whole as far as I'm concerened. It's either good for all or not good for all. That's why granting an exemption to fla. st. and not granting for IL, and ND is so ridiculous.

[PCM]

Turtle Mountain = Chippewa, not Sioux.

Thanks for the information, Tony, but I knew that. Perhaps I should have been more clear by saying that not only have I done what larsena suggested, but I've also done it on other reservations besides Sioux reservations. Many, many UND employees have.

[PCM]

None of the Sioux nation support UND using the name and they have had this view for quite a long time.

That's not true.

UND hasn't listened to them in my opinion.

It's your opinion, but it's not based on fact.

In regards to the Sioux name not being owned by anyone, I think you should take a look at the links to see where the name came from and understand the history.

Thanks for the advice. I have posted this link in past threads, which provides the most comprehensive explanation for the origins of the word "Sioux" of any that I've seen.

If the Sioux nation continues to deny our request I do think we need to respect that, for them and for UND as well, for the reasons I stated in the beginning of the thread. Let's find someone or something else that would feel honored by the honor or something like that.... unless it is something that can't talk then we would have to assume it was honored by it!?

I think it's important for UND to establish that it has the legal right to use the name. I think it's important for UND to fight the "hostile and abusive" label that the NCAA has unfairly slapped on the university, a label that inaccurately portrays UND has a racist institution. I think it's important that the NCAA be challenged for operating outside the rules that govern it and beyond the function for which it was established.

If we do all that and the Sioux tribes continue to oppose UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, then the university should seriously consider a change.

[The Sicatoka]

I think it's important for UND to establish that it has the legal right to use the name. I think it's important for UND to fight the "hostile and abusive" label that the NCAA has unfairly slapped on the university, a label that inaccurately portrays UND has a racist institution. I think it's important that the NCAA be challenged for operating outside the rules that govern it and beyond the function for which it was established.

If we do all that and the Sioux tribes continue to oppose UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, then the university should seriously consider a change.

Yup. Yup. Yup. And yup.

I'm becoming of a mind that says UND needs to take this to court to prove the issues of:

- breech of contract (by how the NCAA did this)

- free expression (read my signature quote)

And then, at that point, with that victory in hand, look around and decide whether or not the University wants to continue this saga in the ever-changing political winds of tribal (and general) politics.

[ScottM]

I think it's important for UND to establish that it has the legal right to use the name. I think it's important for I'm becoming of a mind that says UND needs to take this to court to prove the issues of:

- breech of contract (by how the NCAA did this)

- free expression (read my signature quote)

And then, at that point, with that victory in hand, look around and decide whether or not the University wants to continue this saga in the ever-changing political winds of tribal (and general) politics.

I tend to agree. The NC$$'s labeling of UND' use, and vis-a-vis UND, of the name/logo as "hostile or abusive" is nothing short of defamation. UND effectively has to go to court to clear its name and reputation, as well dealing with NC$$'s own idiocy in stumbling over its own rules and procedures. What eventually happens to the name/logo is secondary.

[larsensa]

That's not true.

It's your opinion, but it's not based on fact.

I did speak in too broad of terms when I made these comments. In terms of Sioux Nation support I am not aware of any support UND has in writing though. Does UND have anything other than the letter from Archie Fool Bear which was basically struck down that indicates support from the tribes? Without letters of support, I don't think we do have ANY support which is why I made my previous comment.

When I said UND hasn't listened to them I was referring to the fact that the Sioux have been fairly unsuportive of UND using the name for many years and have been asking UND not to keep the name but UND has kept the name and logo, etc.. anyway. This is what I meant by UND not listening.

I had a new thought today about this issue. Why did the NCAA not put the Minnesota Golden Gophers on the list? I am sure if Gophers could talk they would tell the NCAA that they feel like it has been HOSTILE AND ABUSIVE towards them to have their name associated with that hockey team!!