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PhillySioux

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While since Woog's opinion was not good enough to keep him a job as a coach in college hockey I do not put any stock into what that di%$head has to say. Every time he calls a Sioux game he rambles about how the Sioux have no offensive skill on the blue line. Great stats on the D-men of the Sioux and Goofies PCM, I would like to send that to Woog in an e-mail and tell him to shove it and keep his big mouth shut for the final five. That is why the Sioux have the least goals against in the WCHA because they play Smart D and only jump into the play when they will not get burned on the other end!!

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Stevens has never won a Norris Trophy - Blake and Lidstrom are consistently at the top of Defence scoring.

You are right about Stevens never winning the Norris, and that's a perfect example of voters being in love with big offensive numbers. I've always felt Stevens was robbed of the Norris in 93-94 when he not only had a career-high 78 points, but was a league-leading +53. The combination of those two numbers is sick.

But alas, the voters went with Ray Bourque, who had 91 points.

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And because Doug Woog thinks offensive-defensemen are so important, I'll point out the following...

UND's D-corps: 22 goals, 60 assists, 82 points.

Minnesota's D-corp: 24 goals, 63 assists, 87 points.

Keep in mind that Ballard and Harrington have missed a combined 10 games, which is quite a few points considering Ballard averages 1 a game and Harrington puts up more per game than anybody from UND. UND is also A LOT deeper on the blue line. Not saying it's not a telling stat, just something to think about.

I agree that UND has very solid Dmen, but these awards/lists are ALWAYS biased towards Dmen that put up big offensive numbers.

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Seriously, I would rather have a defensive corps that could play defense well, move the puck and contribute some offense now and then. Hmm...sounds like a team I know.

And because Doug Woog thinks offensive-defensemen are so important, I'll point out the following...

UND's D-corps: 22 goals, 60 assists, 82 points.

Minnesota's D-corp: 24 goals, 63 assists, 87 points.

A couple of points I think both you guys and Wooger miss.

1. Offensive production from the blue line is a crucial element of the Gophers offense. It always has been for Lucia's teams. There is certainly more than one way to win a hockey game.

2. Rather than directly comparing the UND defensemen points vs. UM defensemen points, compare to their own teams from the previous seasons.

For the Gophs defense it is not trending well.

'01-'02 - 160 pts. 3.6 PPG

'02-'03 - 136 pts. 3.0 PPG

'03-'04 - 87 pts. 2.3 PPG

For UND:

'01-'02 - 85 pts. 2.3 PPG

'02-'03 - 96 pts. 2.2 PPG

'03-'04 - 82 pts. 2.3 PPG

So UND has dramatically improved without getting dramatically more production from their defense, while the Gophers have fallen a bit corresponding to their decreased production from the blue line. Again this just illustrates to me how important blue line production is for the Gophers, but not nearly as important to the Sioux's success.

To me the best indication of a great team is their goal differential. This years Sioux is most definately getting it done in that measurement.

Anyways, carry on about INCH.

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Again this just illustrates to me how important blue line production is for the Gophers, but not nearly as important to the Sioux's success.

You make a good point. My problem with Woog is that he constantly bashes other teams for not having the type of defensemen that Minnesota has, as if it's the key to success for everyone in the WCHA. Obviously, as the Sioux have shown this season, it's not.

At any rate, I didn't want to turn this into a Woog-bashing thread because I think he generally provides some good insights on college hockey.

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Brian Leetch...try a better argument. Stevens has never won a Norris Trophy - Blake and Lidstrom are consistently at the top of Defence scoring.

I realize that Stevens has never won a Norris, but he is generally regarded as one of the best defensemen in the NHL. Leetch is good, but not regarded as in the same class as Stevens, Lidstrom and Blake despite the fact that Leetch always has more points than Stevens, and usually has as many or more points than Lidstrom and Blake. Since you seem to have a soft spot for Leetch, perhaps a better example is Sandis Ozolinsh who could always score but was a defensive liability. The same is true of Paul Coffey. Before Scotty Bowman let him go, he was asked about Coffey's offensive skills and all of the points that he had. Bowman's response was to the effect that he gives up as many as he scores.

My point was that Ballard scores a lot of points, but that is not the measure of a great defenseman.

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You are right about Stevens never winning the Norris, and that's a perfect example of voters being in love with big offensive numbers. I've always felt Stevens was robbed of the Norris in 93-94 when he not only had a career-high 78 points, but was a league-leading +53. The combination of those two numbers is sick.

But alas, the voters went with Ray Bourque, who had 91 points.

Not to be a Red Wings Homer, but Lidstrom is always at the top of Dmen scoring, true, but he's also a pretty darn good defensive player. No, he's not going to hit you into next week, but he's definitely a smart defensive player who excels at positioning, playing the rush, and penalty killing.

Lidstrom is the best 2 way defenseman among all active NHL players, no offense to Leetch or Blake.

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Keep in mind that Ballard and Harrington have missed a combined 10 games, which is quite a few points considering Ballard averages 1 a game and Harrington puts up more per game than anybody from UND. UND is also A LOT deeper on the blue line. Not saying it's not a telling stat, just something to think about.

I agree that UND has very solid Dmen, but these awards/lists are ALWAYS biased towards Dmen that put up big offensive numbers.

So if the Gopher defense isn't as good, doesn't that mean that Ballard and Harrington play a lot more minutes? I don't think it would be an extra 10 games, but there are times when Ballard doesn't get off the ice (especially on PP).

______________________________________________________________

What's a good stat for a defensemen? I was thinking +/-, but that depends on the forwards as much as the D. I was thinking about blocked shots. Too bad "times beat on rush" isn't a stat.

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It's INCH...who cares?  If they need me to tell them that Matt Jones is one of the top 15 defensemen in the NCAA (I would put him solidly in the top 5), they have less credibility than even I would have thought them to have.

I think it is a big deal. College hockey fans look at INCH and USCHO. I'm sure the players look at INCH and USCHO. Since they are really the only group giving awards by position in DI hockey, it is a big deal. Hopefully the d men take this as the slight that it is and play even better.

Plus it's a message board and this is something to fun to discuss and a good chance to look at some numbers. Thanks PCM!

I can just see NCAA tourney time rolling around and the East teams thinking we have no defense and goaltending because of what INCH said/has said. Then again, that isn't such a bad thing afterall. :D

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The Sioux don't need defensemen. They don't need goalies. They got backchecking forwards. That's all the defense they need. ;):(

As illustrated on November 8, 2003. That was the date of the best defensive play I have seen all year, when Zach Parise saved his brother's rear end by stopping Vanek from shooting into a WIDE OPEN net...

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As illustrated on November 8, 2003. That was the date of the best defensive play I have seen all year, when Zach Parise saved his brother's rear end by stopping Vanek from shooting into a WIDE OPEN net...

I second that. What an amazing play that was. It's to bad such plays go unnoticed in the stat book.

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I second that. What an amazing play that was. It's to bad such plays go unnoticed in the stat book.

I'll third it. I'm not trying to belittle the defensive efforts of the forwards because it oviously has been a key part UND's success this season.

But whenever anyone mentions the possiblity of Brandt making the all-conference team, the argument is that his success is due to his defensemen. And when anyone discusses a Sioux defenseman being on the all-conference teams, the forwards get the credit for backchecking and blocking shots.

I just think it's ridiculous that the Sioux can set a WCHA recrod for fewest goals allowed in a season and have the top penalty kill in the league, but not have any of their defensive players recognized for their contributions to those accomplishments.

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I've tried to bring up the same point. But as we all know Jake is an average goalie. And while we are at it, so are Matt, Matt and Matt. ;):(

Man, I didn't realize that we had so many average goalies on the team. :0

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