World Junior Tryouts

[Canuck]

It is like talking to a bunch of republicans and dissing President Bush, they don't like hearing anything critical of their man or in this case, their organization.

Yes, that's exactly it.

My apologies for trying to provide a second side to a debate. Heaven forbid.

[THETRIOUXPER]

Careful there Canuck, there are many who post on here that don't appreciete fact, personal opinion and speculation always hold the most weight in these situations.

[redwing77]

Did you know 2005 marked the first time in nine years Canada's WJC roster did not include at least one U.S. college player?

This conspiracy theory simply does not hold water. When it comes to hockey, Canada wants to win. There are no Woog-ish practices going on. If there is a player playing somewhere beyond the Canadian borders that can help the team win, they will use him, no matter if he's playing in Cranbrook, B.C., or Pakistan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would normally agree with this if it wasn't for the articles posted concerning Toews recent "battle" with Tri City.

They stated that, should Jon decide to go to UND, chances are his brother wouldn't be sought out as highly as he was and his chances of representing his country in International events like the World Juniors would be put in jeopardy. It's not hard to use that as reinforcement to these "personal opinions and speculation" that everyone, including those throwing stones utilize so often as of late.

Anyways, it's nice that Team Canada has an NCAA player on their team. A few good questions to follow up on those nine years are these:

1. Nine years out of how many years (that the WJC has been held)?

2. What was the playing time of that NCAA player during those nine years?

I'm not trying to be critical here, I'm honestly curious as to whether or not the player was added to the team because he was a contributor or was he added on to the team because it was felt that he qualified to be on the team as well as qualified to be used as a token to show that Team Canada "Takes the best qualified from anywhere"

I admit last year's team was a great team for Team Canada. Who really knows.

[THETRIOUXPER]

I can hardly wait until I achieve "holier than thou" status so I can decide if, when and who is allowed to throw stones at who. Lord knows that some on here can get away with it while others are expected to play nice.

[Canuck]

As I've said before, there are no 'tokens.' With our over-the-top obsession with hockey, winning is the first and foremost consideration. Not filling some imaginary quota.

Yes, the World Junior tournament is held every year. It has been eight (my mistake) years since the Canadian roster was without an NCAA player.

Below, I have listed all of the NCAA players who have played for Canada; it is a listed I've now posted on this site three times whenever this debate surfaces. To answer your second question specifically, I have grown up watching this tournament. It is my favorite sporting event each and every year. I can tell you that all of these players played significant roles on the team. In fact, Kariya, Botterill and Cammalleri were all recently named to the Team Canada World Junior All-Time Team. Botterill is the only player in the history of the program to win three gold medals. Mike Van Ryn was a team captain. And so on and so on.

This list should (or so I thought the first two times) make it difficult to make an anti-NCAA argument. Enjoy...

"As a follow up to my first response, I thought I'd provide some facts before this "Canadian conspiracy against U.S. collegians" gets out of hand again. Please note, that I first posted these numbers last Jan. 5 (after the World Jr. tournament) when Sioux fans were insisting there was a Canadian bias against college players. I must say, as far as conspiracies go, this is quite unimpressive:

For the sake of reference, my unofficial count has 40 NCAA players representing Canada at the World Juniors since 1982 (list below). That's roughly two per season, despite the fact that most of the elite Canadian hockey players choose Canadian major junior hockey over the U.S. college ranks."

2004: Jeff Tambellini (Michigan)

2003: David LeNeveu (Cornell)

2002: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan)

2001: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan), Dany Heatley (Wisconsin)

2000: Dany Heatley (Wisconsin), Matt Pettinger (Denver)

1999: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan)

1998: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan)

1996: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Mike Watt (Michigan State)

1995: Jason Botterill (Michigan)

1994: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Anson Carter (Michigan State)

1993: Paul Kariya (Maine), Adrian Aucoin (Boston University)

1992: Brad Bombardir (UND), Paul Kariya (Maine), Ryan Hughes (Cornell)

1991: Greg Johnson (UND), David Harlock (Michigan)

1990: Dwayne Norris (Michigan State), Dan Ratushny (Cornell), Scot Pellerin (Maine), Adrien Plavsic (New Hampshire), Jason Herter (UND)

1989: Rod Brind'Amour (Michigan State), Geoff Smith (UND)

1986: Joe Murphy (Michigan State), Joe Nieuwendyk (Cornell), Scott Mellanby (Wisconsin), Peter Douris (New Hampshire)

1985: Brad Berry (UND), Norm Foster (Michigan State)

1983: Pat Flatley (Wisconsin), Gord Sherven (UND), James Patrick (UND)

1982: Troy Murray (UND), Carey Wilson (Dartmouth), James Patrick (UND)......

[THETRIOUXPER]

Nice presentation of the facts THERE Canuck. Now, and I;m sure I will be scrutinized for this but would someone please post the link to the actual article or statement from Hockey Canada where it says Mr. Toews and his sblings would be overlooked for international competition on Team Canada, mostly cause I am not familiar with it and if others are please share. I am not refering to any article that holds the opinion of a sports writer either, just actual statements from Canadian Hockey Officials. I'm not trying to be a jerk here just seeking info.

[Canuck]

If the number '40' still seems too low for somebody's liking, please also bear in mind that a vast majority of Canadian hockey players are no longer junior age when they come to the college ranks (just ask Doug Woog!), therefore making them ineligible for the World Junior tournament.

[Eskimos]

So were the Toews family and those close to the situation making it up when they said they were feeling pressure from Hockey Canada to go the MJ route?

[redwing77]

As I've said before, there are no 'tokens.' With our over-the-top obsession with hockey, winning is the first and foremost consideration. Not filling some imaginary quota.

Yes, the World Junior tournament is held every year. It has been eight (my mistake) years since the Canadian roster was without an NCAA player.

Below, I have listed all of the NCAA players who have played for Canada; it is a listed I've now posted on this site three times whenever this debate surfaces. To answer your second question specifically, I have grown up watching this tournament. It is my favorite sporting event each and every year. I can tell you that all of these players played significant roles on the team. In fact, Kariya, Botterill and Cammalleri were all recently named to the Team Canada World Junior All-Time Team. Botterill is the only player in the history of the program to win three gold medals. Mike Van Ryn was a team captain. And so on and so on.

This list should (or so I thought the first two times) make it difficult to make an anti-NCAA argument. Enjoy...

"As a follow up to my first response, I thought I'd provide some facts before this "Canadian conspiracy against U.S. collegians" gets out of hand again. Please note, that I first posted these numbers last Jan. 5 (after the World Jr. tournament) when Sioux fans were insisting there was a Canadian bias against college players. I must say, as far as conspiracies go, this is quite unimpressive:

For the sake of reference, my unofficial count has 40 NCAA players representing Canada at the World Juniors since 1982 (list below). That's roughly two per season, despite the fact that most of the elite Canadian hockey players choose Canadian major junior hockey over the U.S. college ranks."

2004: Jeff Tambellini (Michigan)

2003: David LeNeveu (Cornell)

2002: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan)

2001: Mike Cammalleri (Michigan), Dany Heatley (Wisconsin)

2000: Dany Heatley (Wisconsin), Matt Pettinger (Denver)

1999: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan)

1998: Mike Van Ryn (Michigan)

1996: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Mike Watt (Michigan State)

1995: Jason Botterill (Michigan)

1994: Jason Botterill (Michigan), Anson Carter (Michigan State)

1993: Paul Kariya (Maine), Adrian Aucoin (Boston University)

1992: Brad Bombardir (UND), Paul Kariya (Maine), Ryan Hughes (Cornell)

1991: Greg Johnson (UND), David Harlock (Michigan)

1990: Dwayne Norris (Michigan State), Dan Ratushny (Cornell), Scot Pellerin (Maine), Adrien Plavsic (New Hampshire), Jason Herter (UND)

1989: Rod Brind'Amour (Michigan State), Geoff Smith (UND)

1986: Joe Murphy (Michigan State), Joe Nieuwendyk (Cornell), Scott Mellanby (Wisconsin), Peter Douris (New Hampshire)

1985: Brad Berry (UND), Norm Foster (Michigan State)

1983: Pat Flatley (Wisconsin), Gord Sherven (UND), James Patrick (UND)

1982: Troy Murray (UND), Carey Wilson (Dartmouth), James Patrick (UND)......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow. This is an impressive list. Well, at least now I can say that they aren't token players. That's good to know.

Eskimos- It was no lie. I'm looking up the article right now. When I find it, I'll post it.

[Cratter]

Oh gawwd. Here we go again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Refute it all you want but there are many people in canada who don't want NCAA players on their international competition rosters!

And there is a move afoot among CHL teams to recommend to Hockey Canada that NCAA players not be permitted to play for Canada's national junior team.

[redwing77]

I can't find the article. Damn it. I KNOW it's there. Can someone help?

[Cratter]

I can't find the article.  Damn it.  I KNOW it's there.  Can someone help?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I quoted the part from the article.

http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?sh...indpost&p=81198

[redwing77]

[Canuck]

And there is a move afoot among CHL teams to recommend to Hockey Canada that NCAA players not be permitted to play for Canada's national junior team.

I don't see any actual source backing up the statement within the article; for that reason, I have to think that is pure speculation on the part of the writer. If what he says is true about some kind of "movement," then that would be completely assinine. But the bottom line is, it hasn't happened.

Meanwhile, I ask you to again refer to the list of 40 players. In one corner, the facts. In the other corner, an unattributed statement in a newspaper article.

And let's cut the indignation about Tri-City trying to "pressure" Toews into playing for them; I find it hard to believe anybody on this board is naive enough to think that recruiting wars take place only in Candian junior hockey. Puh-lease.

[CoteauRinkRat]

I don't see any actual source backing up the statement within the article; for that reason, I have to think that is pure speculation on the part of the writer. If what he says is true about some kind of "movement," then that would be completely assinine. But the bottom line is, it hasn't happened.

Meanwhile, I ask you to again refer to the list of 40 players. In one corner, the facts. In the other corner, an unattributed statement in a newspaper article.

And let's cut the indignation about Tri-City trying to "pressure" Toews into playing for them; I find it hard to believe anybody on this board is naive enough to think that recruiting wars take place only in Candian junior hockey. Puh-lease.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would doubt that Hockey Canada would be releasing any official statements regarding this, nor would the CHL.

"But the bottom line is, it hasn't happened." Puh-lease

[Canuck]

I would doubt that Hockey Canada would be releasing any official statements regarding this, nor would the CHL.

No kidding.

What I meant was, on what information does the writer (and you, for that matter) base this statment? I never said it had to be an "official statement." The writer says a movement is underway by some TEAMS. Ok, so which teams? How does he know? Does he have a quote from an official from one of the said teams? How about even an anonymous quote?

Something, ANYTHING, to substantiate such a statment.

We have none of that. Which is why I can't take it for anything more than speculation.

In the meantime, how about any of the believers in this conspiracy give me 10 - no, give me FIVE - NCAA names you feel have been snubbed by the Canadian world junior team over the past 10 years. And tell me who those players should have replaced and why. This shouldn't be too difficult since so many posters on this board are such experts on this tournament after following it for two years.

You even have the benfit of hindsight in these situations. Can you do it?

Until someone can do this, these continual accusations of an anti-NCAA conspiracy come off as nothing more than baseless whining.

Sorry to get so pissy; I tried the facts and that didn't work.

[CoteauRinkRat]

This shouldn't be too difficult since so many posters on this board are such experts on this tournament after following it for two years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Calm down, step back, breathe for five minutes

I never have and never will consider myself an expert on anything, especially the World Junior tournament.

Why take a shot at posters on this board who aren't "experts" on the World Junior tournament?

[Canuck]

Why take a shot at posters on this board who aren't "experts" on the World Junior tournament?

Hey, simply presenting the facts didn't work...

The fact of the matter is, three times now since I've joined this board I've seen this debate come up. I log on and read several posts (many from people, and let's be honest here, weren't even aware of this tournament until the three UND boys led the U.S. to gold two years ago) about this bias the Canadian world junior program has against NCAA players. About how Brady Murray got stiffed. About how Travis Zajac got stiffed.

Each time, I've presented a list of 40 NCAA players who have represented Team Canada. Forty! 4-0!

Yet the shots at Hockey Canada continue, all the while the facts are completely ignored (with the exception of Redwing, who, to his credit, asked for some facts, read them, then softened his stance).

Backhanded shots at posters are a result of a continual disregard for the facts. And let's be clear, the personal shots didn't start with me. The first shot was directed AT me with some lame attempt at comparing Canadian hockey fans to republicans.

Forty players have played for Canada. Brady Murray WASN'T snubbed; he faced the same evalution procedures as any other Canadian-born player. Faced with an automatic spot on the U.S. team, he opted to go that route. Travis Zajac wasn't snubbed. He was left off a team that many have called the MOST DOMINANT IN THE HISTORY OF THE TOURNAMENT. We don't hear from posters who he should have replaced, only that he was snubbed. And he wasn't snubbed this year. HE IS TOO OLD. But one of the first responses to the most recent Zajac question was, 'He plays for a U.S. college.'

If there is a morsel of truth to these conspiracy theories, I will be completely ashamed of the politics involved. But based on facts I was able to provide, and the facts several posters are UNABLE to provide, it is nothing more than accusations and sour grapes.

If you want to make a claim, be able to back it up. That's all I ask.

[Eskimos]

Backhanded shots at posters are a result of a continual disregard for the facts. And let's be clear, the personal shots didn't start with me. The first shot was directed AT me with some lame attempt at comparing Canadian hockey fans to republicans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re-read my post Canuck, I never compared the two, it was an analogy and I'm not quite aware of where the personal shot was there, but I'm sure you will fill us in.

I also do not see why you would take a shot at members of this board who are not die-hard world junior fans and only have followed the tournament for the last couple of years, because I'm sure a lot of these same people probably agree with you and your points.

Are posters supposed to post their credentials before posting?

[sagard]

In the meantime, how about any of the believers in this conspiracy give me 10 - no, give me FIVE - NCAA names you feel have been snubbed by the Canadian world junior team over the past 10 years. And tell me who those players should have replaced and why. This shouldn't be too difficult since so many posters on this board are such experts on this tournament after following it for two years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are five quick names, I believe I could find more if I looked eastward past Michigan.

B. Morrison

T. Zajac

B. Murray

R. Bayda

B. Skinner

I don't follow team Canada at all so I can't tell you who possible replacements would be, but I do believe there certainly were players of similar skills and talent on the Canada WJC teams in the years these players would have been eligible.

I completely agree with your sentiment that Canada will take college players if they are good enough and that there is no conspiracy. I don't agree that college players are on equal footing for the coveted last spot on the roster that I'm sure many kids dream of obtaining. For a player like Toews, this will not come into play. For the players above it certainly may have.

[Canuck]

also do not see why you would take a shot at members of this board who are not die-hard world junior fans and only have followed the tournament for the last couple of years, because I'm sure a lot of these same people probably agree with you and your points.

My point exactly. If most observers are new to this tournament, I think that's wonderful. For years I longed for World Junior exposure outside of Canada.

That's not where my problem lies. My problem lies with many of the same people repeatedly making claims that NCAA players have been unfairly snubbed during the selection process. Well, if you are a new observer of this tournament, how do you know this to be true?

Well, you would then go to the facts, right? I tried to provide those facts to shed some light on my belief that this bias does not exist. However, those facts have been igored three times now. Those facts refuted the argument, yet the argument somehow rages on.

That would imply the people making these accusations have some sort of inside information beyond the numbers I provided. Having such inside info would thusly qualify one as an expert, would it not? Obviously, I'm being facetious now, but that's what the continual igorance of the facts led to.

That is why I took the shot at the "experts." Maybe it was an attempt to shock certain people into paying attention to the facts before making such claims.

Either way, at this point the debate has been reduced to several posters simply disagreeing with me (and a couple more agreeing with me). Yet in between, no one else has been able to provide any hard eveidence to counter mine.

That is where my frustration sets in; several people insist on telling me I'm wrong, but fail to tell me why I'm wrong.

[Canuck]

Here are five quick names, I believe I could find more if I looked eastward past Michigan.

B. Morrison

T. Zajac

B. Murray

R. Bayda

B. Skinner

1) Brendan Morrison would have been eligible during his freshman year of 1993-94 but did not make the team. I cannot recall whether or not he was invited to camp and subsequently cut, but I can tell you that the 1994 Canadian team was absolutely loaded up front and eventually won gold, so it's difficult to argue with the team that was picked:

1994 Canadian Junior Team

2-3) Zajac and Murray I discussed in an earlier post. Zajac didn't make last year's team, which steamrolled its way to gold, and is too old this year. Murray was eligible two years ago, and (I believe) was invited to the evaluation camp, but ended up getting his U.S. citizenship and playing for the U.S. instead.

4) Ryan Bayda's freshman year at UND was 1999-00 and his birthdate was Dec. 9, 1980. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2000 tournament and therefore ineligible.

5) Brett Skinner's freshman year at DU was 2002-03 and his birthdate is June 28, 1983. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2003 tournament and therefore ineligible.

[sagard]

Sorry for the bad examples. Do you believe there is any merit to my position that to make team Canada as a non-MJ player you need to absolutely exceptional to avoid getting overlooked?

It seems like it would be only human nature to take the players you are most familiar with. Why risk a roster spot with an NCAA player or a junior player if you have plenty of talent to fill your team with known players.

OT: I think it's time for the NCAA to relax about MJ players. Let each season of MJ count as a season of NCAA eligibility if you must, but it's soon going to be time to let non-WCHA teams have access to some decent players as well.

[PCM]

Murray was eligible two years ago, and (I believe) was invited to the evaluation camp, but ended up getting his U.S. citizenship and playing for the U.S. instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is correct. For Murray, it came down to choosing between trying out for the Canadian team, possibly not making it and missing the WJC tournament or taking a spot he was virtually guaranteed on the US roster and playing in the WJC. He chose to play for Team USA and it turned out well for him.

[#1Hakfan]

I guess we will see how many NCAA players make it in the future. It seems the colleges are more than ever getting some of the better kids in Canada ( I am not saying the NCAA is Better then Tier 1). The CHL is going nuts over losing guys like Toews, Bertram, Bradford. They are really getting tired of guys using the NCAA as leverage before the drafts. I read an article that stated they need to do something because the teams that passed on Angelo Espisto are really MAD(no one had any ideas what to do).

The CHL is offering more scholarships to try keep the best kids in Canada. Every year they are coming up with options to keep their players. Sidney Crosby played the game a little bit saying he was going college. They give him $1 for every ticket sold in the Q.

My point is I guess we will see in the future how many kids make the world junior team in Canada. The country is that deep in talent they probably dont need the College players. We will see in a few years if Toews makes it. That will answer our questions.

As for letting major junior players eligible for the NCAA. With the exception of Cary Eades, I dont think there is a coach in college hockey that is going to go in a locker room in the WHL and try and recruit a player. There coaches and Staff HATE college coaches.