To begin a journey of a 1000 miles....

[PCM]

Again.........The Vikings are not a people.  Don't waste my time.  Go to the library as ask for help finding information about the Vikings.  The Vikings were of scandinavian descent, but didn't represent all of the people of that culture.  if you want to believe that, then go ahead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're still not answering my questions. Do you want me to repeat them?

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

[The Sicatoka]

The Irish, that school was founded by the Irish. I've never heard of the Vandals as a cultural entity. The Quakers are a religious group, not a people. The Aztecs are a Native American group, central American, but one none the less. What's your point?

Notre Dame, French for "Our Lady", wasn't founded by the Irish.

The school was founded in 1842 by Rev. Edward Sorin and French priests who were members of the Congregation of Holy Cross.

Vandals were the Germanic tribe that sacked Rome in 455 AD.

Aren't religions as deserving of protection as races?

And you made my point about Aztecs.

All four names (Irish, Vandals, Quakers, Aztecs) are unaffected by the NCAA's recent stance.

[Diggler]

The Irish, that school was founded by the Irish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it wasn't.

The Aztecs are a Native American group, central American, but one none the less.  What's your point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The San Diego State Aztecs are not on the list of offensive school names the NCAA submitted.

[The Sicatoka]

That is FSU.  I'm not Seminole.  And the last time I checked, UND did not have the backing of the SIOUX in the use of the name here.  That's what we are talking about.

The Florida Seminole Nation supports FSU.

The Seminoles in Oklahoma assumably do not.

So there can be disagreements amongst American Indians on this matter, even within nations.

Which means we need to listen to and for Sioux voices that may not agree with yours, for example the Oceti Sakowin Hunkpapa Elders, as well as yours, and sort for the truth from there.

[HockeyMom]

That is FSU.  I'm not Seminole.  And the last time I checked, UND did not have the backing of the SIOUX in the use of the name here.  That's what we are talking about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One Sioux tribe said please don't use it, the other gave UND permission in writing to use it.

[PCM]

No, it wasn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does this prove that GrahamKracker and Knowthefacts aren't the same person?

[PCM]

Repeat them

From the old "Vikings are not people" thread:

(GrahamKracker @ Jun 9 2005, 01:59 AM)

Why must everyone compare the "Sioux" with the Vikings?  I never got this comparison.  First of all, are there any vikings around now?

The Vikings were my ancestors. I thought you were opposed to your ancestors being portrayed in a stereotypical manner. Why is it acceptable for my ancestors to be ridiculed and stereotyped, but not yours?

I wonder how much Duante Culpepper knows about the history, culture, traditions and heritage of the Scandinavian people. Shouldn't anyone who puts on a Vikings jersey be required to know something about Scandinavian history and culture? What about athletes who play for the Fighting Irish? I wonder how much they actually know about the Irish. Shouldn't the fans who watch Vikings, Vandals or Fighting Irish sporting events be required to know something about the culture of the people after which those teams are named?

[Let'sGoHawks!]

As mentioned above, no, I don't know everything there is to do with Native Americans, namely the Sioux nation. But, everything I do know has been taught to me because of UND. Is this sad, perhaps, but it is the truth. Yes, I understand the ceremonies at hockey games are only a small part of the Sioux culture, but at least I have seen that part. Without UND having the Sioux name, I, and most everybody around here would know NOTHING about Native American culture.

[Bacardio]

Actually Kracker, since you can't see past your hate. I will help you out a little.

Vikings did and do still exist, but the term Viking was not what they called themselves at the biginning. They called themselves Norwegiens or Finnish. The term Viking was "dropped" on them by others, which they "adapted".

The Viking culture is alive and well, but most of the decendents have assumulated into society, while holding on to their past culture. There are still settlements in isolated regions of Norway, that hold on to more of their past then others, except for the raiding of other countries.

So before you say anything else stupid and hateful, try your own suggestion and go to the library and do some research.

And one final suggestion, if you want to stop racism and the trouble it causes, start with the person you see in the mirror.

[Goon]

[BigGame]

[CKorrect]

What about the Fighting Irish? Isnt that offensive to someone? how about boilermakers(train conductors must be furious)? corn huskers(my grandpa was a farmer)? hawkeyes(im sure some bird is offended)?

This is just rediculous. The NCAA needs to deal the cards even if they're going to play this game.

Cam

[Diggler]

how about boilermakers(train conductors must be furious)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A Boilermaker is a shot of alcohol with a beer chaser, nothing to do with trains.

Still with the NCAA being against alcohol, you wouldn't think they'd allow a nickname like this.

[PCM]

A Boilermaker is a shot of alcohol with a beer chaser, nothing to do with trains.

Still with the NCAA being against alcohol, you wouldn't think they'd allow a nickname like this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Along that line of thinking, here are some more college nicknames that are just asking to be banned by the NCAA.

[GrahamKracker]

[HockeyMom]

This is because the majority of society clumps all Natives together.

[BigGame]

[Sioux-cia]

This is because the majority of society clumps all Natives together.  We Natives don't do this, we know who we are, but society as a whole does this.  Unfortunately, people get hurt when this happens.

Not according to this you don't---

"Traditionally when a Dakota/Nakota/Lakota person was asked by one of our own people

[jloos]

GrahamKracker,

I'll give you a little advice. You will live a very lonely, unhappy, unproductive life with your mindset. You stereotype everyone and everything. You have yet to state why you want UND to change its name - just that you demand they should because you are of Sioux ancestory. At least come up with a rational. I think most on this board would give you some respect if you actually came up with a well thought out argument. The vast majority of Indians have no problem with the name. UND has done everything they can to honor the name. UND has done more than almost any University in the country for Indian students. UND has done a lot for Indians who never set foot on the campus through the med school, law school, and I'm sure other schools. Personally I am involved with Indian law and have met hundreds of tribal leaders. I do not discuss college sports names with most of them, but the majority of those I have talked to about it draw a very big distinction between UND's use of the Sioux name and the redskin or savage nickname. The name redskin or savage is akin to calling a team a derogity term I will not put on this board. Using the name Sioux or Seminole is akin to using the name Irish or Viking. Ironically those that I've talked to who want the name change most often site the negative press received from people like you as the main reason for wanting the change. Everytime someone pulls a stupid PC move like the NCAA, they find some Native poster child to pretend it is the Indian community behind the push to change the name. This creates some hard feelings toward said Indian community. In reality it is most often some fringe group of white people that pretends the use of Indian names is like segregation. I think I'm done ranting - I never did see you come down to the Indian Law Center - ironically nobody there nor anybody at the Indian center had any clue who you were or could be.

[cheppi]

Quote from KTF:

You forgot a really huge issue that still faces Native Americans in your list. That is having to deal with racism and stereotypes imposed by people like you. It's kind of hard to get out of a rut when everyone thinks of you as a poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs. What are YOU doing? After all you are "honoring" the Sioux right?

I'm working on MY part. but since I am currently studying at UND where I get to deal with *this* every day. I work on the name issue, because I believe that what people learn about the Sioux from the UND experience leads them to treat NA's poorly in real life. Yes if the name is changed, the poor treatment will continue. but in time that will change because we wont be raising our children on these false beliefs.

see quote below as well.

This may be the single most ridiculous post I've read to date. The word Sioux does not make someone treat another person poorly. Because of a name people believe all native americans are a "poor pregnant criminal who abuses alcohol and drugs." This is not something that can be assumed by a name. Those are individual traits. They are presented by each person in their words and actions. Guess what, I have white relatives who present these traits. I even bet there are hispanics, blacks, and asian persons with these downfalls in character, but they are not caused by a name. While at UND I worked with a few indian students, All of who were assimilated into the culture of the university. They had none of the problems that you speak of, but again they weren't looking to cause problems in the community. If they had tried to stand up, make a scene, and push their beliefs on the majority there may have been dissent directed at them. This dissent however, would not be based on their skin color but on their need to push their agenda on others. Most people don't want to be told what to think or do and this often creates unnecessary annimosity. If you attempt to provoke someone this "poor treatment" that you speak of may be generated by a few intolerable people. My friends and I were never subjected to any of these problems that you refer to during my time at the U. Finally I have to completely disagee that changing the name will change the attitude of some with regard to a race of people. It's the persons actions not the name.

[soohockey15]

graham, how has the nickname affected YOU personally (and not because you are of Sioux decent, we've established that)? Do you feel disrespected whenever you pull on a UND t-shirt with a Sioux logo on it? Do you not appreciate the fact that thousands of UND supporters love and embrace the Sioux nickname? Do you face racial barbs at sporting events? Would your life have been any different if UND's nickname weren't the Sioux? What disrespect do you see in the Sioux nickname?

[airmail]

graham, how has the nickname affected YOU personally (and not because you are of Sioux decent, we've established that)? Do you feel disrespected whenever you pull on a UND t-shirt with a Sioux logo on it? Do you not appreciate the fact that thousands of UND supporters love and embrace the Sioux nickname?  Do you face racial barbs at sporting events? Would your life have been any different if UND's nickname weren't the Sioux? What disrespect do you see in the Sioux nickname?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I may add to the question, what do you think of the Sitting Bull sculpture outside of REA? Further, how will you feel when it is hidden under blue tarps and duct tape for the hockey regional next year? Respected? Honored?

[GrahamKracker]

GrahamKracker,

I'll give you a little advice.  You will live a very lonely, unhappy, unproductive life with your mindset.  You stereotype everyone and everything.  You have yet to state why you want UND to change its name - just that you demand they should because you are of Sioux ancestory.  At least come up with a rational.  I think most on this board would give you some respect if you actually came up with a well thought out argument.  The vast majority of Indians have no problem with the name.  UND has done everything they can to honor the name.  UND has done more than almost any University in the country for Indian students.  UND has done a lot for Indians who never set foot on the campus through the med school, law school, and I'm sure other schools.  Personally I am involved with Indian law and have met hundreds of tribal leaders.  I do not discuss college sports names with most of them, but the majority of those I have talked to about it draw a very big distinction between UND's use of the Sioux name and the redskin or savage nickname.  The name redskin or savage is akin to calling a team a derogity term I will not put on this board.  Using the name Sioux or Seminole is akin to using the name Irish or Viking.  Ironically those that I've talked to who want the name change most often site the negative press received from people like you as the main reason for wanting the change.  Everytime someone pulls a stupid PC move like the NCAA, they find some Native poster child to pretend it is the Indian community behind the push to change the name.  This creates some hard feelings toward said Indian community.  In reality it is most often some fringe group of white people that pretends the use of Indian names is like segregation.  I think I'm done ranting - I never did see you come down to the Indian Law Center - ironically nobody there nor anybody at the Indian center had any clue who you were or could be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should I come to the Law school? Chances are I've never seen you at ANY other Indian functions on campus, why is that? Did you ask Darlene who I was? Ironically, I'm one of the "only" Native students on this campus that is an active member of this community.

Regardless of how you feel, a majority of the SIOUX tribes have passed resolutions calling for an end to the use of the FS name, and I too have spoken to many many tribal leaders. I also grew up around Indians. I can empathize with the conditions on the reservations because that is where I came from. There are some Indians who grew this way and other who don't even have a clue as to what I'm talking about. I wonder which you are?

Maybe I will come visit you. I hope you are there today.