Question about changing the nickname and logo

[sauce]

I maybe oversimplifying the culture of the Sioux and the whole Warrior aspect of it...But I think when we talk about the Sioux as a name for our athletic program it does revolve around the "warrior" stereotype and not all the other characteristics that go along with the Sioux culture...That maybe a wrong way to view it, but when an athletic team for this University gets ready for a game, the athletes as well as the general population aren't thinking about all the other aspects revolving around the Sioux culture. Like I said, it may not be the right way to view it, but that's the "athletic" way to view it IMO...I know there are many other aspects about the Sioux culture that the general public doesn't ever get to see or even knows about, but that goes back to the whole educating this town and area about the traditions of the Sioux people. I wish I knew more Native Americans where I could speak my mind and try to be constructive about this situation to them so we could resolve this issue and put it to rest once and for all, but I'm in the vast minority of people that even give any of these issues a thought. And I'm a student at this University and grew up here. I honestly think if we had an open forum or session where the public could come and ask questions about the Sioux culture to the people of the Sioux nation, that would solve a lot of our problems. Because all we know right now is some people want it changed and others want the name to stay. This isn't that difficult of a situation to understand and come to a resolution that is favorable for everyone. I just wish there were more people like me who were dedicated to keeping the name, yet wanting to learn more about the Sioux culture and what makes the Sioux people have such a hatred for anyone that does support the name. Because we aren't trying to cause conflict, we are trying to show support for the University and the athletic program in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really respect the fact that you seem to genuinely want to learn about Sioux culture. I think its cool. I also wish that more of the people who supported the nickname felt this way. I guess that was the main motivation behind my posts. I get so frustrated by people saying honor this, honor that, but not really caring.

[The Sicatoka]

The bison being considered sacred is a Sioux concept, not a bison one.

The whole granite eagle feather argument is presented in the context of Sioux concepts and beliefs.

The concept presented is consideration of what is sacred to a portion of the student body.

- There are Lahkota Sioux heritage students at NDSU so it is appropriate discussion.

- However, what is on NDSU's basketball floor is paint, not a (sacred) bison.

[bisonguy]

The concept presented is consideration of what is sacred to a portion of the student body.

- There are Lahkota Sioux heritage students at NDSU so it is appropriate discussion.

- However, what is on NDSU's basketball floor is paint, not a (sacred) bison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it's paint and not a sacred bison. I agree with the concept, but not the argument used. You're adding an extra degree of separation in the bison scenario. NDSU's nickname is bison, and last I checked, there were no students at NDSU that are bison. Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember a herd of bison in front of the BSA protesting the nickname.

If NDSU had some prairie grass or sedges painted on center court it might be a parallel.

[The Sicatoka]

Let's try again:

A group of students considers something sacred and says images of it on a floor should not be walked on.

Now, am I talking about images of eagle feathers or bison as the sacred thing?

The issue "sauce" brought up isn't the entirety of UND's logo, just the sacred eagle feathers. "sauce" has a problem with the eagle feathers depicted in the granite. It is no different than the bison depicted on a hardcourt.

The core issue in this particular sub-discussion is sacred things to people of a particular religion. The core issue has extensions to wherever those sacred things may fall. (And yes, they are all images, not actuals, in each case as well.)

[bisonguy]

The core issue in this particular sub-discussion is sacred things to people of a particular religion. The core issue has extensions to wherever those sacred things may fall. (And yes, they are all images, not actuals, in each case as well.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. This wouldn't even be a discussion if this was www.FlickertailSports.com.

[The Sicatoka]

Some Sioux in South Dakota protested the eagle feathers on the arrow logo on the helmet of the Watertown (HS) Arrows football team saying it was disrespectful to the sacred eagle feathers.

If people will question sacred eagle feathers there, why won't they question the sacred bison painted on a basketball court? You need to understand this particular sub-context isn't a "Sioux name" question; this is a respect of another religion's sacred artifacts question: eagle feathers, bison.

[bisonguy]

..... this is a respect of another religion's sacred artifacts question: eagle feathers, bison.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly, but it's an even greater question in the context when that religion's people are used as a nickname and are supposedly being honored by it's use.

Have any protests about the carpet in the Oval Office occurred?

[The Sicatoka]

Have any protests about the carpet in the Oval Office occurred?

... or the granite in the entry of the CIA Headquarters?

Ask sauce. I only see carpet fibers and granite in those locations. But apparently you now understand the nuances.

[schmidtdoggydog]

The Capital Times - scroll down for UW's policy regarding the scheduling of teams with American Indian names, logos and mascots

Prohibited list: The board approved inclusion in the minutes a list of 17 Division I and II schools UW teams are prohibited from scheduling because they're in violation of the school's policy against playing teams with American Indian names, logos or mascots.

In Division I, they are: Alcorn State (Braves), Arkansas State (Indians), Bradley (Braves), Central Michigan (Chippewas), William & Mary (Tribe), Florida State (Seminoles), Louisiana Monroe (Indians) and Utah (Utes).

In Division II, they are: Catawba (Indians), Indiana of Pennsylvania (Indians), Midwestern State (Indians/Lady Indians), Northeastern State (Redmen/Lady Reds), Southeastern Oklahoma State (Savages), West Georgia (Braves), Stonehill (Chieftains), North Carolina Pembroke (Braves) and North Dakota (Fighting Sioux) in all sports but hockey.

Traditional rivals and conference opponents are exempt from the policy. Those include the Big Ten's Illinois (Fighting Illini) and the WCHA's North Dakota. Marquette was on the list of exceptions when the policy was enacted in 1993 because at that time its nickname was Warriors.

[NDSU grad]

The Capital Times - scroll down for UW's policy regarding the scheduling of teams with American Indian names, logos and mascots

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's similar to the University of Iowa's policy. They cancelled a baseball game with Bradley (Braves) last spring, but of course have no trouble playing Illinois. So bascially, "we're against exploiting Native American culture, unless of course there's a bunch of money involved". The quotes are mine.

[KnowtheFacts]

Quick?  What is Marquette's new name?  I couldn't tell you, to me the first thing that pops into my head is Warriors....always will.  UND will always be The Fighting Sioux.  I have to think really hard to remeber what Grand Forks Centrals current name is.  First thing that comes to mind is Redskins.  How many years ago di they change the name?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think Quick. What was UND's old name? Do you remember, or did you have to go look it up. New traditions will eventually replace the old ones. And there will still be hockey fans cheering their team. Did you know that in the 1930's when UND Students changed the name to Sioux that There was a huge opposition? The main reason for the opposition was that there was a TRADITION at the school that they had and didn't want changed. People were happy with the mascot/logo/name and didnt want it changed. If it can change once and succeed, it can change again. And so much for the better. If we had a different logo/theme, we could have a mascot, have cheers that don't offend, not worry about NCAA championship games, we could do so much more....

[Diggler]

Think Quick.  What was UND's old name?  Do you remember, or did you have to go look it up. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Flickertails. No I didn't have to look it up.

As far as the new nickname not offending people, I doubt that is true either. While it may not offend you or I, there will be someone out there who will for some reason be offended by the name. You can never make everyone happy about everything, changing UND's nickname certainly won't change this.

[IowaBison]

[ESPNInsider]

If we had a different logo/theme, we could have a mascot, have cheers that don't offend, not worry about NCAA championship games, we could do so much more....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What cheers would we have different that don't offend? I think F*^% the Gophers/Bison would be offensive if we were the Flickertails too

[KnowtheFacts]

What cheers would we have different that don't offend? I think F*^% the Gophers/Bison would be offensive if we were the Flickertails too

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay Espninsider, let me be more specific as you found the one little tiny thing I didnt clarify without responding to the entirety of what I was saying.

"have cheers that dont offend the people we purport to honor."

[Diggler]

What cheers are those? Let's Go Sioux?

[ESPNInsider]

Okay Espninsider, let me be more specific as you found the one little tiny thing I didnt clarify without responding to the entirety of what I was saying.

"have cheers that dont offend the people we purport to honor."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still not sure what cheer you would be talking about? You must be talking about the things that others yell?? Not sure why we would do cheers to offend the people who we name our team for? Am I way off here though?

And why could we do "so much more" couldn't we do a lot with the name, to build the relationship with the Sioux tribes?

[MafiaMan]

I don't know what Delta Gamma is, I assume its a frat/sorority.