NDSU/SDSU moving forward on Big Sky

[WYOBISONMAN]

The following article was in today's Fargo Forum. Despite UND's attempts to derail the move to D1 by NDSU, NDSU and SDSU are moving towards joining the Big Sky.

Big Sky to discuss expansion

By Jeff Kolpack

The Forum - 01/22/2003

The Big Sky Conference is serious about North Dakota State and South Dakota State. The league has set a special expansion meeting for Feb. 20.

Presidents and athletic directors from all eight schools will be present, according to the Big Sky commissioner

[The Sicatoka]

You must have missed this "attempt to derail."

[lawkota]

Despite UND's attempts to derail the move to D1 by NDSU, NDSU and SDSU are moving towards joining the Big Sky.

Yawn. This "UND is always trying to bring us down" attitude from some of our neighbors to the south is really getting tiresome. Tell us please, how has UND attempted to derail the Bison efforts? Hard evidence, not hyperbole and conjecture. Simply deciding to take a separate path is not sabotage. But hey, if a dependence on conspiracy is what gets you through the day, by all means, continue to bask in your paranoia.

BTW, good luck to NDSU - I really hope the Sioux will be joining them in D-I.

[WYOBISONMAN]

The most recent attempt to "derail" is HB1356. I know some of my UND Alumn friends have made calls to thier legislators supporting this.

I am glad to hear that some of the UND faithful would like to make the jump with NDSU. There is no question the games I have enjoyed the most are the Bison/Sioux clashes. I hope UND joins us in D1.

[lawkota]

I hate to point out the obvious but "UND alums" do not equal UND. I'm sure you would not want the opinions and actions of all NDSU alumni to be considered official NDSU positions.

Edit - BTW, I know 2 NDSU alums that are against the move and have expressed approval of this bill. By your logic, I guess NDSU is trying to derail itself.

[choyt3]

The most recent attempt to "derail" is HB1356.

[elmduf]

I wish them good luck in joining the Big Sky. I think that joining the Big Sky Conference would be a great choice for a new DI-AA school from the Dakotas. Hopefully, the California schools would leave that conference.....

If UND were going to jump to I-AA, I would hope they would attempt to join the Big Sky Conference. It would be fun to see rivalries with the Montana schools. Although I don't think UND should go I-AA at this time, I would also hope that if NDSU and SDSU go there, they would help bring UND eventually.

[jimdahl]

I wish them good luck in joining the Big Sky.  I think that joining the Big Sky Conference would be a great choice for a new DI-AA school from the Dakotas.  Hopefully, the California schools would leave that conference.....

If UND were going to jump to I-AA, I would hope they would attempt to join the Big Sky Conference.

Though a few of our NDSU detractors argue that NDSU going Big Sky would close the door to UND, I think the opposite is true.

*IF* NDSU and SDSU were accepted, you might as well start holding your breath for Sac State to leave the conference, because it's going to happen unless Wanless pulls off one hell of a turnaround. Any dip below 10, and the conference would likely be open to members that fit geographically, which certainly includes UND if NDSU and SDSU are members. The geography and alliances of the conference would actually favor UND more once NDSU and SDSU were members than the current alliances/geography favors NDSU/SDSU (the Montanas are strong traditional rivals of the Dakotas).

Lots of speculation and crystal ball-work going on there, but I view the Dakotas breaking into the Big Sky as only a good think for UND long-term.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Jim... I think you are dead on in your thoughts about NDSU and SDSU impact on the direction the Big Sky would look for additional expansion. I do know that many in Montana would like to see Wanless and Sac State booted from the conference. The Billings Gazette has had a couple articles recently advocating getting rid of Sac State and getting NDSU and SDSU in.

However, any acceptance of NDSU and SDSU is still a long long ways off.....but I continue to hope. I also am probably pretty biased in that it would bring Bison games MUCH closer to where I live. Fargo is a hell of a long ways from Southwest Wyoming.

[WYOBISONMAN]

By the way.... Rep. Wald (UND 1959) is also a sponsor of HB1356.

[The Sicatoka]

I read the article and what caught my eye is this:

Why is Northern Colorado (right there in the Big Sky geography) not making a play to get into the Big Sky? I guess the same question would apply to Southern Utah as well.

[elmduf]

Why is Northern Colorado (right there in the Big Sky geography) not making a play to get into the Big Sky?

[JBB]

From what Ive been reading Sac State is not leaving the BSC. Their president has stated that they are committed long into the future. Frankly, after what I

[jimdahl]

I agree that SDSU/NDSU aren't particularly likely to actually be admitted to Big Sky (particularly in the near future). Everyone remembers the quote right from the Big Sky web page:

T.J, of Ogden, Utah, asks the Big Sky:

"Is the Big Sky considering adding another school, possibly North Dakota, North Dakota State or even Northern Colorado?"

the Big Sky responds:

"At this time, the Big Sky Conference is not looking to add an additional member. Its membership is satisfied that having an even-numbered membership is better for scheduling purposes. However, the world of collegiate athletics is always changing -- more so out in the west -- and so Conference leaders "never say never," but NCAA Championship ramifications have made it more difficult for a Division I conference to add institutions moving from Division II." "

It's just that you've often tried to taunt us with your scenario in which NDSU goes to Big Sky and that somehow locks UND out. Since that assertion is built on your known bias of hoping UND will whither away and die while NDSU flourishes, I wanted to present the opposite (I think plausible) argument that the ag schools joining Big Sky could actually improve UND's chances of joining in the future.

Both are made up scenarios that require a lot of things to happen that people currently claim won't (the quote above, Sac State or other Western schools leaving or expansion past 10 members, and UND considering D-IAA). I'm just saying NDSU's success wouldn't necessarily be UND's doom.

[WYOBISONMAN]

While it is by no means close to being a done deal, I do think the BSC will give NDSU and SDSU a solid look. NDSU and SDSU do bring the fact that each are THE land grant schools in their respective states. This alone gives credibility to their admission to the conference. Sac State and Portland State are "second tier" schools in California and Oregon. I think it looks much better to have schools like North Dakota State, South Dakota State and Montana State in your conference.

The reality is that from a recognition and prestige perspective I don't think that UNO or Mankato State carry the same prestige in the NCC that do NDSU, UND, SDSU or USD. Because NDSU, UND, SDSU and USD are the premier institutions in thier respective states. When you get out of the region, most people have heard of NDSU or UND, but few have ever heard of Mankato State (or worse yet Minn. State Mankato).

[The Sicatoka]

I think BSC is happy at eight, for now, unless something really changes.

Honestly, I believe their first choices, if they did choose to expand, would be schools that would be easier to bring in in terms of geographics/logistics. My guesses:

Idaho - they went IA recently but are drowning in red ink, would they come back

UC Davis - Sacramento State's neighbor

Northern Colorado - easy geography

Southern Utah - easy geography also

NDSU and SDSU are literally a time zone away from the nearest BSC neighbor. That's not a plus in this case.

One more thought:

Why are they meeting on 02/20/03 in Salt Lake City when SLC isn't a Big Sky city? Well, Spokane, Pocatello, Missoula, Boseman, Portland, and Sacramento are all direct flights on Delta to SLC, Delta's western hub. (Ogden is a short drive away. Flagstaff is the only one that's not.) Remember where I mentioned "logistics"? Delta doesn't fly to Fargo or Sioux Falls (closest to Brookings). Who loves airport connections?

[JBB]

I think that quote is absolutly true and that's why there is a meeting next month. The official position of the BSC is no expansion. Next month we will find out if that is changing. If so the next step will be to process the membership requests from the Dakota Schools. If that is accomplished I dont see any room for UND unless there is some type of Big 10 type scheduling.

There are two ways to look at this: either the question is on the table and the outcome is completely up in the air or the field is well plowed and fertilized and we are just waiting for the harvest. I know thats an agricultural allegory and not hockey but it means the table is already set and the meetings are a formality.

I question if North Dakota is big enough for two DI institutions. UND has stated its position so elequently that I cant believe even the success of NDSU at the DI level would be enough to change its position. NDSU saw the writing on the wall concerning the future of DII. Now that the senario seems to be playing out I think the words of your president should be revisited. He said that UND would be very comfortable in an NCC populated by DI hockey schools and all other sports at the DII level. That's why Berrmidji will probably follow UMD if they can get their arena expanded to 5,000. I think that is a more plausable future for you than a "Johnny-come-lately" DI move up and out of the NCC.

[jimdahl]

If that is accomplished I dont see any room for UND unless there is some type of Big 10 type scheduling.

The Big Sky itself has said there's not currently room for NDSU/SDSU. Your assumption that there will be a change in that policy, but that then there *really* won't be enough room for UND forever is kind of funny. Regardless, I find that entire argument line uninteresting because in the long-run there is no issue of room, but rather of institutional/geographic fit (as the rest of us keep trying to discuss). If your window is long enough, ANY conference is willing to add a member that's a good fit. I struggle to think of a conference that I follow that hasn't had a change in membership in the last 15 years.

The fact is that NDSU/SDSU are currently very poor geographic fits in Big Sky. However, if they were added (and particularly if some Western schools left), all of a sudden a school in Grand Forks now fits pretty well in the geographic footprint of Big Sky. Add to that the similarity of institutions (as WYOBISONMAN pointed out) between Montana, Montana State, NDSU, SDSU, and UND, and all of a sudden UND is a great fit.

I'm the first to admit it would require changes in the stated positions of Big Sky and UND. Frankly, I don't think there's much of a chance of Big Sky adding NDSU so I think UND considering D-IAA is actually the more likely of the changes in my game of "what if".

[WYOBISONMAN]

As to the question of why the meeting for the BSC Presidents is in SLC.....Salt Lake is a central location for all conference members to fly to. Most have either Delta or Skywest serving their respective cities and those airlines fly direct to Salt Lake. Also, remember that Ogden (the home of Weber State) is a northern suburb of Salt Lake City.

I hate to disagree with my fellow partisan JBB, but if NDSU and SDSU get into the Big Sky I do think that Sac State and Portland State may very well exit because it would be clear that the geography of the conference is not looking to the west coast any longer. I do think that may open the door to UND and I think UND probably would look to jump to D1aa and the Big Sky if the opportunity was there.

Remember too that Southern Utah may be a few more mile closer to other BSC schools, but there is no decent airline service and all BSC schools except for Weber would need to fly there. Also, UNC involves flying to Denver and then a bus trip to Greeley. The bottom line is when you have to fly to your conference games the geographic fit issue changes a bit. Fargo has great air service and the logistics of getting a football team to and from Fargo are not at all complicated. As for the timezone issue....I think it is insignificant. We had it with UNC in the NCC and who really even thought about it???

[The Sicatoka]

Time Zones: Imagine a BSC with current members plus NDSU/SDSU: Central, Mountain, and Pacific. That's a bummer for media. West coast game endings may push midnight in the Midwest. Friday games at 7 in the Midwest start when people are still at work on the west coast (if they actually work on Friday afternoon out there ).

Mentioning logistics, doesn't Brookings have the same "bummer" (hour bus ride to/from airport) that Greeley has if you have to fly in?

What city is Southern Utah located in? I've only heard of the school.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Southern Utah is in Cedar City.

[JBB]

SDSU is more convenient than UNA or Southern Utah. Apparently one requires a drive from phoenix and the other from Las Vegas, but maybe thats not all bad! It's a hike to both Portland and Sac State from anywhere in the BSC.

I checked on Expedia. From Bozeman: Sac State, UNA and Portland are further time wize. Ogden is a problem because of the drive (UNA too). At least as far as Sioux Falls to Brookings and a whole lot longer. Its not that easy to get from the SLC airport which is way west of town by the lake, through the city and north a bunch to Ogden. The 2 Montana schools and Idaho make up the core. After that its 6 of 1 half a dozen of another.

I think the BSC is stable. Nobody is leaving but some may join. Idaho will not move down before Wyoming. If they both moved to DIAA ball a new conference would certainly arise including the Dakota Schools, NDSU & SDSU.

North Dakota now has one DI University and that's NDSU. Let's leave it that way and hope for 100 hockey titles in Grand Forks. They have always had a nice little college up there and that's a darn nice town too! Have you see that hockey rink?

[WYOBISONMAN]

Trust me, Wyoming is not even thinkning of moving down. People here would go crazy if they were to leave the Mountain West. And also, Ogden is no much of a drive from the SLC airport as it is a suburb. Maybe a 20 to 25 minute drive.

[JBB]

I agree and it's the same in Idaho. They will not move down, in fact they are one of the most successfull DIA programs in raising revenue. top 20 I think.

There has been some interesting talk elswhere that it could be a unanimous vote in favor of BSC expansion. Reasons cited: The conference wants 2 playoff spots and with 10 teams it will be a much better proposition. DIAA would like more western teams to add balance. Eventually BSC expansion could lead to a new western conference. Travel costs are the biggest hurdle, but all in all that looks like a wash. Most BSC teams travel further than the Dakota Schools now to fill out a rather large 4 game non conference schedule.

Id put Ogden at closer to an hour, but I think we are splitting hairs. Davis is not going to join the BSC, they are headed for the Big West and an independent football schedule, at least for now. UNC is going Mid con and Southern Utah is very hard to get to and Cedar City is small. They dont seem to be a good fit for the BSC institutuionally.

Its all a guess. I certainly dont know but am hoping for the best. At least one of the above senarios looks good for UND if they did decide to abandon principal and make the move behind NDSU.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

I'm not sure how a larger conference membership will guarantee the BSC anything. Could you explain more on that front? If you are talking basketball, the tournament looks at RPIs and other analytic rankings. Adding teams guarantees nothing. Football? Don't they look at power rankings as well? More teams doesn't seem to guarantee them anything on that front.

Anyone waiting for Wyoming to move down is in for a long wait. Idaho? Who knows. They're probably due to be hurt with the NCAA IA committee changing the rules on "guarantee games" and "required home games" in FB. That won't be good for their finances.

At least Ogden (Weber State) has a decent airport near by being a suburb of SLC. In terms of time you both could be right. Every try to get from MSP airport to Brooklyn Park? It can be anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour.

A unanimous vote? Personally, I'd put the same money down on 'yea' as 'nay'. I'm thinking Portland State and Sac State aren't going to like the travel that far east. Who knows where the rest of them are on the issue. I guess that'll become apparent in a few weeks.