Future UND/ Bison football Game

[82SiouxGuy]

You extrapolated that from my comment?

Just asked the question. You are an NDSU backer and you are advising Faison to quit if he doesn't get what he asked for, so I asked if that was something you learned at NDSU. Seems like a fair question to me.

[bison73]

Just asked the question. You are an NDSU backer and you are advising Faison to quit if he doesn't get what he asked for, so I asked if that was something you learned at NDSU. Seems like a fair question to me.

If you go back I was basically agreeing with hayduke. As in time to move on.

[82SiouxGuy]

If you go back I was basically agreeing with hayduke. As in time to move on.

We're happy that you and Hayduke are bonding. Doesn't mean that I have to advocate quitting or that I didn't ask a legitimate question. A professional business person doesn't take no as a final answer if it is something important to them or their business. They keep trying to find a way to make something work. That is what Faison has been doing, working a lot of different angles trying to make a deal work. The problem is that NDSU keeps changing their demands. It's hard to make a deal when the other side doesn't deal in good faith.

[Risky]

If NDSU insists the first 2 have to be in Fargo than the contract better include a 3rd game in Grand Forks . The buyout on that 3rd game better be a million or more because I don't think NDSU has any intention of ever returning to Grand Forks. The only reason they will keep playing us in other sports is we beat them in all the sports we play them and therefore they aren't going to end the series with UND beating them. Since we are dominating them when we do play them in sports, maybe we should demand that we will only play them in Grand Forks now. See how they like it.

[bison73]

We're happy that you and Hayduke are bonding. Doesn't mean that I have to advocate quitting or that I didn't ask a legitimate question. A professional business person doesn't take no as a final answer if it is something important to them or their business. They keep trying to find a way to make something work. That is what Faison has been doing, working a lot of different angles trying to make a deal work. The problem is that NDSU keeps changing their demands. It's hard to make a deal when the other side doesn't deal in good faith.

We also don't know what Faison was doing behind the scenes verbally as well. We also don't know if the contract submitted was the one verbally agreed upon. Much to question on both sides of the table.

[Herd]

How did your football team do during the 2 years in? 6-5 and 3-8. Were you happy?

After being ranked top 5 in DI FCS for most of the 2 years prior to 6-5/3-8 (#1 for most of one year) and knowing that the talent was strong, yes I was confident that it would be a quick turnaround. NDSU had some lockroom cancer to cleanse, and a defensive coordinator to run off, and the course was righted. NDSU lost a lot of close games in their 3-8 season, and really can attribute a big part of the problem to conflicts in the coaching ranks between Bohl and Breske. From a player standpoint they were close. They had the top rusher in all of FCS that year in Paschall, but the defensive scheme was awful. It really turned almost immediately the following year to a winning team with a strong defense, with a lot of the same players.

[darell1976]

After being ranked top 5 in DI FCS for most of the 2 years prior to 6-5/3-8 (#1 for most of one year) and knowing that the talent was strong, yes I was confident that it would be a quick turnaround. NDSU had some lockroom cancer to cleanse, and a defensive coordinator to run off, and the course was righted. NDSU lost a lot of close games in their 3-8 season, and really can attribute a big part of the problem to conflicts in the coaching ranks between Bohl and Breske. From a player standpoint they were close. They had the top rusher in all of FCS that year in Paschall, but the defensive scheme was awful. It really turned almost immediately the following year to a winning team with a strong defense, with a lot of the same players.

You mean we should've been referring you as N_SU? As for close games, we had 3 FBS close games the last few years, (SDSU, Fresno St, and NIU) but in the end it still shows up at a loss. UND has now got rid of a coach that was bad, and installed a defensive minded, work enthusiast, midwest recruiting type coach in Bubba and hopefully after this season we can see the beginning of climbing out of the deep hole Muss got us in.

[82SiouxGuy]

We also don't know what Faison was doing behind the scenes verbally as well. We also don't know if the contract submitted was the one verbally agreed upon. Much to question on both sides of the table.

We do know that NDSU continued to change their demands, making them more and more restrictive toward UND. That was shown in emails. If it looked like UND was going to accept the demands, then NDSU would make more demands. We know that the 2 sides agreed to a basic framework of a contract, emails show that Faison was sending a written copy of that to NDSU. Then NDSU changed their demands yet again. We don't have the details of what was discussed at any time, but we know that NDSU continued to move the bar. That isn't considered bargaining in good faith.

You continuing to show up here trying to make NDSU look better isn't going to accomplish anything. Maybe you should take your own advice and just quit.

[nd1sufan]

BS!!! Weber St is worse than us.

That statement right there says a lot about the state of UND football.

[darell1976]

That statement right there says a lot about the state of UND football.

And the level of football that NDSU requires to secure a home and home. We'll let know when UND wins 4 games in 2 consecutive seasons, last time that happened for UND was 1942 and 1945. (no games in 43 and 44 due to WWII) In case you are wondering when NDSU had 4 wins in 2 consecutive seasons total...1962-63. They (NDSU) has had 4 ZERO win seasons since 1949, the last one in 1962. UND has NEVER had a ZERO win season. History is sure fun.

[bison73]

You mean we should've been referring you as N_SU? As for close games, we had 3 FBS close games the last few years, (SDSU, Fresno St, and NIU) but in the end it still shows up at a loss. UND has now got rid of a coach that was bad, and installed a defensive minded, work enthusiast, midwest recruiting type coach in Bubba and hopefully after this season we can see the beginning of climbing out of the deep hole Muss got us in.

We do know that NDSU continued to change their demands, making them more and more restrictive toward UND. That was shown in emails. If it looked like UND was going to accept the demands, then NDSU would make more demands. We know that the 2 sides agreed to a basic framework of a contract, emails show that Faison was sending a written copy of that to NDSU. Then NDSU changed their demands yet again. We don't have the details of what was discussed at any time, but we know that NDSU continued to move the bar. That isn't considered bargaining in good faith.

You continuing to show up here trying to make NDSU look better isn't going to accomplish anything. Maybe you should take your own advice and just quit.

Dont care whether you think NDSU was bargaining in good faith or whether you think I am trying to make NDSU look good as I am not. Just having a discussion. You see I am able to look and see issues on both sides. You only see NDSU at fault. I would say this--If you are unable to do look at both sides of the issue may be you should just quit----but this is YOUR venue so that would be inappropriate. But I do understand where the sentiment comes from.

Just one more thing---no contract has ever been produced. So nobody knows what was or wasnt in it. So its nothing more than speculation.

[darell1976]

Dont care whether you think NDSU was bargaining in good faith or whether you think I am trying to make NDSU look good as I am not. Just having a discussion. You see I am able to look and see issues on both sides. You only see NDSU at fault. I would say this--If you are unable to do look at both sides of the issue may be you should just quit----but this is YOUR venue so that would be inappropriate.

Go on BV, and you will only see UND at fault, so take your words about looking at it from both sides, and apply it to your Bison buddies over there.

[bison73]

Go on BV, and you will only see UND at fault.

What does BV have to do with my post?

[darell1976]

What does BV have to do with my post?

You criticize us for not seeing both sides. Go on BV, and say hey guys we should be seeing this from both sides....and see how far that gets you.

[bison73]

You criticize us for not seeing both sides. Go on BV, and say hey guys we should be seeing this from both sides....and see how far that gets you.

Ive done it before. The ones who are blind will stay blind. Regardless of venue. I still dont see the relevance in my post to Siouxguy82 and BV. Unless your point is childish finger pointing?

[darell1976]

Ive done it before. The ones who are blind will stay blind. Regardless of venue. I still dont see the relevance in my post to Siouxguy82 and BV. Unless your point is childish finger pointing?

We have our opinions, just like on BV they have theirs and we will favor UND, and they will favor NDSU. You said you see both sides, well good for you, we see NDSU's side (and it sucks), we see UND's side (and its the right side). Faison sent a contract to Taylor for a home/home, Taylor's bluff failed, so he moved the terms to favor NDSU instead of having the rivalry and the fans (on both sides) in mind. Don't like our view...BV is that way ------>

[bison73]

We have our opinions, just like on BV they have theirs and we will favor UND, and they will favor NDSU. You said you see both sides, well good for you, we see NDSU's side (and it sucks), we see UND's side (and its the right side). Faison sent a contract to Taylor for a home/home, Taylor's bluff failed, so he moved the terms to favor NDSU instead of having the rivalry and the fans (on both sides) in mind. Don't like our view...BV is that way ------>

From Hammersmith on AGS---

The timeline of this whole thing is really weird with some significant unexplained gaps.

April 2010: UND demands yearly game, NDSU demands every other year at most. (this was the case from fall 2008 to spring 2011)

April 2011: GT offers two-game Fargo/GF deal for 2015 & 2017. BF agrees in principle, mentions meeting in person to iron out details. Nothing happens. (this is the email exchange from above)

January 2012: NDSU wins first national championship.

May 2012: During an interview, GT answers a question on the topic by mentioning he's told BF to call him when he's ready to move forward. No mention is made of the conversation from a year ago or if the current deal was still on the table. During an interview the following day, BF said he was going to mail a contract to GT using the dates agreed to over a year before. No confirmation that BF followed through.

June 2012: NCAA sends NDSU's championship banner to UND by mistake. BF talks to media before he calls GT about it. NDSU finds out when the story appears on the GFH and WDAZ websites.

January 2013: NDSU wins second national championship.

January 2013: BF emails a contract to GT using the April 2011 terms. GT says he'll get back to him. Apparently never does.

January 2014: NDSU wins third national championship.

January 2014: BF once again emails the April 2011 contract. GT counteroffers both games in Fargo. BF declines.

February 2014: GT offers $190k for one game in Fargo or $380k for two games in Fargo. BF declines and offers to change the 2017 date to 2018, 2019 or 2020. GT declines.

May 2014: GT offers $125k for one game in Fargo for 2015. BF declines.

July 2014: Just before leaving for Iowa, GT informs BF that the single game deal is off the table. Only deal on table is the two-game Fargo deal for 2015 and 2018/19.

August 2014: BF tells media he's considering taking the deal on the table. (the article that started this thread)

Questions:

1. What happened between April 2011 and May 2012? That's almost a year of time. Did the two of them not follow through with the face to face meeting? Apparently there are no emails or Brad Schlossman's FOIA request would have turned them up. Did the deal fall apart due to details that couldn't be worked out? There are no answers in published media reports.

2. During the May 2012 exchange: Were BF & GT in contact regarding the issue before BF mailed the contract, or did it show up out of the blue? Did BF even follow through with sending the contract? There is no mention of a contract being sent by UND or received by NDSU close to the time period in subsequent FOIA requests.

Sources:

http://www.bakkentoday.com/event/art...blisher_ID/40/

http://localnews.twcc.com/article/36...9#.U-f3YBEg9dg

http://www.grandforksherald.com/cont...rantee-game-gf

https://secure.forumcomm.com/?publis...icle_id=274103

http://www.bakkentoday.com/event/article/id/34045/

[darell1976]

From Hammersmith on AGS---

The timeline of this whole thing is really weird with some significant unexplained gaps.

April 2010: UND demands yearly game, NDSU demands every other year at most. (this was the case from fall 2008 to spring 2011)

April 2011: GT offers two-game Fargo/GF deal for 2015 & 2017. BF agrees in principle, mentions meeting in person to iron out details. Nothing happens. (this is the email exchange from above)

January 2012: NDSU wins first national championship.

May 2012: During an interview, GT answers a question on the topic by mentioning he's told BF to call him when he's ready to move forward. No mention is made of the conversation from a year ago or if the current deal was still on the table. During an interview the following day, BF said he was going to mail a contract to GT using the dates agreed to over a year before. No confirmation that BF followed through.

June 2012: NCAA sends NDSU's championship banner to UND by mistake. BF talks to media before he calls GT about it. NDSU finds out when the story appears on the GFH and WDAZ websites.

January 2013: NDSU wins second national championship.

January 2013: BF emails a contract to GT using the April 2011 terms. GT says he'll get back to him. Apparently never does.

January 2014: NDSU wins third national championship.

January 2014: BF once again emails the April 2011 contract. GT counteroffers both games in Fargo. BF declines.

February 2014: GT offers $190k for one game in Fargo or $380k for two games in Fargo. BF declines and offers to change the 2017 date to 2018, 2019 or 2020. GT declines.

May 2014: GT offers $125k for one game in Fargo for 2015. BF declines.

July 2014: Just before leaving for Iowa, GT informs BF that the single game deal is off the table. Only deal on table is the two-game Fargo deal for 2015 and 2018/19.

August 2014: BF tells media he's considering taking the deal on the table. (the article that started this thread)

Questions:

1. What happened between April 2011 and May 2012? That's almost a year of time. Did the two of them not follow through with the face to face meeting? Apparently there are no emails or Brad Schlossman's FOIA request would have turned them up. Did the deal fall apart due to details that couldn't be worked out? There are no answers in published media reports.

2. During the May 2012 exchange: Were BF & GT in contact regarding the issue before BF mailed the contract, or did it show up out of the blue? Did BF even follow through with sending the contract? There is no mention of a contract being sent by UND or received by NDSU close to the time period in subsequent FOIA requests.

Sources:

http://www.bakkentod....blisher_ID/40/

http://localnews.twc....9#.U-f3YBEg9dg

http://www.grandfork....rantee-game-gf

https://secure.forum....icle_id=274103

http://www.bakkentod...ticle/id/34045/

I read that, and its funny how GT changed every terms he set. The dates, the locations, the MONEY. So take that timeline and enter the H/H with Weber State and EWU how that co-insides with this.

February 2014: GT offers $190k for one game in Fargo or $380k for two games in Fargo. BF declines and offers to change the 2017 date to 2018, 2019 or 2020. GT declines.

May 2014: GT offers $125k for one game in Fargo for 2015. BF declines.

July 2014: Just before leaving for Iowa, GT informs BF that the single game deal is off the table. Only deal on table is the two-game Fargo deal for 2015 and 2018/19.

How can Bison fans justify GT changing everything in just 5 months? While at the same time he can easily ink a H/H with 2 BSC teams. Exactly how much money is the H/H with EWU?

[bison73]

I read that, and its funny how GT changed every terms he set. The dates, the locations, the MONEY. So take that timeline and enter the H/H with Weber State and EWU how that co-insides with this.

How can Bison fans justify GT changing everything in just 5 months? While at the same time he can easily ink a H/H with 2 BSC teams. Exactly how much money is the H/H with EWU?

I read that, and its funny how GT changed every terms he set. The dates, the locations, the MONEY. So take that timeline and enter the H/H with Weber State and EWU how that co-insides with this.

How can Bison fans justify GT changing everything in just 5 months? While at the same time he can easily ink a H/H with 2 BSC teams. Exactly how much money is the H/H with EWU?

He changed the terms when BF declined the offer. Not to hard to figure out. Its right there in black and white.

[darell1976]

He changed the terms so BF can decline the offer.

Fixed it in the eyes of Gene Taylor.

[bison73]

Fixed it in the eyes of Gene Taylor.

Really?

[82SiouxGuy]

Dont care whether you think NDSU was bargaining in good faith or whether you think I am trying to make NDSU look good as I am not. Just having a discussion. You see I am able to look and see issues on both sides. You only see NDSU at fault. I would say this--If you are unable to do look at both sides of the issue may be you should just quit----but this is YOUR venue so that would be inappropriate. But I do understand where the sentiment comes from.

Just one more thing---no contract has ever been produced. So nobody knows what was or wasnt in it. So its nothing more than speculation.

It's funny, I see things from both sides also. Just because you claim to be impartial doesn't mean that you are. I believe it is bad faith negotiation to keep changing the terms and make the negotiations more difficult. If you don't want to do a deal, say so. UND has made plenty of mistakes over the years. We don't know what mistakes they may have made in this negotiation, I don't remember seeing anything specific being mentioned that would be a major mistake from their side. Not sending the contract would be a mistake, but Faison has been quoted as saying he did actually send the contracts on more than 1 occasion. Negotiation is a give and take of possible terms. Normally the sides work from the outside toward the middle. NDSU continues to keep moving away from a deal, that is not good faith negotiation. And that is where your lack of impartiality shows, you don't admit that NDSU has worked to avoid a deal rather than trying to make a deal work.

[bison73]

It's funny, I see things from both sides also. Just because you claim to be impartial doesn't mean that you are. I believe it is bad faith negotiation to keep changing the terms and make the negotiations more difficult. If you don't want to do a deal, say so. UND has made plenty of mistakes over the years. We don't know what mistakes they may have made in this negotiation, I don't remember seeing anything specific being mentioned that would be a major mistake from their side. Not sending the contract would be a mistake, but Faison has been quoted as saying he did actually send the contracts on more than 1 occasion. Negotiation is a give and take of possible terms. Normally the sides work from the outside toward the middle. NDSU continues to keep moving away from a deal, that is not good faith negotiation. And that is where your lack of impartiality shows, you don't admit that NDSU has worked to avoid a deal rather than trying to make a deal work.

I agree with a majority of what you say. I think as time went on the playing field--as in wants and needs changed from year to year as NDSU became more successfull. Because of that changing landscape it became more difficult to even try and move to the middle. I dont think even at that ponit GT was opposed to the game in as much as not wanting to play the game in GF.

Even with open records there are way too many gaps and no actual records of conversations or copies of actual drafts of contracts. If there were I would have thought those would have been brought forward and GTs feet held to the fire.

But I dont see how you can say GT wasnt bargaining in good faith when he offered a H/H one time deal. BF turned it down because he wanted a game every year. If BF would have accepted that deal from the get go we wouldnt be where we are now.

ps I appreciate the level headed conversation!

[UND-FB-FAN]

I mean, when UND starts winning again, starting this season and especially in 2015, are we then going to be able to schedule a home and home?

Probably not.

There's no better time to schedule it than right now. The game is already overdue.

As for the state of UND football, stock is rising each and everyday. Mussman was an incompetent head coach and everyone knew it. He should never have been promoted to HC and he never should've had the job past 2011 or 2012. Bubba isn't a miracle worker, but he understands that UND has the resources to be every bit as successful as the other Midwest FCS schools like SDSU, UNI, and even NDSU. He also knows the template: recruit Midwest kids and put forth great physical and mental effort.

Am I saying UND will start winning national titles soon; no, but I'm saying with a competent coaching staff UND should win at least 6 to 7 games annually. Give it time; by 2015 or 2016 it will have begun. As for NDSU, they can only go down. Craig Bohl was a great leader and the 2013 senior class was a one of a kind. Like it or not, the programs will even out sooner than you think.

[MafiaMan]

As for close games, we had 3 FBS close games the last few years, (SDSU, Fresno St, and NIU) but in the end it still shows up at a loss.

You can't really take credit for a "close game" against a Fresno State team that eventually wound up with a 4-9 record, can you? That was the same 2011-2012 season that included a "revenge match" game against NAIA Sioux Falls. North Dakota bounced back from what should be considered the most embarrassing loss in school history two seasons earlier with a 15-13 "thumping" of the Cougars. I think staying close with a San Diego State team in 2012 that wound up at 9-4 - and had wins over Boise State and Air Force - was more impressive. Of course, that season also included giving up 55 points against both EWU and Montana State and an end-of-season loss to Northern Colorado.