Panhel Questions Tourney Site

[kr]

In today's Herald .... http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/n...ews/4294107.htm

The sub-heading is: Group says 'Ralph' doesn't meet cultural diversity criteria, can't host game.

As has been announced, UND is set to host the 2005 Division II men's basketball championship (Elite 8). There is a NCAA minority panel questioning this event/location.

The national championship game/tourney (Women's Division II basketball) back in 1997 was held on the UND campus. My understanding was the only reason the women's championship (final 8) format changed (prior to 1998 the finals were held at the arena of the highest seeded contestant) was due to the fact that it seemed to afford an unfair advantage to the home team (read: UND and NDSU's multiple championships) -- It didn't appear that the use of 'Sioux' had any bearing on the tourney site.

So the question is: will the PC crowd win this battle or was UND's $$ offer so good that the NC$$ will 'allow' the tourney to remain at UND?

[Goon]

The committee, which just completed a comprehensive, 18-month study on the use of American Indian mascots and logos by NCAA sports teams, has concerns that Engelstad Arena was awarded the championship without considering the ongoing controversy of UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and logos. American Indian and other groups have called the nickname offensive.

I am sorry but there really isn't a controversy, about 100 people out of what a 10 of thousands have a axe to grinde against Englestad and the Fighting Sioux name. I mean how many polls and questionares have to be filled out and with the same results stating that the name is fine or they don't care and this small vocal minority thinks there is a problems. Also SI did a poll on Indian logo and they came up with the same thing, this is the same paper that did a very pointed article on the UND name. Of course the so called smart people in this debate, you know the ones: the Johnny Hoffs, the Pucker The Vivian Nelson, Glenda Miskens, and finally the JBB's (Of course half of these people are big time losers) of the world, think they know more and right away say oh that study is no good it has no credibility.

Incidently they are all white hand wringing Liberals that will probably never do an honest days work in their life.

[jimdahl]

Here's the NCAA news article. It's a bit dull, but contains some real nuggets of insight into how the NCAA plans to deal with the Indian mascot issue:

In fact, the MOIC believes that the tradition of using American Indian mascots ought to be retired; however, the committee realizes and supports member institutions' rights to determine what their mascot should be, as long as institutions ensure the use is appropriate.

...

the MOIC is recommending that schools conduct a review "of the depiction of and behaviors associated with the use by their athletics teams, cheerleaders, band members, other auxiliary groups and fans."

...

To make sure the review is meaningful, the MOIC is asking that legislation be adopted to require the self-analysis to be submitted as part of the athletics certification process for Division I institutions or the self-assessment process for Divisions II and III institutions. Division I institutions would have to conduct the review regardless of where they fall in the certification cycle.

...

Conferences would be required to review policies regarding contests with institutions using American Indian mascots or nicknames, and to complete a self-analysis checklist for conference championship venues and host institutions. At the NCAA level, the MOIC would work with staff to establish criteria for NCAA championships sites that eliminate the use of American Indian mascots, logos and symbols in arena signage, championships publications and announcements.

http://www.ncaa.org/news/2002/20021014/awi...de/3921n08.html

So, the big news seems to be that the NCAA is now going to make schools with Indian mascots regularly certify that they're using them respectfully. As long as Florida State and Illinois are there for us, any resolutions from the NCAA will be similar toothless.

However, the interesting point is the crackdown on tournaments/championships at Indian-mascot schools. Sounds like if we want to hold a tournament in Engelstad we have to obscure every Indian-head logo and every sign that references "Sioux". Looks like they're also encouraging conferences to adopt the same rules for conference tournaments.

[teamsioux]

Of course the so called smart people in this debate, you know the ones: the Johnny Hoffs, the Pucker The Vivian Nelson, Glenda Miskens, and finally the JBB's (Of course half of these people are big time losers) of the world, think they know more and right away say oh that study is no good it has no credibility.

Just curious, which half of these are not losers?

[ScottM]

I wonder if UND has an agreement to host the tourneys. If so, UND might be able to sue (no pun intended ) the NC$$ for breach of contract.

I tend to agree with Jim's assessment of the NC$$ rules though. More window dressing than anything. If the NC$$ forced UND, FSU, etc. to change their names they'd probably be on the hook for big $$$ on lost royalties, logo changes, e.g., the logos in REA, not to mention most schools have bigger fish to fry than worrying about PC BS.

[Goon]

I guess I miss spoke it should say all of them are losers. I mean really Misken is being sue for character assasination, Nelson is another loser that was flunked out of UND'S Med school, of course Misken took her under her wing. We have seen JBB (I am convinced he is a troll from the other school) and Hoff's Work. Oh yeah Pucker wasn't that idiot kicked off of USCHO...

Add Russell Means to the mix he is a convicted Felon, who has no acting ability at all. Wow, there are some serious credibility issues with the Pro-name change croud... As they say in Scott_M's world the defense rests

[teamsioux]

Goon, that's more like it.

[JBB]

This has to be about the funniest, and satisfying thread Ive seen in a long time! Maybe RE will cough up more $ and make all of your dreams come true?

[The Sicatoka]

JBB: Remember last year's D-I mens BB tourney on CBS? Remember the west regional in San Diego, hosted by the SDSU? What'd it say on their BB floor in eight-foot letter? Aztecs.

Tell me again about the NCAA.

[ScottM]

I love it when FSU's football field with its Seminole logos shows up in NC$$ promos. Same with UND's older logo when we won the 2000 hockey Title. Yep, no hypocrisy in Indie or Overland Park.

[Goon]

JBB, not to pick one you, but with that being said, oh well. Here is a quote from a real ative Native American his name is David Yeagley he is not white, (In other words he is not some white liberal college professor or some white half wit like John Hoff trying to tell natives how they should think) Maybe some of yall should listen to what he others have to say. Because most of the people in your group doing a lot of talking but not a lot of listening. Question have you guys ever stop to listen to what is actually being said? Probably not... You maybe doing more harm than good. Because if they ever, I mean if which is a huge stretch, changed the name, is it all of a sudden going to change the lives of native American suffering from poverty on the state reservations, probably not... Your going to piss off a lot of Natives by changing it. Also your going to bring a lot of resentment aimed at natives. Your going to be doing more damage than good. But then we can turn around and point our fingers at you guys and say don't blame us, blame the hand wringers. Maybe some of you guys should actually worry about something more important, by the way incase you haven't noticed there is a war going on, I am shocked your not balling about the poor bastards down in Gitmo suffering at the hands of the USA military, shouldn't you be carrying flowers and marching on the capital. What about poor Iraq. Jesus, some of these people pi$$ me off...

I'm all for fighting when there's something to fight about. But, in my view, this is not the case at UND. Why should any Indian object if a university has an Indian warrior as its emblem? The purpose of a mascot is to inspire the school's athletes to fight hard and win. That the school chose an Indian to represent its fighting spirit is a sign of respect. It shows an admiration for the courage and manliness of the Sioux warrior, who laid so many whites in their graves just a few generations ago.

[bisonguy]

The only problem I have with the Sioux nickname is the double standard that appears when a negative comment is made about it. When a fan from one of UND's opponents yells "Sue (purposely misspelled to not offend anyone) suck!", it's made into a big deal about offending the Sioux heritage. Why doesn't anyone get offended when UND has a losing season, isn't that offending Sioux heritage? Why can UND fans say "(insert team mascot here) suck!" without any uproar of offending (insert team mascot here).

Why doesn't UND have any Native American sounding fight songs? Florida State and Illinois do. It seems that would help display admiration and embrace the culture of the chosen mascot.

Goon,

On the topic of nationalism, real nice display of it by the UND fans at the Fargodome on saturday. Anybody screaming "Bison suck" and "Go Sioux" during the presentation of our national colors should be dropped in the middle of Iraq with a sign that says "Iraq sucks". That was the greatest display of disrespect to the men and women that sacrficed their lives, to preserve all that we hold sacred that I have ever witnessed. I guess they were just showing off the true colors of UND, green and commie pink.

[The Sicatoka]

bisonguy:

Fair points. I've long advocated all fans to cheer for their team and not against the other. "Let's go Sioux!" is a great example. "Here we go Bison, here we go" is another, well, when it lacks a particular refrain at least.

Regarding "pink," at least we're not yellow.

And songs? Hey, one of the protesters at UND has a problem with UND's fight song that has a "tom-tom" beat.

[bisonguy]

And songs? Hey, one of the protesters at UND has a problem with UND's fight song that has a "tom-tom" beat.

Now that's stretching for something to protest about.

[The Sicatoka]

Stretching for something to protest about?

Welcome to our world.

[jimdahl]

The only problem I have with the Sioux nickname is the double standard that appears when a negative comment is made about it. When a fan from one of UND's opponents yells "Sue (purposely misspelled to not offend anyone) suck!", it's made into a big deal about offending the Sioux heritage. Why doesn't anyone get offended when UND has a losing season, isn't that offending Sioux heritage? Why can UND fans say "(insert team mascot here) suck!" without any uproar of offending (insert team mascot here).

Why doesn't UND have any Native American sounding fight songs? Florida State and Illinois do. It seems that would help display admiration and embrace the culture of the chosen mascot.

I agree entirely. However, the double-standard is NOT the choice of Sioux-name supporters, but rather an awkward compromise to try to stretch the life of the nickname as long as possible.

"Fight on Sioux" was traditionally opened with a long Indian-style drumbeat, and is still a bit of a native sounding song (in fact, it was not used for a few years in the early 90s for that reason). The entire student section at hockey games used to (in the 80s) do an Indian chant led by the band.

The removal of all Native American sounding chants/cheers/songs is part of the attempt of UND to prove that 'Sioux' is not a mascot. Apparently, some people believe that the team using Native-sounding cheers actually dishonors them in the same way as a caricature (because it's not authentic and its being done by non-Natives).

Personally, I'd rather see the Sioux name used with all of its heritage, or a new name chosen instead of this compromise in which everyone has to tiptoe around the name. You can't have it both ways, if it really is honorable instead of disrespectful, then honor the entire culture like you used to.

[PCM]

I also agree with bisonguy about the double standard. You can chalk it up to the unfortunate result of the politically correct hypersensitivity over the use of words. (And just to be clear, conservatives can be just as guilty of playing this game as liberals.)

I have some Scandinavian blood in my veins. Do you think anyone would take me seriously if I complained about the negative Scandinavian stereotypes perpetuated by the Minnesota Vikings? If I said I was offended or deeply hurt every time the Viking warrior mascot blew that stupid horn or by all the purple-faced Viking fans wearing blonde braids and horned helmets or by the violent, war-like stereotypical image of Scandinavians, would people sympathize with me? Or would they tell me that I was being unreasonably oversensitive?

I also have Irish background, but I don't take it personally when someone says, "The Irish suck." Why? Because I know that the insult is intended for Notre Dame's athletic teams and isn't aimed at me, people of Irish descent or the people of Ireland in general. What reasonable person would think otherwise? What reasonable person would think that a university would purposely select a racially derogatory nickname for the purpose of insulting, offending or oppressing a minority?

If I spent enough time, money and effort and had the media behind me, perhaps I could persuade 20 percent of the Scandinavian-Americans or Irish-Americans in the country to say that they're offended by the racist, stereotypical portrayals of Scandinavian and Irish people. But just because I can get a small minority of a small minority to agree with me, does that mean that I can dictate to the vast majority of Americans who disagree with me? What reasonable person would expect otherwise?

I have no right to tell someone that they shouldn