NDSU decides to move to D-I

[mksioux]

"...at least for Grand Forks."

It's already starting folks. JBB's condescending comment is just the beginning. If UND stays put, Sioux fans better get used to all the Div. II jokes and small-time college references from NDSU fans. It will all be legitimate too.

Throw logic out the window. NDSU being in a better class than UND is unacceptable. Sicatoka, I hope you're right. But in case you're not, here's my rant:

A lot of the negativity toward NDSU on this board is nothing more than frustration and envy. Face it. Us Sioux fans have long considered UND the flagship university of this state. Sioux fans have taken pride in the fact that Sioux hockey is the only DI sport in the state and that no matter what NDSU did, it was always just a little beneath UND. I know NDSU moving up and UND staying put is hard pill for me to swallow because in my mind NDSU should NEVER be in a better class than UND...in ANYTHING.

I don't care if NDSU loses money while it establishes itself as a DI program. I don't care if it gets killed in a few games. That won't make me feel better. A few years down the road, will it really matter if UND has a better record than NDSU because it beats up on Augustana, Crookston, Duluth, and Moorhead? Will it really matter whose athletic department is losing money? Will it really matter that NDSU will never again win a national championship in non-football sports? To me, none of this matters. At the end of the day, NDSU will be DI and UND will be DII. Enough said. Should blind competition dictate a school's decision whether to move to DI? Absolutely it should.

To those arguing against UND moving or saying how stupid NDSU's decision is, I say this: Even if you think you have the facts and figures on your side, deep down, you wish UND were going too. I know I do.

[The Sicatoka]

What 'mksioux' has just described is the "domino" theory put in motion by NDSU.

It's working.

[mksioux]

I realize what they're trying to do, but does UND stay put just to spite that theory? That would be stupider than taking the bait IMO. The reality is that somebody had to do it first. Is UND being pressured into it? Probably. But who cares? Maybe a little outside pressure from it's biggest rival is just what UND needed to stop being complacent. This decision is long overdue.

[ScottM]

I'd hope that whomever makes the decision, which is probably inevitable, for UND to go D1 is prepared to use a better excuse than "watered down competition" or SU is a natural rival. In addition, they'd better have a real nice plan to finance it too, beyond sticking it to the students in the form of tuition increases and/or program cuts. Alumni, get your wallets out because we will be hit up for donations, increased ticket prices and all of the other trappings of D1 sports, so it's time to warmup the pen.

Envious of SU? What are you smoking? Not sure how it is in the hinterlands, but in MSP UND has a much better reputation than SU. Much of that is from academics, but a good measure is from its hockey program and the rivalry with Minnesota. Having a DIII athletic program sure hasn't hurt St. Thomas which is roughly comparable to UND and SU in size and course offerings, especially when it just raised $100 million in its last fundraising campaign.

[Taz Boy]

I'm perfectly happy having NDSU live in Div IAA obscurity. It will rob their program of local talent as well as $$. Far away games against unfamiliar teams will add to the decline in fan base. It's going to be a tough decade for the green n gold, and they know it.

I think UND is doing just fine as a Div II school with Div I hockey. I like watching UND's local/regional players in football and basketball compete against other nearby schools. If the bulk of the NCC should eventually migrate towards IAA, then maybe we can re-kindle the rivalries again at that level. In the meantime, I will miss the Sioux playing (and beating) the Bison.

taz

[bisonguy]

Here's a few comments from another viewpoint:

-There is not a domino effect going on in the NCC. SDSU's president is very big on moving up to D1 and his decision is independent of NDSU or UNC. I think the NCC would be able to reload for any lost members. The schools may not be as strong initially as the schools going D1, but imagine what a school like Winona could do with upping their football scholarships from 14 or 15 to 36. The "watering down" of the division may be countered with some D1 schools moving down to D2.

A couple misc. things.

-All D1BBall teams receive money from the NCAA tournament, whether they win it or placed last in their conference. If a D1 BBall team is not eligible for postseason play in the NCAA touney, they can be eligible for other tourneys, such as the NIT. If NDSU was good enough, they could get into the NIT their fifth season as a D1 team.

-I don't think NDSU wants the NCC to move up as a whole. There would be way too many hoops to jump through for postseason play. Even after meeting eligibilty requirements, who wants to give up a playoff spot to a new conference?(NSIC, anyone?) There are also serious talks of lowering the BBall postseason penalty to eight years, as opposed to remaining at 13 for independents or new conferences. NDSU wants a travel partner or two to join an established conference.

Here's a few possible concerns about a possible D1 move by UND:

-Fan support. Yes, I said fan support. I know this may stir up quite a few of you, but UND has a lot of fair weather fans. How full was the arena the years before UND won their last title in hockey? Half? How full was it last year with a non-winning record? How full will REA be if UND has 3 or 4 consecutive losing seasons?

How many people attended UND football games a few years back? How many now? How many would attend if UND is getting beat up at the 1AA level? NDSU has averaged at least 11,000 per game for ten years with some fairly average seasons, and a low turnout for the UNO game last year. A packed Alerus center would barely bring UND into the top 20 in attendance. A packed Fargodome would bring NDSU into the top 5. Basketball facilities are a wash. NDSU is revamping the BSA, and can use the Fargodome if need be, just as UND would have REA or the Alerus at their disposal. Speaking of the Alerus, what if those in control of the Alerus changed their mind about UND football? What if they figured pulling in the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears would be better for themselves than UND football? What if they increased UND's lease to a ridiculous amount?A stipulation of NDSU's $0.01 land lease to the Fargodome is that it has to be at NDSU's disposal, first and foremost, for sporting events.

UND is not NDSU, and Grand Forks is not Fargo.

There are a lot of questions and unknowns in the future for UND in a move to D1. The questions MUST be answered for the best interest of UND, and not just to keep up with the Jones'. Personally, I feel UND should stay at the D2 level and try to help stengthen the division. Maybe ten years down the road, UND can assess the situation and see if UND and Grand Forks can support a D1 program. I just don't think with adding women's hockey and with the population of the Grand Forks area, that a move to a D1 program would truly be in the best interest of UND.

See you guys Oct. 12th!

[ScottM]

UND keeping up with the Jones'? How much does it grate the Stream Yellow crowd that UND has the only D1 program in the state? While we routinely play national schools like Michigan, Boston College, Wisconsin, etc., you'll have the pleasure of perhaps seeing Idaho State, Creighton or Oral Roberts University play. Wow.

Half full before the '00 Title? Please. Shows how much the farm crowd knows about UND hockey.

SU's future is so well laid out and bright on paper. It's easy manipulating numbers to suit your own agenda. Another issue is making those numbers work when the bills show up.

Have fun attending those BB games in Illinois with no-name U.

[jimdahl]

-Fan support. Yes, I said fan support. I know this may stir up quite a few of you, but UND has a lot of fair weather fans. How full was the arena the years before UND won their last title in hockey? Half? How full was it last year with a non-winning record? How full will REA be if UND has 3 or 4 consecutive losing seasons?

How many people attended UND football games a few years back? How many now? How many would attend if UND is getting beat up at the 1AA level? NDSU has averaged at least 11,000 per game for ten years with some fairly average seasons, and a low turnout for the UNO game last year. A packed Alerus center would barely bring UND into the top 20 in attendance. A packed Fargodome would bring NDSU into the top 5.

I've made this point myself many times in regard to hockey. It's true that in the early 90s there were plenty of hockey games with only 3000-4000 people. Now they fill up the 11,000+ seat arena every game. While my gut instinct is to attribute it to the success of the program and the excitement over the new facility, we certainly can't prove that it's not a permanent demographic shift.

I actually have the same question about NDSU: How many fans will show up to watch NDSU play Oral Roberts? Assuming that NDSU will continuously sell out the FargoDome is a BIG assumption -- NDSU can't do it now playing traditional rivals. Are NDSU fans really THAT much more excited to be hosting unknown D-IAA teams? Will dramatically rising ticket prices (to offset new costs) not put downward pressure on attendance? Though NDSU hasn't won a national championship in a few years, they haven't had a losing season since 1975. Who knows how fans will react to losing against no-name D-IAA schools.

Much like I've often argued that UND should not jump to D-IAA without more of the NCC, I think NDSU's ONLY chance of this working out economically is if they can bring enough of their traditional rivals with them. Familiar NCC opponents help both sides of the economic equation: sell more tickets and lower costs.

[bisonguy]

Wow, a disgruntled UND fan.

A D1 PROGRAM is not comprised of a single D1 sport. Especially not one that only has D1 or D3, and is defined as a secondary sport by NCAA bylaws. Could NDSU have a D1 program with a water polo team, seeing as there isn't a D2 or D3? That's the equivalent of your "program".

As far as hockey goes, I get my info from my father-in-law, who unfortunately is a Fighting Sioux Club member, UND men's hockey, soon-to-be women's hockey, football, men's and women's basketball season ticket holding, hasn't missed more than three home hockey games since 1978, going to hook me up with a luxury suite for a couple hockey games kinda guy. Maybe I misstated the seasons, but he has repeatedly told me how fickle UND fans are. He has told me of championship seasons that saw the Old Ralph half-full, after a couple lackluster seasons. Football attendance numbers are easier to come by, and the numbers have increased with success. How many people attended your season opener? 9,277. Are the people of the Grand Cities already losing interest in UND football? That's over 1,000 less than was averaged last year, including hosting NDSU, UND's only sellout. Sorry to say it Scott, but hockey is a sport that has reached a glass ceiling. It's a paradox to increase the fan support of hockey. To reach a broader fanbase, the elements that attract the hardcore fans have to be sacrificed. If you happen to watch ESPN or any other sport shows, you've probably heard about the NHL's financial stuggles.

Have fun attending those BB games in Crookston.

[jimdahl]

A D1 PROGRAM is not comprised of a single D1 sport. Especially not one that only has D1 or D3, and is defined as a secondary sport by NCAA bylaws. Could NDSU have a D1 program with a water polo team, seeing as there isn't a D2 or D3? That's the equivalent of your "program".

Sorry to say it Scott, but hockey is a sport that has reached a glass ceiling. It's a paradox to increase the fan support of hockey. To reach a broader fanbase, the elements that attract the hardcore fans have to be sacrificed. If you happen to watch ESPN or any other sport shows, you've probably heard about the NHL's financial stuggles.

How quickly Bison fans forget that the only reason the school is moving to D-IAA is because they couldn't convince the taxpayers of Fargo to fund a D-I hockey team. This is another glory-grabbing opportunity for NDSU's president to make "big improvements" on his watch. Fortunately for him, changing divisions didn't require a vote of the people like building a hockey arena did.

Is there any doubt that if NDSU were starting up a $2m D-I hockey program this year that they would not even be considering this jump?

[bisonguy]

Jim,

Here's your kinder, friendlier reply. You heard what I'm saying. I think UND should wait and see what kind of fan support is able to be sustained in football and hockey. UND is definitely on an upswing in attendance, and needs to see if it might level off or drop somewhat.

Gene Taylor has stated that Bison football tickets would increase from $2-4

per game. That was the figure used in all the reports and surveys. NDSU knows that attendance would drop off if prices go up too much. I wasn't assuming the Fargodome would sell out. I guess I didn't clarify that I was talking maximum capacity, sort of a best case scenario. The NDSU/Maine game was headed for a sellout, with over 17,000 seats sold a week before last's year scheduled game.

As far as no name schools, I've heard of Oral Roberts a lot more than a D2 school like Millersville. How about the Ivy League? They're D1AA. A D1 school that has a brief moment of glory, such as winning a round or two in the BB tourney, can receive a lot more exposure than a dominating D2 program with umpteen national championships. I believe that SDSU will be making the move up, as many close to the SDSU athletic program have been stating. That would make for a travel partner, and hopefully a ticket to the Big Sky, bringing the number of schools up to ten. Then, down the road, maybe UND,USD, and a couple others(preferrably former NCC's) could come along, and create two different divisions in the Big Sky. That's my ideal scenario.

Best of luck to UND this season!

[bisonguy]

Jim,

Hockey is not as popular in Fargo as it is in the Grand Forks region. If it was, I'm sure NDSU would have a D1 hockey team. When NDSU had a club team, they dominated and won a couple championships, but had absolutely no fan support. All one has to do is look at the high school level-

the Grand Forks region is dominant in hockey, the Fargo teams dominate in football.

[jimdahl]

As far as no name schools, I've heard of Oral Roberts a lot more than a D2 school like Millersville. How about the Ivy League? They're D1AA. A D1 school that has a brief moment of glory, such as winning a round or two in the BB tourney, can receive a lot more exposure than a dominating D2 program with umpteen national championships.

Then, down the road, maybe UND,USD, and a couple others(preferrably former NCC's) could come along, and create two different divisions in the Big Sky. That's my ideal scenario.

Sorry I was unclear -- obviously most D-IAA programs have more name recognition than most D-II programs. I just meant that moving to D-IAA doesn't mean NDSU is going to start playing Notre Dame or Wisconsin. Are Bison fans really going to get more excited about playing Oral Roberts (an admittedly more famous school) than playing Northern Colorado (a traditional rival)?

I agree 100% on the importance of the Divisions. I would consider a UND women's basketball season much more successful if they won a single first round game in the NCAA Division I tournament than if they won the D-II championship.

As far as Big Sky -- they've stated that they are not interested in NDSU joining because of the travel. I think the lack of conference affiliation and possible outcome may be one of the parts of this transition that most surprise NDSU fans. While it's possible that Big Sky may relent, I think some of the more likely outcomes could be very disappointing. My ideal situation is very close to yours: get enough of the NCC to jump that they can form their own conference (or half-conference, e.g. Big Sky East) such that the jump to I-AA puts less economic pressure on all of those who choose to jump.

[Riverman]

How quickly Bison fans forget that the only reason the school is moving to D-IAA is because they couldn't convince the taxpayers of Fargo to fund a D-I hockey team. This is another glory-grabbing opportunity for NDSU's president to make "big improvements" on his watch. Fortunately for him, changing divisions didn't require a vote of the people like building a hockey arena did.

Is there any doubt that if NDSU were starting up a $2m D-I hockey program this year that they would not even be considering this jump?

[ScottM]

Disgruntled? Hardly. Typical bison fan, though. "Oh we're in Fargo, so we must be better. Pass the Milwaukee's Best ... I have to be to work at the Mini Mart by 6." When UND was receiving its first super computers, SU was proudly taking possession of a Lawerence Welk record collection. I suppose that fits both schools' personalities though. Having lived in Fargo much of my life, I get back there once a year or so, so I can appreciate not living there anymore.

Hockey reaching a glass ceiling? Typical. Probably explains that wonderful support F-M always had for SU's resting-in-peace hockey club, as well as two dead USHL programs. SU will bring on a men's and women's hockey program when the sun rises in the west. You can play ORU in that sport too, since the WCHA has told SU they're not wanted here either. In case you're interested, only the men's BB tourney makes more money for the NC$$ than the hockey tourney. Tying the NHL's overexpansion to college hockey is not only a Linnean leap, but a perfect demonstration of SU's ignorance of college hockey. Then again, we'd rather SU not taint our sport with its presence.

Ivy league? Yep, they're on our agenda for this hockey season. How about yours?

Big Sky? The chance to join that conference would have been when the Montana schools left D2. Now, they've basically said "no thanks, we've got enough travel issues."

SU took a gamble leaving the NCC on its own. It probably would have made the most sense for the bigger schools to leave at one time for rivalry and costs sake. But hey, let your $$$ pay for your egos. Let SU swing in the wind. If we do go D1 in the future, it will because we walk again over SU's bankrupt and rotting corpse, long after the current Stream Yellow administration has been fired or resigned in disgrace, and we might even bring some of our D1 hockey pals with us.

[JBB]

UND cant go D1 because of hockey, and lack of potential football revenues. The Alerious is too small. They are going to have to live with the limited visibility of the D1 hockey/D2 all other sports, just like the rest of the D1 hockey/D2 other sports teams in the NCC. Its just too big of risk to fund those large programs and make the move. NDSU doesnt have that problem.

NDSU is going to enjoy a full range of visible division 1 sports teams. Hockey will come and with it a lot more revenue. The best regional athletes are going to flock to NDSU for full scholarship rides. In the future NDSU wont lose many regional recruiting battles.

NDSU will renew old rivalries in D1AA football to sell out crowds including Northern Iowa, Grambling, Delaware State, the Montana Schools, Cal Davis, Youngstown State etc. Our new rivals like Western Illinois are going to be a lot more interesting than SCSU or Agui, god bless em. That's part of the problem with football attendance in Fargo: too much domination over too many regular D2 rivals. Not much drama in the Prestigious Fargo Dome when the average margin of victory is something like 45-14. Maine was going to sell the place out. They were going to be our first "no name" sell out.

We will in time find ourselves in the Metro Dome against the Gophers. It is already being talked about in the sports boards at the Star Trib site. In basketball we will sooner rather than later be in the NIt tournament. We will eventually appear in the NCAA. The Prestigious Fargo Dome may be a regional tournament site.

All of this means revenues. NDSU will generate at least $500,000/yr in football alone just from the home games. Who knows what kinds of guarantees we will get when we go on the road. That's something that doesn't happen to many D2 ball clubs.

Now start adding up the basketball revenues. Its going to develop into something huge over the next 10 years. I just hope UND follows their own advice and stays put with the rest of the D1 hockey/D2 all other sports crowd.

[choyt3]

We will in time find ourselves in the Metro Dome against the Gophers. It is already being talked about in the sports boards at the Star Trib site.

Exactly. NDSU will become the next Southwest Texas State and go to the Metrodome for a 42-0 whoopin', all for the $280,000 pay check. But, hey, at least the Bizon are DI. What kind of a sell job will have to be done on the Teammakers in that scenario?

Regarding your assessment that the local players will be going to NDSU on "full scholarships", I hope that happens. But realistically it can't if the Bizon are going to be competitive at the DIAA level. The talent isn't there. A player such as Jeff Boschee is NOT going to attend NDSU just because NDSU is DI.

[ScottM]

We will in time find ourselves in the Metro Dome against the Gophers. It is already being talked about in the sports boards at the Star Trib site. In basketball we will sooner rather than later be in the NIt tournament. We will eventually appear in the NCAA. The Prestigious Fargo Dome may be a regional tournament site.

Uh huh. The way the gophers play football, you might actually win. Toledo was supposed to be a cakewalk ... Hey. there's a conference you might be able to join. Speaking of Minnesota, if they can't pay their bills from having an all D1 program, what makes you think SU can? Has Andersen been doing your books?

The NIT? Most HS teams could make the NIT. Run down to Nebraska a few times, bring back six figures and 60 pt losses, you'll feel better.

Oh yeah, that's a formidible roster of potential giants. Delaware State, Northern Iowa, etc. Why not just whore yourselves out to Nebraska and get your heads handed to you on national TV? I know I'd enjoy watching that. If you want to bring in revenues by being used like the prom queen, go for it. Can't imagine it'll help recruiting though. SU's football strategy sounds like "Make money for our fragile egos, results be damned. We're D1. Make sure you raise tuition again this semester. BTW: Does UND play Michigan again this season?"

Yeah, the Fargo Dome would be a good regional site, for girls HS bouncyball. Provided it hasn't flooded, again.

[sprig]

Funny you should mention Anderson Accounting. I was thinking the same thing, or maybe these two bison are former CFO's of Enron and WorldCom. Interesting spin on numbers. If you're selling I'm not buying.

[bisonguy]

Anderson Accounting has already been used in the census fiascos of Grand Forks and the enrollment scandals of UND, or didn't anyone in Grand Forks hear about those, because your media is scared of UND and Der Fuhrer Ralph?

ScottM, supercomputers?

That sure was cool in 1978. NDSU has the largest network in the state, followed closely by a health care system based in Fargo. I've worked on both networks and even UND's, which isn't even in the same ballpark.Funny how times change, and progress is made. Wow, I want to go to a second rate medical school. Hey, I want to go to school for four years to learn to fly a little plane that I could take an eight week course. How about a dinky little law school? How's your engineering dept. ? Is your dean of electrical engineering a past president of the IEEE?

[ScottM]

Surprised that your "major" at SU didn't involve something with farm animals, or did it?

The Crays were donated in the late 80s-early 90s to the aerospace dept. The same time the SU boosters were learning about Champagne Music.

Don't know much about networks, except pencil necks manage them and they tend to be dateless wonders on the weekends.

The law school's fine, never stopped me from getting some juicy jobs in Mpls. or moving onto my MBA down here either. Fortunately, the Dean resigned after politisizing the Sioux name.

The Med school? Wouldn't know. Then again, Minnesota isn't losing population and MDs by the score.

Engineering? I have no idea what IEEE is, except for some geek organization run by pencil necks. Most engineering majors from UND I knew had no problems getting jobs, most of which were out of NoDak.

The only thing I know is that SU is an Ag school without a medical school, law school, aviation program or accredited graduate business program. Then again, since SU graduates braintrusts like you, well ... that speaks for itself.

BTW: It was "Andersen" not "Anderson", not that it makes a bit of difference in the land of EideBailey. Considering how SU counts "students" perhaps you should reconsider your own insipid comments.

"Der Furher Ralph"? Oh, that's a good one. Did your Stream Yellow buddies come up with that one after drinking a few gallons of Prestone outside the NDSU Swine barn?

[Riverman]

The bizonguys true colors are showing.

Oh that so hurts are feeling when you talk about OUR Sugar Daddy.

As for the AA bs, at least UND doesn't count the Tech school in East Grand

for their figures. Unlike some school in Fargo.

[bisonguy]

Well, I guess the fact that UND counted some students two or three times in the enrollment numbers, says a little about the school. Counting to three is usually achieved by the age of two or three, but at UND it's a Ph.D. program. Hey, maybe UND can easily raise the money to go D1. Just have felon Bochenski print some counterfeit money for UND!

UND- the school that imports their championships from Canada!

UND, Sieg Heil der Fuhrer Ralph!

[bisonguy]

ScottM,

BTW, please don't try to correct my spelling when you have problems with the word "POLITICIZE". Maybe you inhaled a little too much picnic table smoke at springfest. I do find humor in your incessant blather.

[JBB]

Ive never seen a UND hockey game. I don't even know who you play. I think you won a title a couple of years back but last year I think you stunk. I really don't know. I really don't see anything wrong with a limited D1 sports slate. I just prefer a full range of D1 competition. your hockey is cute. its really amazing how Grand Forks can do it, isn't it?

Delaware State or Youngstown are a lot better games than the feared crookston golden eagles. Next up Central Washington? We wont win every regional recruiting battle but we will get the cream of the crop. It wont be because we are D1, it will be because full ride scholarship money will win out over sharing 36 or maybe 21 with 100 or so players. Ill take the best players on the BISON and sue sox any day and be competitive in D1AA ball. but a limited D1 sports slate is better than no D1 sports. Even though I wont see you at the ice sheet maybe there will be an article someplace, or a score across the bottom of the screen?

The NIT. Lot bigger tournament than the the D2 regionals which don't even get radio coverage if your home team isn't in.

Try to keep things in perspective. The difference between Gopher and NDSU football scholarships will be about the same as that between NDSU and UND. you will be on our preseason schedule if you decide to play.