DI vs. DII

[ecbrevik]

Now to the Mid-Con.  I think this league could have great potential with a few moves of existing teams and a couple of extra moves from DII.  Centenary is leaving soon and Southern Utah will continue to look for a more geographically appropriate league (likely the Big Sky). 

The following set up could fare quite nicely

West - UND, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, UMKC, Oral Roberts

East - Chicago St., IUPUI, W. Illinois, Oakland, IUPU-Ft. Wayne (current independent) and possibly Northern Kentucky of Grand Valley St.

Grand Valley would be a nice rival for Oakland, Northern Kentucky would bring the Cincinnati market.

If you could get Grand Valley, you would even have six football schools and could have a Mid-Con football league.

Such a grouping of schools would give the league stability it has never had and lead to a brighter future.  You could even do like the Horizon league and change the name to rid the demons of the Mid-Con.  Perhaps the Heartland Conference or Great America Conference.

Finally the current Mid-Con has swimming, the one non-revenue sport where UND could possibly be competitive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mid-Con is a bad fit. There is no-one who is a "natural" rivalry and they don't have football. Football would be critical to making a D-I move work, UND will need the gate and other football related revenues. Going independent for football, in my opinion, would be pretty much as bad as moving up without a conference. Swimming, on the other hand, wouldn't be that important in making a D-I move successful because it is not a revenue sport. Sorry if I'm offending any swimmers, its not disrespect to the sport. But quite simply, you have to pay the bills. At UND, your revenue is going to come from football, basketball, and hockey.

Your re-aligned Mid-Con might work, but there are a couple of major problems with it. It requires that NDSU and SDSU go to it. I would think they also prefer Big Sky because of football issues. It also depends on 2 or 3 additional current D-II schools going D-I before football works. That may or may not happen. Given how important football would be to making D-I work, I would much rather see a move to Big Sky if UND goes D-I. Big Sky not only has football, they are a D-IAA football power conference.

[ecbrevik]

So you can't make it to any of the games anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1) Thats not true, they have these things called airplanes, and

2) even if it was, that doesn't mean I no longer care about my alma mater. I still want to see the best possible decisions made for its future.

[bincitysioux]

I just wanted to offer up another scenario regarding the DI vs. DII debate, regarding recruiting. We've talked alot about the caliber of ND athletes and whether or not there are enough quality players in the pool to support two DI programs in the state, or even one for that matter. I went to a very small Class B high school (about 100 students), we didn't have football but were very good in basketball, especially girls' basketball. Our girls went to state five times during my 7th thru 12th grade years, winning once, and finishing runnerup once. We had pretty competetive boys teams as well. During my time there were 8 student-athletes that went on to play college basketball. 3 played JUCO, 3 played NAIA, 1 played DII, and one played DI. The DII player was a Mr. Basketball finalist who played in JUCO (UND-Lake Region), NAIA (Jamestown College), and DII (NDSU). The DI player was a 1995 Miss Basketball winner who went on to play at Weber St. Perhaps if UND were DI, or if NDSU had been at the time, my schools Miss Basketball winner would have stayed in the state. My worry is that 10-15 years down the road, if UND stays DII, that NDSU will have a far superior advantage in recruiting the best ND athletes. 15 years from now, if UND is not playing games against NDSU, the animosity between the two will likely wear off. An incoming freshman will likely want to play for the school that competes at the highest level, if he or she has the opportunity to. I realize right now that while NDSU is early on its transition that it may not be a very big factor, as the playing field is still fairly close, and the sense of being rivals is still there, I'm sure alot of kids growing up have preconceived notions about being a UND fan or NDSU fan. But my fear is that 10, 15, 20 years down the road, that UND will be forced to or only have the opportunity to sign student-athletes that today would only be considered NAIA caliber players. I worry that of the next 8 student-athletes to come out of my school 4 will play in the NAIA and 4 will play in DII, not nessecarily because of their talent, but because the highest quality athletes may now get offers from the two existing DI schools in our region (NDSU or SDSU).

[ecbrevik]

I just wanted to offer up another scenario regarding the DI vs. DII debate, regarding recruiting.  We've talked alot about the caliber of ND athletes and whether or not there are enough quality players in the pool to support two DI programs in the state, or even one for that matter.  I went to a very small Class B high school (about 100 students), we didn't have football but were very good in basketball, especially girls' basketball.  Our girls went to state five times during my 7th thru 12th grade years, winning once, and finishing runnerup once.  We had pretty competetive boys teams as well.  During my time there were 8 student-athletes that went on to play college basketball.  3 played JUCO, 3 played NAIA, 1 played DII, and one played DI.  The DII player was a Mr. Basketball finalist who played in JUCO (UND-Lake Region), NAIA (Jamestown College), and DII (NDSU).  The DI player was a 1995 Miss Basketball winner who went on to play at Weber St.  Perhaps if UND were DI, or if NDSU had been at the time, my schools Miss Basketball winner would have stayed in the state.  My worry is that 10-15 years down the road, if UND stays DII, that NDSU will have a far superior advantage in recruiting the best ND athletes.  15 years from now, if UND is not playing games against NDSU, the animosity between the two will likely wear off.  An incoming freshman will likely want to play for the school that competes at the highest level, if he or she has the opportunity to.  I realize right now that while NDSU is early on its transition that it may not be a very big factor, as the playing field is still fairly close, and the sense of being rivals is still there, I'm sure alot of kids growing up have preconceived notions about being a UND fan or NDSU fan.  But my fear is that 10, 15, 20 years down the road, that UND will be forced to or only have the opportunity to sign student-athletes that today would only be considered NAIA caliber players.  I worry that of the next 8 student-athletes to come out of my school 4 will play in the NAIA and 4 will play in DII, not nessecarily because of their talent, but because the highest quality athletes may now get offers from the two existing DI schools in our region (NDSU or SDSU).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That may be an issue with borderline players, but some athletes are clearly D-I caliber and some are clearly D-II or lower caliber. UND may loose some borderline players to NDSU, but they will also be the undisputed top choice of many North Dakota student-athletes who are good, but not D-I level. And there are more of those in North Dakota than there are solid D-I prospects.

[bincitysioux]

Just to beat a dead horse:

SDSU attendance in their last two years of DII: 5,757/game

SDSU attendance in first two years of DI-AA to date: 8,828/game

35% increase

NDSU attendance in their last two years of DII: 11,094/game

NDSU attendance in first two years of DI-AA to date: 13,533/game

18% increase

UND attendance in past two seasons in DII to date: 9,625/game

Projected UND attendance at DI-AA (26.5% increase): 12,176/game*

*Estimated increase of 26.5% based on SDSU/NDSU increases averaged together (I think this is a plausible number to use in that support of UND's football program is probably more similar to SDSU's than it is to NDSU's because football is considered the secondary sport at SDSU like it is at UND, while football is and always has been considered NDSU's primary sport).

Wouldn't it be nice to see a crowd like we saw at the SCSU game, week in and week out? It could mean an increase of around $230,000 per year in ticket sales as well.

[gjw007]

Just to beat a dead horse:

SDSU attendance in their last two years of DII:              5,757/game

SDSU attendance in first two years of DI-AA to date:      8,828/game

35% increase

NDSU attendance in their last two years of DII:              11,094/game

NDSU attendance in first two years of DI-AA to date:      13,533/game

18% increase

UND attendance in past two seasons in DII to date:          9,625/game

Projected UND attendance at DI-AA (26.5% increase):    12,176/game*

*Estimated increase of 26.5% based on SDSU/NDSU increases averaged together (I think this is a plausible number to use in that support of UND's football program is probably more similar to SDSU's than it is to NDSU's because football is considered the secondary sport at SDSU like it is at UND, while football is and always has been considered NDSU's primary sport).

Wouldn't it be nice to see a crowd like we saw at the SCSU game, week in and week out?  It could mean an increase of around $230,000 per year in ticket sales as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be curious to see what the numbers are once the novelty wears off - say in 5 or 10 years.

[UND92,96]

SDSU played their home game against UC-Davis yesterday at Sioux Falls. According to an article in the Argus-Leader earlier in the week, they apparently had high hopes in terms of attendance--somewhere around 10,000--but only drew a little over 7200. That would have to be considered a disappointment all things considered.

[star2city]

UND attendance in past two seasons in DII to date:          9,625/game

Projected UND attendance at DI-AA (26.5% increase):    12,176/game*

*Estimated increase of 26.5% based on SDSU/NDSU increases averaged together (I think this is a plausible number to use in that support of UND's football program is probably more similar to SDSU's than it is to NDSU's because football is considered the secondary sport at SDSU like it is at UND, while football is and always has been considered NDSU's primary sport).

Wouldn't it be nice to see a crowd like we saw at the SCSU game, week in and week out?  It could mean an increase of around $230,000 per year in ticket sales as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cost of IAA: + 27 schollies x $13,00 / yr (w R&B, books) x 2 (Title IX) =

$700,000 + more travel + more coaches = necessity of a body bag game (this is just for football)

Operating without a full-sport conference like NDSU and SDSU probably adds $1,000,00 annually (lost fan support from poor schedule and few rivals, more guarantees required, poorer recruiting, institution's loss of face, no conference reimbursement)

[4siouxnow]

[

Just a question, why would UND want to make the move to D-1, there are alot of advantages to staying at the top of D-2, I think it's much more attractive to prospective athletes to tell them that they will have a chance to compete for a national champion, than to never really have that opportunity as a mid major, and in most sports there is very little difference in the level of play between the best at D2 and these Mid majors. That is why none of the mid majors want to play UND in most sports. Womens basketball for example there is no way that any of the Missouri Valley schools will play UND they are afraid of what very well may happen.

I think UND has done the right thing by staying right where they are. If you were an athlete would you stick around through this 5 year transition period, when you have no hope of post season play, I think not.

[The Sicatoka]

Saturday, October 8, 2005

UND hosts (a known to be not-so-good) Ferris State: 8800+

DI-AA #9 at home v. DI-AA #12 (NDSU @ Cal Poly): < 7000.

[bincitysioux]

I think UND has done the right thing by staying right where they are. If you were an athlete would you stick around through this 5 year transition period, when you have no hope of post season play, I think not.

There are plenty of Coach Babich's DII recruits still on NDSU's roster, including big contributors like Bobby Babich, Cory Vartanian, and Kyle Steffes.

[sultan]

The latest theme from Coach Bohl at NDSU is that the venues in DI-

AA are a lot noisier. He says crowds are more of a factor now. I think Montana had some some decent crowd noise. At all the other venues the Bison have played at, the crowd noise doesn't seem to of been a factor in any game . There doesn't seem to be any facility that comes close to the crowd factor at the Alerus. SDSU gave Cal Poly a much better game than the Bison did. SDSU has increased their scholarship level very little since since they were in DII. (almost the same) It makes you think the Bison would be in the same place in the NCC like they used to be.

[FargoBison]

Saturday, October 8, 2005

UND hosts (a known to be not-so-good) Ferris State: 8800+

DI-AA #9 at home v. DI-AA #12 (NDSU @ Cal Poly): < 7000.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Cal Poly stadium can only hold 7000 due to half the stadium being torn up and renovated so this isn't a good comparison.

[bincitysioux]

I'm sure crowd noise in I-AA has to be somewhat of change. Average DII attendance is 3,700 per game, while average I-AA attendance is 7,600 per game. Remember, most DII games are not played in venues like the Alerus, Fargodome, or even the Dakotadome I'd assume can get loud at times if it is full. I know NDSU has certainly not played in a environment as hostile as the Alerus can be, but I know Montana St was louder and probably so was all of their other away games than was the whopping 1900 fans at Central Washington. UND is currently drawing over 10,000 fans per game this season. That is more than 92 I-AA programs.

[bincitysioux]

The Cal Poly stadium can only hold 7000 due to half the stadium being torn up and renovated so this isn't a good comparison.

In 2004, Cal-Ploy averaged 8,395 per game. Attendance could be down this year due to the above mentioned renovations. In 2003 they drew 6,700 per game.

[bincitysioux]

Haven't seen anybody else mention it, but I think the big news of the day is that NDSU will be playing U of M in football in 2007. What do you all think? While I understand the game will likely be a slaughtering of NDSU, it is also great exposure, guarantee money, etc. While I love the fact that UND is what it is in DII, challenging themselves rather than playing "cupcakes" all the time, by scheduling the best of DII, i.e. Westchester, Winona St., etc., I do fear that UND is falling behind our long time rivals from the past, and likely our rivals of the future, NDSU. I think a move to DI is inevitable, but I prefer sooner rather than later. I will reiterate what I have said before, that U of M would likely/prefer to bring in UND for a similar guarantee game because of the long and established rivalry we already have with them in hockey. Such a game would also likely be a blowout, but the added exposure and revenue would be tremendous. NDSU will be playing a top notch DI team in its 5th year of transition. I really feel they could probably bring in UND in the 3rd year. Big help. The Forum article said NDSU expects to play that Gophers every 3 or 4 years. I'd think they'd love to have UND as an option in years they don't play the Bissson, maybe even in years they do? With the nickname issue where it is at, I think now is the time. For, football we are going to lose our tremendous post-season advantage starting next season, anyways. The cost of moving up added to the cost of fighting to keep the nickname will be huge, but what better time to do it than when our sports will not be eligable for post-season for five years anyway?

[jack100]

NDSU will be playing a top notch DI team in its 5th year of transition. I really feel they could probably bring in UND in the 3rd year. Big help. The Forum article said NDSU expects to play that Gophers every 3 or 4 years. I'd think they'd love to have UND as an option in years they don't play the Bissson, maybe even in years they do?

If UND wants to play U of M in the 3rd year of DI - they would have to have 57 or more scholarships for the 1st 2 years of transition.

[bisonguy]

If UND wants to play U of M in the 3rd year of DI - they would have to have 57 or more scholarships for the 1st 2 years of transition.

Averaging 57 grants prior to the third season would be impossible in the timeline bincitysioux provided (i.e. the fifth year of NDSU's transition). Going by the "five year timeline", the first year is the exploratory year, in which DII limits (36 grants) are still in effect. The fourth year is the first year that a I-AA team could count as a win towards bowl certification.

[SiouxMeNow]

you might want to ask who Minnesota fears more as a rival....UND in Hockey or ndsu in fb... You guys are getting a check for getting your ass kicked...way to go!!!

[SiouxMeNow]

[bincitysioux]

The fourth year is the first year that a I-AA team could count as a win towards bowl certification.

I see......I was not aware of that. Thanks bisonguy.