To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[KnowtheFacts]

[Bacardio]

Kracker or KnowtheFacts -

I ask you AGAIN to supply a link to the evidence of your claim that the Sioux nation has formally requested a name change.

I do know that certain localized tribes in SD and NE have, but I have found nothing on the National Sioux tribe or the ND localized tribes it was originally named for, asking for a name change.

You continuiously claim you have all this evidence, but you NEVER support it. The Sioux tribe members I talk to, have no idea what you are talking about. I will also guarentee you that the Lakota I talk to are MUCH more educated then you are, so don't hind behind your "they aren't educated enough to know" shield.

Thank You

[mikejm]

Why are the people that are so proud of being "Sioux" so reluctant to visit the Pow-wows on this campus when I invite them?  Why is it that everyone says they are proud of the Sioux and know so much about the culture, but can only describe the dances they have seen at the hockey games?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps it is because of the less-than-cordial reception many of us have received when we've attempted to attend such functions. I grew up on the edge of a reservation, and attended a few pow-wows and other ceremonies over the years. Often I was the only white face evident. And far, far too often I was ostracized by Natives, essentially told to leave. My experience is not positive, and does nothing to foster an impression of an inclusive society.

[KnowtheFacts]

Quote from KTF:

You forgot a really huge issue that still faces Native Americans in your list. That is having to deal with racism and stereotypes imposed by people like you. It's kind of hard to get out of a rut when everyone thinks of you as a poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs. What are YOU doing? After all you are "honoring" the Sioux right?

I'm working on MY part. but since I am currently studying at UND where I get to deal with *this* every day. I work on the name issue, because I believe that what people learn about the Sioux from the UND experience leads them to treat NA's poorly in real life. Yes if the name is changed, the poor treatment will continue. but in time that will change because we wont be raising our children on these false beliefs.

see quote below as well.

This may be the single most ridiculous post I've read to date.  The word Sioux does not make someone treat another person poorly.  Because of a name people believe all native americans are a "poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs."  This is not something that can be assumed by a name.  Those are individual traits.  They are presented by each person in their words and actions.  Guess what, I have white relatives who present these traits.  I even bet there are hispanics, blacks, and asian persons with these downfalls in character, but they are not caused by a name.  While at UND I worked with a few indian students,  All of who were assimilated into the culture of the university.  They had none of the problems that you speak of, but again they weren't looking to cause problems in the community.  If they had tried to stand up, make a scene, and push their beliefs on the majority there may have been dissent directed at them.  This dissent however, would not be based on their skin color but on their need to push their agenda on others.  Most people don't want to be told what to think or do and this often creates unnecessary annimosity.  If you attempt to provoke someone this "poor treatment" that you speak of may be generated by a few intolerable people.  My friends and I were never subjected to  any of these problems that you refer to during my time at the U.  Finally I have to completely disagee that changing the name will change the attitude of some with regard to a race of people.  It's  the persons actions not the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

please go back and read the post in context. then maybe you will understand my comments.

I agree that changing the name will not change some peoples behavior. However, changing it will be a huge step forward in that process. I think in changing it, people will follow the institution's lead in trying to understand that "Fighting Sioux" really did have a negative impact on NA students. Second, the institution itself will no longer be promoting the stereotype. Of course there will be people, like on these boards, who will continue to wear Sioux jerseys and chant Go Sioux, but that only shows that they are unwilling to change or accept that maybe there was some question to the use of the nickname. yeah, yeah free speech blah blah blah. It is one thing for one person to speak freely. It is certainly another for a state and federally funded institution to promote such things.

I worked with some Indian students a few summers ago. They were minding their own business and certainly not trying to push their agenda on anyone. However, throughout the summer there were several instances where racial slurs were yelled at them for no reason, and an unprovoked assault with racial slurs spoken at the time. Just because you aren't aware of it doesnt mean it does not happen.

speaking of which: you said, "Most people don't want to be told what to think or do and this often creates unnecessary annimosity."

Do you think that being told to just shut up and be honored could be part of what creates some animosity?

[Diggler]

Who has personally attacked you KTF? None of the people who have made more then one or two posts on this debate. If you have to cite your sources in your research, why haven't you? Saying you went to the 4th Floor of the Chester Fritz Library to the Elwyn B. Robinson Special Collection isn't citing a source. What is inaccurate about the quote that is said at all sporting events?

It is one thing for one person to speak freely.  It is certainly another for a state and federally funded institution to promote such things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't honestly mean this. UND promoting this is what allows you to protest on campus.

[KnowtheFacts]

[PCM]

You said you read a great deal, but dont describe what you learned?  I dont think so.  You need to go back to the archives about the Sioux name itself.  Back into the 1930s on microfiche.  It is definitely not just one Letter to the editor, which you would know if you actually read the articles. Not just stuff about the hockey program.

Sigh...

I said that in the process of doing research on the hockey program, I became acquainted with some of the history of how UND adopted the Sioux name. I didn't pretend to be an expert on the subject because I haven't studied it in detail.

However, as a result of what I did, I know that the name change evolved over a couple of decades and I know the decision wasn't based solely on the rationale stated in one student's letter to the editor, which is how you characterized it.

Just to be clear, I wasn't researching the history of the name. Therefore, I didn't look for information specifically related to that issue. The resources I used included UND yearbooks and other books and publications on the history of athletics at UND. I didn't make any attempt to record any sources because I wasn't writing a research paper.

[YaneA]

To those of us engaging in and reading this lengthy debate, it should be obvious by now that the argument that the nickname "Fighting Sioux" and the logo are meant to bring honor to the Sioux people just ain't working. Proponents of the name: It's an honor. Opponents of the Name: Well, we don't feel honored.

So, this is my argument, one I've used for many years now:

Whatever had been UND's intent in the 1930s when it adopted the name "Fighting Sioux," whatever meaning and connotations we intended it have then, there is only one meaning now for the name "Fighting Sioux" and that is the athletic teams that compete for UND. It is the efforts, the achievements, the grit and determination of those individuals that have brought honor to the name they wear across their chests. They have instilled that name with value and meaning by fighting valiantly on their respective fields of play sometimes against great odds. When we fans emulate their style of dress by donning a jersey with the Fighting Sioux name and logo, we are honoring those athletes, past, present and future. Through a course of usage in the world of college sports, there's only one meaning for the name "Fighting Sioux" and thanks to the men and women who have competed under that name, it's a name of honor and respect, hard-earned and well-deserved.

[mikejm]

Maybe next time you shouldn't wear your "Fightng Sioux" jersey and "Fighting Sioux" hat to such an event.

I am white and I have been to many of such events.

[CoteauRinkRat]

After re-reading the whole thread, I actually have become even more frustrated, because GK and KnowtheFacts do not answer any of the serious questions posed to them.

The NCAA could stand to maybe spend some time on graduation rates amongst student athletes, but they decide to tackle this issue.

[mikejm]

The NCAA could stand to maybe spend some time on graduation rates amongst student athletes, but they decide to tackle this issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can I have an "AMEN"? Great point CRR!

[airmail]

Whatever had been UND's intent in the 1930s when it adopted the name "Fighting Sioux," whatever meaning and connotations we intended it have then, there is only one meaning now for the name "Fighting Sioux" and that is the athletic teams that  compete  for UND.  It is the efforts, the achievements, the grit and determination of those individuals that have brought honor to the name they wear across their chests.  They have instilled that name with value and meaning by fighting valiantly on their respective fields of play sometimes against great odds.  When we fans emulate their style of dress by donning a jersey with the Fighting Sioux name and logo, we are honoring those athletes, past, present and future.  Through a course of usage in the world of college sports, there's only one meaning for the name "Fighting Sioux" and thanks to the men and women who have competed under that name, it's a name of honor and respect, hard-earned and well-deserved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on.

[KnowtheFacts]

[KnowtheFacts]

To those of us engaging in and reading this lengthy debate, it should be obvious by now that the argument that the nickname "Fighting Sioux" and the logo are meant to bring honor to the Sioux people just ain't working.  Proponents of the name: It's an honor.  Opponents of the Name: Well, we don't feel honored.

So, this is my argument, one I've used for many years now:

Whatever had been UND's intent in the 1930s when it adopted the name "Fighting Sioux," whatever meaning and connotations we intended it have then, there is only one meaning now for the name "Fighting Sioux" and that is the athletic teams that  compete  for UND.  It is the efforts, the achievements, the grit and determination of those individuals that have brought honor to the name they wear across their chests.  They have instilled that name with value and meaning by fighting valiantly on their respective fields of play sometimes against great odds.  When we fans emulate their style of dress by donning a jersey with the Fighting Sioux name and logo, we are honoring those athletes, past, present and future.  Through a course of usage in the world of college sports, there's only one meaning for the name "Fighting Sioux" and thanks to the men and women who have competed under that name, it's a name of honor and respect, hard-earned and well-deserved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so you are adding to the string: Proponents of the name: It's an honor. Opponents of the Name: Well, we don't feel honored.

Proponents of the Name: Well, I dont care what you think or how you feel. I am the majority and I can do whatever I want without regard to anyone else. So shut up and feel honored dammit.

[Diggler]

Good job of putting words in people's mouths again. No one is demanding that anyone be honored by the name. While it is the intent, you don't have to feel honored by the nickname. You can be offended.

[KnowtheFacts]

One more thing GK/Knowthefacts:  How in the world can you speak for an entire nation of people?  What do you say about the polls that state the majority of Native Americans are okay with the Sioux name?  What about those who say it honors the tribe?  Are they wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was looking for some of the questions you said I hadn't answered. I am trying to answer but we keep going off on tangents.

Your line of questioning is so hypocritical. First you ask how an individual can speak for an entire nation of people, meaning that one voice does not matter as much as the entire tribe. Then you use the exact opposite argument to support your view: "what about the individuals who say it honors the tribe?"

The point I am making *again* is that there are elected leaders who speak for the tribes. Their decisions are based on input from their constituents. That is how these resolutions from almost all of the Sioux tribes have come about. Not by a couple of people who feel one way or the other.

let's see- we already had the discussion on polls and how they can say whatever a person wants them to say... And I think we already decided that we cant really use polls to support either argument.

[KnowtheFacts]

[airmail]

If I may add to the question, what do you think of the Sitting Bull sculpture outside of REA?  Further, how will you feel when it is hidden under blue tarps and duct tape for the hockey regional next year?  Respected?  Honored?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry for the re-post, but I really want to know.

[mikejm]

I am not afraid to answer your questions: I grew up on the edge of the White Earth Anishanabe nation, and attended pow-wows in White Earth and near Mahnomen many times. Never once did I feel welcome.

Further, your contention that nearly all Native people oppose the Sioux nickname is blatantly false, and frankly, insulting to my intelligence. The most visible and vocal Native proponent of the NCAA ban, Vernon Bellecourt, is from White Earth, and is well known there. I have been personally with acquainted with Vernon for almost 30 years. A number of tribal officials in White Earth have repeatedly disclaimed his statements and actions, in this, and other matters.

I wonder how many Natives will applaud Bellecourt's characterization of Ralph Engelstad and Fighting Sioux supporters as "nazis" this morning on the PA and Dubay program?

[Sioux-cia]

If the Fighting Sioux name has really educated anybody about the Sioux.  then why is is still suprising to people that all Native Americans DONT go to college for free. 

A very good friend of mine, tall, skinny, white kid of German decsent taught school on the reservation in Poplar, Mt. He loved his job and the kids he taught. The kids loved him. After two/three years he left teaching. He went into teaching so he could make a difference and discovered that he didn't. He told us he had many talented, intelligent students whom he believed could do well in a University setting. These students quit school because they didn't believe an education would give them anything more in life than they already had. Whose fault is that? Not Steve's, they had that mind set way before he met them. Not the University of North Dakota nor the Fighting Sioux. It was your fault. You didn't instill pride in those children through example, word nor deed. If you had, they would know there was more to life than what they already had.

So before you ask for a free education, educate your children while they're still in diapers, still in grammer and high school. My mother, a third generation Mexican American (treated as if she just swam over the Rio Grande)came from a family of 14. Her parents died when she was only 8. The highest grade any of those relatives finished was the third grade. Of the 90+ off spring they had, 85% of us have college degrees. No hand outs, from parents or government, we paid for our own education. Even though we're 'Natives' of the America's, we've been subject to all the crap that 'real' Native 'America's have been subjected to. My Uncle Frank believed there were injustices that had to be made right. He belonged to the NAACP because back then there were no organizations for Hispanics, he marched in the Civil Rights movement, etc. etc. etc. My Ma raised us to believe that although there are people as good as we are, there's no one better.

Do all you can to take care of your own before you ask some one else to fix your problems. Schools with Native American nicknames did not cause the inherent problems that exist, today, amongst the Native American population.

Excuse me, while I climb off my soap box.

[BigGame]

The point I am making *again* is that there are elected leaders who speak for the tribes. Their decisions are based on input from their constituents. That is how these resolutions from almost all of the Sioux tribes have come about. Not by a couple of people who feel one way or the other.

Isn't that somewhat like saying I should agree with everything an elected official does as long as I voted for them? I waiting for a phone call from the president, I have a few ideas he needs to implement.

Elected officials rarely do what is best for the people that elect them, typically loyalties are somewhere other than the people they are supposed to be serving. A great example of this is the education system in Texas. The state legeslature couldn't get school finance resolved (they really don't care about it) so the governor called a special session for the purspose of fixing school finance in Texas. Within the first 30 minutes of the session, they voted themselves a fat pay raise, and then let the special session end getting nothing else accomplished. They are now in a second special session to fix school finance and will not get it done. Do you think these politicians really care about the people they are supposed to be serving.

[KnowtheFacts]

Isn't that somewhat like saying I should agree with everything an elected official does as long as I voted for them? I waiting for a phone call from the president, I have a few ideas he needs to implement.

Elected officials rarely do what is best for the people that elect them, typically loyalties are somewhere other than the people they are supposed to be serving. A great example of this is the education system in Texas. The state legeslature couldn't get school finance resolved (they really don't care about it) so the governor called a special session for the purspose of fixing school finance in Texas. Within the first 30 minutes of the session, they voted themselves a fat pay raise, and then let the special session end getting nothing else accomplished. They are now in a second special session to fix school finance and will not get it done. Do you think these politicians really care about the people they are supposed to be serving.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im am so sick of talking about this point. If you dont believe some what in democracy, then you need to move to another country. but then there your opinion *really* wouldnt matter. according to *you*, Gov. Hoven's statements today are a bunch of political b.s. and I can summarily dismiss them since there is no reason for me to believe that he is reflecting anyones opinion but his own and the people who financially back him. (But I am thinking since he supports *your* views that what he said is okay.)

[Sioux-cia]

Im am so sick of talking about this point

.

Bye

[KnowtheFacts]

[Diggler]

I think a problem comes when you start saying there are all these differences between group A and group B. Group A is different and should be listened to more because of A, B and C that happened to them. These things never happened to group B, so group B just doesn't understand. If you aren't group A or agree with group A, you'll never understand.

Comparing and counting the injustices that different groups recieved in the past and then using that to justify why one group should be listened to more than another, doesn't really solve anything. Every group has been persecuted at some point in time, listing and comparing these persecutions doesn't solve anything.