Reasons for Keeping the Name

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

[LeftyZL]

GrahamKracker "By the way, I didn't know they were the Redskins, I always thought they were the Knights, so i guess not "everybody", maybe just those in your circle. peace."

LeftyZL "It's like the Central High School Knights here in town. They were the Redskins, but changed their name. You ask anybody now that knew Central and I will guarantee you that they will say they were the Central Redskins, not the Knights."

GrahamKracker "We are not going to disappear when the name changes (even though I know some of you would like us to disappear now)."

Just to clarify, if you're going to come off pissy and act like a 4 year old to me, make sure you read correctly what I wrote before you go off on me on another tangent.

Your last quote seems to be directly related towards your attitude on what YOU believe our attitude is toward Native Americans. You seem to be extremely bitter towards everyone here with this nick name and I just don't get why. Maybe none of us here are Native American, but being around here educates us of the history of the Sioux and everything they went through in the past. I myself even took a Native American class here to better understand the history of it all. I think you underestimate the number of people on this campus that take pride in the Sioux name. Maybe we're not perfect, but nobody is. Can you tell me why the NCAA is looking at UND to possibly change their name, but not into Florida State? I would think we have more of a Native Heritage than Florida State does. Maybe we should all go after that school too until they change your name.

Anyways, This school is more than a nickname. It's about getting an education. Personally, this nickname debate has gone on far too long. It seems to me the same people that dislike the name are the ones that continually bring it up. Yet, there really is no new information that is brought to anyones attention. If we didn't change it 5 years ago, why would we change it now? If you have this big of an issue with the name, don't bring it to a message board. You should know how most people on this board feel about the name already. Take it to a higher power.

[CVCL]

[GrahamKracker]

You asked for reasons to keep the name. 

1.  The name change won't mean a thing .

The name doesn't hold native people back and hold them as second class.  Reservations do that.  The name is not even a piece of sand in the mountain of so called racism.  So, if your argument is that once all the names are changed, we'll be able to respect ourselves more and the citizens of the US/World will respect us in a greater way, you're kidding yourself.

2.  The name is actually a positive for native peoples if you look closer at the issue.

"If anything, people around the world market their culture and heritage at face value."

My point is that the State of North Dakota and other states with native heritage celebrate that heritage.  Look at our teachings for our youth or even our museums.  If you're a cynic you can blast away at the intentions but I feel they are real.  What have native peoples done to help others understand their culture?  If you don't feel as if you need to, you are sorely mistaken.  Cultures that do not defend themselves (physically or theoretically) do not last. 

3.  There are people that take pride in your name that are not Sioux.

"My right to assume your heritage within mine is the same right that was given to me by the Irish/Scandinavian/+++ ancestors of mine and the other ancestries brought to North America/US".  We are all one.

I have others but I

[jloos]

  Everyone has their opinion.  MY opinion just happens to be the same as a majority of Federally Recognized Sioux Tribes, and that is to change the name.  Thats whats wonderful about this country.  We can all agree to disagree, but the rules that govern the land are made, altered, and dismissed by the officials we elect to those positions. 

  A majority of the Sioux Tribes have spoken, you can either dismiss this and go out and find Natives that agree with you, or you can attempt to become more educated on the issue and comply with the requests of the people we are fighting to honor.

This is not true. What happened was the ultra leftist PC people found at least one Tribal Leader to denounce the name - but the Tribe as a whole has not. As The Sicatoka has already stated (several times ), the vast majority of Native people are not bothered by the name.

You can spend the rest of your life blaming every bad thing that happens to you on your race, but I would suggest against it. Is there racism - of course, but it is not as widespread as you claim. It may appear otherwise if you spends most of your life looking for racism - which is what the PC crowd does.

I will agree with you in defending Native spots in certain programs (esp medicine). People need to realize that the University does not simply hold spots for Native people. Rather they have agreements with Tribes and Indian programs, where Native people are given spots with the understanding they will practice in Native areas.

The Sioux name has been debated to death - in every instance the vast majority of all races want to keep it, including Natives.

[The Sicatoka]

Maybe they need to be educated and shown that hollering "sioux suck sh*t" is honoring the people on and off the Sioux reservations.

Are all Irish people insulted when something similar to that is tossed Notre Dame's way?

Are all Germanic peoples insulted when "Vandals suck" is tossed U of Idaho's way?

Vandal -- a member of the Germanic people ... (www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn)

People who say things like that self-identify as poor fans (cheer for your team, not against the other). You can't fix them until they identify themselves.

[GrahamKracker]

GrahamKracker "By the way, I didn't know they were the Redskins, I always thought they were the Knights, so i guess not "everybody", maybe just those in your circle. peace."

LeftyZL "It's like the Central High School Knights here in town.  They were the Redskins, but changed their name.  You ask anybody now that knew Central and I will guarantee you that they will say they were the Central Redskins, not the Knights."

GrahamKracker "We are not going to disappear when the name changes (even though I know some of you would like us to disappear now)."

Just to clarify, if you're going to come off pissy and act like a 4 year old to me, make sure you read correctly what I wrote before you go off on me on another tangent.

Your last quote seems to be directly related towards your attitude on what YOU believe our attitude is toward Native Americans.  You seem to be extremely bitter towards everyone here with this nick name and I just don't get why.  Maybe none of us here are Native American, but being around here educates us of the history of the Sioux and everything they went through in the past.  I myself even took a Native American class here to better understand the history of it all.  I think you underestimate the number of people on this campus that take pride in the Sioux name.  Maybe we're not perfect, but nobody is.  Can you tell me why the NCAA is looking at UND to possibly change their name, but not into Florida State? I would think we have more of a Native Heritage than Florida State does.  Maybe we should all go after that school too until they change your name.

Anyways, This school is more than a nickname.  It's about getting an education.  Personally, this nickname debate has gone on far too long.  It seems to me the same people that dislike the name are the ones that continually bring it up.  Yet, there really is no new information that is brought to anyones attention.  If we didn't change it 5 years ago, why would we change it now?  If you have this big of an issue with the name, don't bring it to a message board.  You should know how most people on this board feel about the name already.  Take it to a higher power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is being taken to a higher power, as we speak.

Exactly. This name issue is greater than you or I. Its greater than anyone on this campus. When it comes down to it, it has to do with a millionaire that's dead now, and a large sum of money. We were sold out by the SBHE. You know it, I know it, the world knows it. Yet we are in denial about what happened. If it wasn't for Ralphies money, the name would have been in the process of being changed now, and it would have been over with.

FSU has the support of the Seminole Nation. They back their University. The Sioux Nation does not back the Fighting Sioux. I don't know, maybe they (the Seminoles) have a better relationship with the indigenous people of that region.

Why wear a name of a people that don't want you to? Because you don't want "them" to win? Because if the name changes, it will show that they are "right'? I can tell you that I can't wait for the name to change, because when that happens, I can be a part of every part of this UND community. I will be able to attend games, Homecoming, and even concerts.

Also, after the name changes, we can begin a reconciliation process that will unite this campus in a way that will be felt all across this region. Hell, we can even bring our tipis over for tailgating parties. Then we can call ourselves a premiere indian institute.

[The Sicatoka]

I can be a part of every part of this UND community.

You already can today. You are chosing not to. You have self-segregated. And it's a shame.

Hell, we can even bring our tipis over for tailgating parties.

Wasn't there a problem not that long ago with inappropriate behavior in/near a tipi? The concept you propose seems not far off from the same.

[airmail]

[GrahamKracker]

[Corella]

  Also, after the name changes, we can begin a reconciliation process that will unite this campus in a way that will be felt all across this region.  Hell, we can even bring our tipis over for tailgating parties.  Then we can call ourselves a premiere indian institute.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

2 things.

1. Changing the nickname will not unite the campus and alumni, it will have the exact opposite effect.

2. If the nickname is changed, a tipi is the last thing that anyone would want to see during tailgating. Not a flame or justifiable reaction, just the truth.

[GrahamKracker]

You already can today. You are chosing not to. You have self-segregated. And it's a shame.

Wasn't there a problem not that long ago with inappropriate behavior in/near a tipi? The concept you propose seems not far off from the same.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about Sica? I'm the only Native Senator on Student Goverment, I'm a part of various committees, including the American Indian Programs Council, All Nations Veterans BRIDGES, Parking committee, and I'm segregated?

WE weren't drinking in the tipi, we don't allow that. We were out at a sweat during that time. It would be different because we would still not allow drinking, and we would be there to watch it the entire time.

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

Are all Irish people insulted when something similar to that is tossed Notre Dame's way?

Are all Germanic peoples insulted when "Vandals suck" is tossed U of Idaho's way?

Vandal -- a member of the Germanic people ... (www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn)

People who say things like that self-identify as poor fans (cheer for your team, not against the other). You can't fix them until they identify themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know, I'm not Irish, or Deutche. What I do know is that a majority of the Sioux Nations have called for an end of the use of this name and logo, the same people that are so-called "honored" by this institution. Besides, you know this Sica, they have their own countries, Ireland and Germany, This is OUR country. Our children have to deal with this every day, our people have been hurt long enough.

[Corella]

1.  If they feel that way, oh well.  They need to grow up and get w/ the times.  I know of many who don't donate to this University because of the name issue (including Phil Jackson).

2.  Why would a tipi be the last thing?  Would we "still" not be a part of the community on this campus? Probably....but that will change over time.  On average, it takes a student 4.5 years to get an undergrad degree here, that means in 4.5 years from the change of the name this campus will we get fresh faces in that don't have a grudge against the Natives.  an infinite time of dealing with this problem or just 4.5 years?  I choose 4.5 years.

  If this isn't what you mean, please respond.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off the prevailing feeling of being looked down upon has a lot to do with one's perception of things. If I feel that people think I am fat, I am going to find ways to justify that whether I am or not, whether that feeling is even out there or not. If I feel I am ugly, same thing, I can find ways to justify that I am by looking around and seeing people looking at me, whether they are looking at me or not for whatever the reason, maybe they like my shirt, I am going to think they think I am ugly. If you look hard enough for something, you are going to find it.

Why would a tipi be the last thing people want to see if the nickname is changed?? Fairly simple, and there are a number of reasons. Some will feel they are being taunted, whether they are or not. People love the Fighting Sioux nickname. If you have ever lost a girlfriend who broke your heart and then see her out, how do you feel. Pretty steamed to say the least. In the case of the topic at hand it would be no different. The vast majority of tailgaters are alumni who swear by the UND Fighting Sioux. These folks would most likely not take kindly to all of a sudden having a tipi show up prior to an event. Are these things justified, in some cases yes and in some no, but these are what the feelings would be.

[CVCL]

Thanks for your comments, bits and pieces are fine, because I didn't know I was going to be typing my a$$ off...anyways,

1. Change may not mean a thing to you, but if that's the case, why are so many holding onto it like its going out of style? Changing the name won't stop me from getting followed around in some of the rural stores by the owners or cure the diabetes amongst my people, but it will be a beginning. The way of life we attempt to duplicate by putting on a Sioux Jersey or when we talk about honor is not UND's to grab onto, it belongs to the Sioux people, the Sioux people that are still here. I think its unfair to think of the Sioux as only a part of history. We are still here.

a. I didn

[GrahamKracker]

[The Sicatoka]

What are you talking about Sica? I'm the only Native Senator on Student Goverment, I'm a part of various committees, including the American Indian Programs Council, All Nations Veterans BRIDGES, Parking committee, and I'm segregated?

WE weren't drinking in the tipi, we don't allow that. We were out at a sweat during that time. It would be different because we would still not allow drinking, and we would be there to watch it the entire time.

However, you have also chosen to remove yourself from some things that are open to you. I notice you self-identify consistently as "Native" (senator, AI Programs, All Nations). Do other senators self-identify as a "Norwegian Senator on Student Government", etc? Does Dr. Kupchella self-identify as (insert his demographic here, I have no idea what it is, nor do I care or believe it matters) president of UND?

Wasn't the issue that consuming alcohol near a tipi is completely inappropriate behavior (not saying it was done by people who knew that)? And the debris (cans) nearby (or was it in) was inappropriate as well. Putting it at tailgating is putting it in an environment where alcohol is consumed and the chance for a misplaced or strewn can is there as well. I would think it would be wiser to not put the tipi into such an environment if the chance for a mistake by someone unaware exists.

[Sioux-cia]

UND vs you? You don't feel that UND honors you by using the Sioux name for their sports teams. How do you feel about UND honoring the Native American population with the InMed program, or the Nursing program for Native Americans, etc. I don't get honored by UND in that way, I don't get honored by the federal government with programs aimed at righting wrongs done to "my people" throughtout the history of this country, no one is giving me back land that was taken away because of government greed, I don't get a monthly stipend because of governement guilt. Believe me, MY PEOPLE have been unjustly treated throught the history of this nation as well. AND DON'T you dare assume that I think the special treatment YOU get is wrong. But I think you have bigger issues to spend your energy on than in UND calling their sports teams the Fighting Sioux. I see the honor, respect that is bestowed by UND when using the name Sioux. You don't. Doesn't make it wrong.

[jloos]

But it is true.  I'm not pulling this out of my a$$, there are resolutions against the use of the name.  Do you want me to bring these tribal officials to campus?  I sure we can arrange this this fall, maybe that's what we need to do to put the dagger in this beast.

  I don't go looking for racism.  That's like me saying "damn, our tipi just happened to in the way of those eggs", or "shoot, why did I walk on the sidewalk near the road where someone just happened to be spitting "exactly" where I was walking."  I don't go looking for it.  It looks for me.  When I'm in CA, WA, AZ, Winnipeg, etc, etc, etc, this doesn't happen, only in the Dakota's, I wonder that is why?

My point is that these "resolutions" clearly do not depict the majority of members. I think you proved my point about looking for racism - if someone spits on the sidewalk they do so because they are racist? I have no idea what the Teepee incident is about - but I'm assuming it was vandalized. Isn't it just as likely some stupid high school kids that were out egging cars decided to egg the Teepee or some drunk fratboy did the same -out of drunken stupidity. I have had my car egged, as well as broken into. I did not blame this on racists - even though it may have been, it was more likely just your average criminals.

By the way I work for a Native group and I am a member of NALSA. I spent most of today at Clifford Hall listening to the Law School's Indian Law Symposium - which had some very good speakers. Just because I feel different about the Sioux name and logo doesn't make me a racist.

From my experience those few Natives that want the name change are opportunists like Russell Means who try and get their face on TV to make of buck off of those they pretend to represent.

I don't understand why you feel you cannot be Native and support the name. I really do respect those Natives that feel offended by UND using the name, but instead of them crying for a change I think they would be better off lobbying the University to better educate students about the Sioux name. Something that has already been done to a point (PA announcement at hockey games).

If you ever feel like discussing the issue at the Indian Law Center - feel free to stop by. Private message me if you like and we can meet sometime.

[BigGame]

It unfortunate that the majority of this campus has these built up feeling about this situation. I personally would love to cheer on our teams, but can't because of the fact I need to stand up for what I believe in. Many Native, as well as Non-native students as well, feel this way and yearn to just be a part of the sporting events of this university, but what comes first, your morals or a good game?

I guess this is part of the reason I don't understand why you would want to attend UND. You obviously feel the name use is racist as well as most if not all of the University. So why choose to attend a University that you feel is racist toward your ethnicity and culture?

Just to let you know I have been egged and spit upon and I am confident it had nothing to do with my race. So what make you so certain these things happening to you was just because of your ethnicity? I am not saying these things don't happen because of some stupid people, but many things like this happen without race being part of the equation.

I think this thread has been very interesting and informative but I can't agree with you until I personally see a few things change. This is not likely to happen anytime soon because I now live so far away from UND and North Dakota.

[iramurphy]

1.