NDSU opposition to Sioux name

[star2city]

The fact that we quit playing NDSU regularly in all sports after next season makes it a bit of a non-event, though.

One would think they'd be open to playing us as, of course, the Fighting Sioux:

Attendance - Opponent

12,499 - - - - Winona State

10,260 - - - - Augustana

19,042 - - - - North Dakota Fighting Sioux

8541 - - - - MSU-M

6126 - - - - UNC

6768 - - - - SCSU

But then again, a Div I team won't want to tarnish its 'image' losing to a Div II every year.

[Taz Boy]

NDSJC's downward spiral continues with this latest desperate attempt to direct the public's scrutiny northward. Like SCSU, they choose to ignore the very real problems on their own campus and instead rehash an unrelated, cosmetic talking-point that has been stale for over a year. Even the GF Herald's twisted obsession with the UND nickname has subsided-- realizing now that there are more important issues to report on.

What is sad, however, is that these academic administrators are getting paid real dollars to spend their time so foolishly. Let's hope the general ridicule from the local media helps to redirect the focus of the elites back to the business at hand. But, since when has that ever happened before?

Go ahead, farm school leaders, pass the nickname "boycott" and implement the same stupid policy as the other area institutions. But, may I suggest you go further where others before have failed. Implement a study and then provide statistics or other such evidence as to how your symbolic acts of good will have directly lead to the improvement of the lives of Native Americans, Sioux in particular, living in North Dakota. I'm betting you will find you have wasted your time, and ignored those you seek to help.

Long live the legendary Fighting Sioux name and tradition.

taz

[JBB]

I hate to interject but really this is so funny! Your insensitivity and greed have painted you into a very uncomfortable corner.

[U2Bad1]

I hate to interject but really this is so funny! Your insensitivity and greed have painted you into a very uncomfortable corner.

I think a majority of bison fans will agree with us. My buddy who bleeds green and gold things this is so stupid.

[Goon]

Taz,

Here is the reality you can throw a hundred pro-name people against the small minority of P.C. pro-name change crowd. And for some reason the press thinks the pro-name change crowd has a more valid point. You would also think there is a ground swell oppostion to the fighting Sioux name and there isn't. Your talking about a small number of people in favor of changing the name.

Now for some reason NDSU has gotten itself into the fray, I think more just to make themselves look more division one.

Heres the reality is Bridges and a couple of other UND student organizations have contacted various student organizations on the different campuses around the midwest region (UofM, UMD, SCCC, NDSU and MSU) and gotten small protests started. Again I wounder how many of the protesters are hand ringing white liberal arts professor telling people how they are supposed to think? You know the basic theory of lets educate the rubes. Their out to save the world.

For some reason the Media thinks that a protest of 100 people is some how signifigant versus 12,000 that saw the game against the Gophers last October. Maybe this is why we have so many problems in our country we are flunking basic math. That is a percentage of .0083. Of course you will never read the point of view in your local fish wrapper.

I am also sure the SCSU president wanting to take the heat off himself and his univesity said, "Hey this is a great opportunity to get the focus off us and on to someone else." So the question I pose to everyone who is more prolific than the UND hockey program and its state of the art 100,000,000.00 college hockey arena. 7 natioal championship banners is lot compared to a small second rate institution like SCSU with its three NCAA appearances, all of them failures.

Another problem is I think we are giving way too much credence to the to some of the people that are for the name change crowd, ie, the John Hoffs, Vivian Nelson's, Glenda Misken's and the JBB's of the world. Check out some of these peoples resumes they are less than impressive. They go around using flashy theme like Englestad is a NAZI and they write articles with facts that are mostly a stretch and easy to refute. However, no one in the media challenges them. They also publish make stupid web pages like UND.Racism.Com and the media then falls right into their trap and makes a big deal out of it.

I think this debate also goes back to the biased issue, conservatism is dead and is not welcome on the nations college campuses, I bet if you look at the number of conservative speakers that have spoken on the UND campuses as opposed to the Liberal speakes it wouldn't even be close. The liberal elite does not want to hear the Dr. Yagley's of the world because they shoot holes in their arugments. They use facts and the liberals don't want the facts, they try to play on people emotions. They want to ram rod their case down our throats, and call people who argue with them racists, no one wants that label attached to them.

Liberals make the false claim to be free thinkers and understanding of others, but they don't want to have a debate with conservatives because they are losing the battles. They blame others for their failures. In retrospect its sad, there will be no debate on this issue, and there won't be any debate because they don't want to make their argument appear flimsy. And this will never change as long as the Liberal establishment has a strangle hold on the educational system in our country.

I look at the UND Fighting Sioux symbol as a symbol of pride and strenght and a winning tradition. I think for the most part a lot of these schools are jealous of UND. Its the haves against the have nots. SCSU doesn't have a Ralph Englestad. NDSU going blindly into the Divison one status has no clue how to make this happen. They too are probably more jealous of the campus to the north. I wonder if NDSU would ask FSU to keep its logo at home if they ever came up to Fargo, the truth is they will never grace the Fargo Dome turf. And like NDSU would turn the money down to get trottled by the Seminoles.

I think UND athletic department has done a lot to educate the fans and make sure that the Logo is treated with repect and honor. You will not hear the crowd chanting like they do at FSU. You don't have a white person dressed up in a native head dress throwing a burning spear in to the football field at the 50 yard line while riding a horse.

On the flip side of that argument last year UND held a Native American ceremony in honor of Coach Walsh was a wonderful ceremony. A very high honor bestowed on the fallen Walsh.

So in retrospect there will probably be dissent againts the UND as long as UND has the Fighting Sioux name. And I guess there will be protests as long as there is someone there to listen.

[Goon]

I hate to interject but really this is so funny! Your insensitivity and greed have painted you into a very uncomfortable corner.

There is a perfect example of what we are talking about. JBB maybe you shouldn't throw stones.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

Please respond to the following assertion:

As the cross is a sacred symbol in Christianity, as the Star of David is the sacred symbol of the Jewish faith, "tatanka" is the sacred symbol of "Wakatanka" (The Great Spirit) to the American Indians of the Plains.

"Tatanka" is sacred in American Indian religion.

A public school is using "tatanka" as a mascot.

Some may construe it to be a public institution endorsing a particular religion and government shall not establish a religion.

Others could construe it to be an insensitive insult, a horrible misuse, of their sacred symbol.

Tatanka? You know it in English as

Bison.

[JBB]

Why dont you hire some Native Americans to raise that objection? It might be similar to the sham of blessing the Englestad Arena. Youv been watching way too much of "Dancing with Wolves", but misery loves company.

[PCM]

Why dont you hire some Native Americans to raise that objection?

Wrong question. The correct question is: Why do some Native Americans choose to object to some names, but not to others?

[RD17]

Why dont you hire some Native Americans to raise that objection? It might be similar to the sham of blessing the Englestad Arena. Youv been watching way too much of "Dancing with Wolves", but misery loves company.

The sad thing about it is, for the most part, it wouldn't be the Native Americans doing the objecting. Sure there's a few 'activists' like Russel Means, but like others have pointed out, for the most part it's the liberal, PC, communist, white crowd that does the organizing and protesting.

We'd all better wake up and realize that the liberals won't quit until this country is a socialist state. There is no reasoning or compromising with these people- once they have succeeded in getting rid of every nickname they feel is offensive to someone, it will be on to attacking the rest of our freedoms.

Liberals- they don't trust American citizens with guns, but they don't have a problem with letting Saddam Hussein keep his. Makes sense to me.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

No. I'm a Christian and I am offended. If the atheists can be offended by, and demand removal of, the Ten Commandments at Fargo City Hall (and any other public locale), I as a Christian can be offended by my government, or its entities, promoting, as I perceive it, another religion.

It could be perceived as promoting an organized religion, namely that of the American Indians, by the promotion of their sacred symbol. That promotion, by a government body, would violate separation.

It'd be a fun case for the ACLU attorneys.

Now, you're sitting there saying, "Rediculous! What a baffoon!" but who would have believed 30 years ago that anyone would howl about Fargo's Ten Commandments monument.

PS - I've never seen "Dances with Wolves." I can't stand Costner unless he's in a baseball film.

[U2Bad1]

I also can't stand Kevin "I have no charisma" Costner.

[JBB]

This argument of yours, besides being a very immature and distasteful

[Taz Boy]

No doubt JBB's thesaurus is smoking after that one.

NDSJC's latest distraction is clear example that there's nothing interesting happening on their own campus. The move to Div I is so distasteful to their alumni base that the AD must direct attention to the immoral goings-on in Grand Forks. "Sure, we're totally void of any logical thought in our own athletic department, but at least we're not racist like those evil white supremists at UND."

Sorry, JBB, it's not working. The public is laughing at you and the jealous rants coming from your farm college. Even the liberal Herald is asking to give it a rest.

You continue to focus on the negative aspects of your world, wallowing in your own misery and self-righteousness. This is understandable given the performance of your glorious Div I football program against the lesser NCC schools this year.

Meanwhile, UND has decided to promote the Fighting Sioux image nationally through hard work, discipline, fierce competition, exemplary academics, and overall success. We're proud of the name-- why are you so ashamed of it?

taz

[ScottM]

Meanwhile, UND has decided to promote the Fighting Sioux image nationally through hard work, discipline, fierce competition, exemplary academics, and overall success.  We're proud of the name-- why are you so ashamed of it?

Taz, I believe Jethro's animosity is derived from the fact that he's upset that UND's dating scene doesn't revolve around farm animals, so he went to the "target rich environment" at 'SU.

Besides playing with a thesarus, I think Jethro needs to buy a book on writing style, as well as a dictionary.

FWIW: There was a big Indian, not "Native American", protest in Mpls yesterday covered by the Strib concerning crime, health services and related matters in the local community. Looking at the pics this morning, I didn't see one sign complaining about UND's nickname, even though the protest was led by Clyde Bellecourt, Vernon's brother. I also didn't see the name "Native American" but "Indian" was pretty common. Maybe the people that need the "protection" of the name change crowd have more important concerns than soothing white, liberal guilt.

[PCM]

True story. At a place where I once worked, we were involved in projects with various tribal organizations. The people we worked with told us that they wanted to be referred to as "American Indians," not "Native Americans."

Therefore, when we wrote about our activities with the tribes in news releases and on the Web, we used the term "American Indians." We got calls and e-mails from people saying that we were being insensitive for not using the policially correct term, "Native Americans."

Even when you call them what they say they want to be called, you get in trouble. You can't win.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

You missed it completely.

If I'm right, a small minority of "the possibly offended" people can claim that they are offended. How many have to be offended before you take action? 1%? 19 plus or minus 4%?

What about the majority of the "possibly offended" who aren't? There's the rub. There's the parallel. You don't understand the situation until it hits home.

Next, in one case you are talking about people. In another case you are talking about established religions.

Saying things, pro or con, about people is Constitutionally protected.

Government entities establishing religions (or using religious icons) is quite another.

Re-read Amendment 1: Before it says free speech, it says shall not establish a religion.

No I'm not using the "you do it too" defense. I'm just getting you ready for the next debate from the American Indian peoples and those of other faiths.

Again, laugh. Who would have believe the Freethinkers would ever dare do what they are doing in Fargo. Who's next?

[JBB]

You have a problem its called denial.

[Bad Eagle]

The "name" issue is derived from the Negro issue. All politically correct surface issues derive from the of quest political professionals to play with names for the American Negro. Most of you probably can't remember, but, before the late 60's and 70's, "black" was positively the most offensive, hurtful thing you could ever say to a Negro person. But that was changed, and changed again. One can always claim something is offensive. Always. This is no real argument or foundation for law, in itself.

It's been a long and profitable enterprise, changing names to suit whims and trumped up charges. It is all cutting edge (i.e., superficial) socialism. America is replete with it. Its is tragic, and represents the triumph of wimp-ism and the junvenile mind. This naivete has been exploited by the anti-America communists, which are strong in the north country up there. If you think I'm wrong, look them up on the net.

Communists did not disappear with the dissolution of the USSR.

They are alive and well, and morever are high-wavers of the American flag, all in the name of equality. We are all alike, no one is different, better, or to be preferred to anyone else. There are no achievers (but greedy, power-crazed communist leaders). We are all one big happy family. Ask Hillary.

So, back to the Indian name, Indians want to be called Indian, in non-Indian circles. In our own circles, we often prefer our own tribal names, from our own languages, but then, no one else would know whom we're talking about. We really are separate peoples, you know. But, if the communists say "Indian" is offensive, and teach young Indians that it is offensive, they succeed in making a riot, which is their goal.

Now, if you don't think my ideas are a threat to the ani-Americans, BadEagle.com was hacked last Thursday. The server company called it a "security exploit." All my forums are lost, and I can add nothing new on the site. I can't even blog, or add a new article. What would you think happened, and why?

This battle for America is real, and more serious than you might think.

I suggest everyone understand political issues as a contest between freedom and tyranny. Sometimes it seems that tyranny is inevitable when we're dealing with a huge society. We can't have a say in everything. All kinds of decisions are made all the time, of which we know nothing. Yet, we are held responsible to abide by the law, regardless.

I say, look into it. Give it your best shot. Indifference, presumption of superiority, will cost you your freedom. Never make the mistake of assuming you don't have enemies. I mean deadly enemies. That's exactly what they want you to think.

Let them call you paranoid. Then sue them for falsely accusing you of mental deficiency, or denigrating your disadvantaged condition. Throw it in their face.

Ah-ho!

[The Sicatoka]

JBB: You don't counter the argument. You claim I'm living in denial. Who's in denial?

[Goon]

JBB: You don't counter the argument. You claim I'm living in denial. Who's in denial?

JBB is denial, again point proved an argument has been posed and he can do nothing but say oh, your wrong and I am right. Back up by no facts at all. So what is his point.

To take a verse from the Movie a few good men. JBB this one is for you.

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

[JBB]

Some of you attempt to dismiss by discrediting individuals that have an opposing opinion. This is not a valid response. Others by answering one argument with another, contrived and often contrite. Others just lash out with any cruel comment they think might hurt. None of it faces your problem or addresses the issue before you. Avoidance and denial come to mind.

Efforts at patronization have so far fallen short. How much is your university willing to do to placate those you offend, or do you plan to simply stand in defiance as the issue erodes the image of your university and its community?

Hopefully, next year only the initials of your university will appear in our game programs and be spoken in our broadcasts. I congratulate the leadership at NDSU for grapple with this issue. Even though you refuse to confront your problem, others around you, no matter how reluctantly, are finally begining to take action. That should certainly be tellin you somehting.

[PCM]

Efforts at patronization have so far fallen short.  How much is your university willing to do to placate those you offend, or do you plan to simply stand in defiance as the issue erodes the image of your university and its community?

Before the new Engelstad Arena opened a little over a year ago, I listened to a Twin Cities journalist on Scott Hennen's Hot Talk program attempt to berate and belittle everyone at UND, in Grand Forks and in North Dakota who supported the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

He claimed that we were all a bunch of backwards hicks who couldn't begin to understand how embarrassing we were to our state and nation. Everyone was laughing at us, he said, and we were simply too stupid and too unenlightened to realize it.

I have to admit that I almost bought it. The volume of negative press this issue generated almost had me believing that for the sake of our fine university and our state's image, perhaps we should consider dropping the Sioux name. It just wasn

[The Sicatoka]

Some of you attempt to dismiss by discrediting individuals that have an opposing opinion.  This is not a valid response.  Others by answering one argument with another, contrived and often contrite.

JBB:

I have posed a very plausible scenario. It is no more contrived than the Freethinkers versus Fargo City Hall Ten Commandments, especially so considering that Betty Ann Gross (a prime mover in the anti-logo debate in SD) had a problem with the Watertown (HS) Arrows logo because it had sacred eagle feathers included (drawn) in it. (She's OK with the name Arrows in of itself.)

It's far from contrived scenario in today's "easily offended" world and you've attempted to dismiss it by attempting to discredit me.

My question is this:

Will American Indians oppose inappropriate use of a religious symbol/icon, or, will offended Christians oppose promoting a religion at a public institution? Or will both call for the change?

[ScottM]

Others by answering one argument with another, contrived and often contrite.

Jethro, do have any idea what "contrived" and "contrite" mean? How do they relate to each other in your assertion?

Come on, let's see that 'SU education in action ... oh, we have. Never mind.