Future UND/ Bison football Game

[Bulk Truck]

Time for a summary review of UND and NDSU conference affiliations. Big Sky Conference(BSC), Summit League(SL), Missouri Valley Football Conference(MVFC), Western Athletic Conference(WAC), and Western Wrestling Conference(WWC) and the National Collegiate Hockey Conference(NCHC). Yes, even hockey has had to take a step back if not down. Let's face it everyone of these conferences is below where we should ultimately be as an institution. Is this where we want to be 25 or 50 years from now? Our conference affiliations look like a can of alphabet soup! The State of North Dakota deserves better than minor league, FCS, or mid-major status.

[darell1976]

Time for a summary review of UND and NDSU conference affiliations. Big Sky Conference(BSC), Summit League(SL), Missouri Valley Football Conference(MVFC), Western Athletic Conference(WAC), and Western Wrestling Conference(WWC) and the National Collegiate Hockey Conference(NCHC). Yes, even hockey has had to take a step back if not down. Let's face it everyone of these conferences is below where we should ultimately be as an institution. Is this where we want to be 25 or 50 years from now? Our conference affiliations look like a can of alphabet soup! The State of North Dakota deserves better than minor league, FCS, or mid-major status.

Sorry both UND and NDSU missed their Big 10 invitations.

[Bulk Truck]

There you have it. "Cow college logic" at its finest. Of all the ridiculous things you post here, this one has to be up there. And you dont want to schedule UND because it wouldn't be healthy because of the name-calling. When in fact FU and its fanbase will continue to do it like they have been even though we havent been playing in football. So whats the difference? Its obvious to me that most FU fans just want to avoid playing UND at all costs, only because they dont want to chance actually losing the game, like they have in every other sport this year.

Now now Jeremiah "Liver eatin" Johnson "skin this griz (Montana U) and I'll get you another one" says Chris "Bear Claw" Lapp in the movie Jeremiah Johnson. After looking at your avatar and sensing the irony of who are rivals should be I just couldn't pass this up. Mountain man or old prospector, if you put 'em in a sack and pound 'em out they'll both come out of the same hole!

[Bulk Truck]

Sorry both UND and NDSU missed their Big 10 invitations.

Now are you my UND brother darell or my other NDSU brother darell? Actually you have no idea how close you are on several fronts.

[Bulk Truck]

The fact that there is this much chatter about UND-NDSU scheduling non-conference games just shows how screwed up this whole situation has been made by both Gene Taylor and Brian Faison. I look at Colorado-Colorado State, Iowa-Iowa State, Florida-Florida State, Utah-Utah State, etc. etc. and see that they just do the most obvious thing and just schedule each other! The fact this whole UND-NDSU scheduling conversation even exists is embarrassing to the state of North Dakota and UND/NDSU.

Good point, but if you look at just the four States you mentioned you will find volumes of dysfunctional history between their respective twin schools as well. That's why intrastate rivalries are much more inefficient than interstate rivalries. Intrastate rivalries are very polarizing and counterproductive, while interstate rivalries are unifying and IMO a lot more fun. Texas/Oklahoma, Michigan/Ohio State, Alabama/LSU, and Minnesota/Wisconsin to provide you with four examples to consider. The 30,000 or more fans that packed the Metrodome especially in 2007 when NDSU played the goofers in football weren't all Bison fans, I know I was right next to a former Sioux football player at the game. How about all the fans that pack the Ralph? Nobody can tell me there aren't Bison fans that have season tickets to UND hockey because I have been in their suite.

[jdub27]

Good point, but if you look at just the four States you mentioned you will find volumes of dysfunctional history between their respective twin schools as well. That's why intrastate rivalries are much more inefficient than interstate rivalries. Intrastate rivalries are very polarizing and counterproductive, while interstate rivalries are unifying and IMO a lot more fun. Texas/Oklahoma, Michigan/Ohio State, Alabama/LSU, and Minnesota/Wisconsin to provide you with four examples to consider. The 30,000 or more fans that packed the Metrodome especially in 2007 when NDSU played the goofers in football weren't all Bison fans, I know I was right next to a former Sioux football player at the game. How about all the fans that pack the Ralph? Nobody can tell me there aren't Bison fans that have season tickets to UND hockey because I have been in their suite.

When you're done sorting through this thread, there are a handful on the FU site you can work on. Might be easiest to start with the one that has over 4,000 posts and almost 300,000 views.

[Gus Chiggins]

Good point, but if you look at just the four States you mentioned you will find volumes of dysfunctional history between their respective twin schools as well. That's why intrastate rivalries are much more inefficient than interstate rivalries. Intrastate rivalries are very polarizing and counterproductive, while interstate rivalries are unifying and IMO a lot more fun. Texas/Oklahoma, Michigan/Ohio State, Alabama/LSU, and Minnesota/Wisconsin to provide you with four examples to consider. The 30,000 or more fans that packed the Metrodome especially in 2007 when NDSU played the goofers in football weren't all Bison fans, I know I was right next to a former Sioux football player at the game. How about all the fans that pack the Ralph? Nobody can tell me there aren't Bison fans that have season tickets to UND hockey because I have been in their suite.

Ohio State, LSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin do not have interstate rivals, so that is by default. Texas/Texas A&M, Oklahoma/Oklahoma State & Alabama/Auburn are much more fierce and intense rivalries overall. I'll give you MIchigan/Ohio State, but that can definitely be argued by Michigan State. You can talk about "inefficiency" and whatever that means, but in general, the interstate rivalry is much more vicious than any intrastate rivalry in my opinion. In any sport. It's civil war (Oregon/Oregon State).

[Herd]

Fine, tell GT to take UND off of the basketball schedule and replace us with Mayville State or Valley City State, I am sure you will pack the place.

Why doesn't UND's single digit winning Softball team play NDSU's perennial 35-40 win team in the regular season? NDSU's VB and WBB teams are down from where they have been traditionally, yet we play UND. Who is afraid to lose a game? Is UND unwilling to play unless it is favorable for them? So it seems.

[mizzou/sioux]

I would bet that if both schools swapped AD's for a month this game would still not get scheduled. This points to the fact that both of these guys are representing their respective school's interest and they're both just working for the MAN!

My sentiments exactly. A tremendous amount of school pride is at stake for both schools. Neither Faison nor Taylor want to look bad in representing their schools, and I can't blame them. I think the game will be played eventually. More than likely the first renewal of the series will be in the playoffs, whenever that might happen to be. Time heals all wounds. Or should it be that time wounds all heels?

[darell1976]

Why doesn't UND's single digit winning Softball team play NDSU's perennial 35-40 win team in the regular season? NDSU's VB and WBB teams are down from where they have been traditionally, yet we play UND. Who is afraid to lose a game? Is UND unwilling to play unless it is favorable for them? So it seems.

I don't know. I think they should.

[UND-1]

Why doesn't UND's single digit winning Softball team play NDSU's perennial 35-40 win team in the regular season? NDSU's VB and WBB teams are down from where they have been traditionally, yet we play UND. Who is afraid to lose a game? Is UND unwilling to play unless it is favorable for them? So it seems.

You really think UND Softball is worried about losing games?

[Bulk Truck]

Ohio State, LSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin do not have interstate rivals, so that is by default. Texas/Texas A&M, Oklahoma/Oklahoma State & Alabama/Auburn are much more fierce and intense rivalries overall. I'll give you MIchigan/Ohio State, but that can definitely be argued by Michigan State. You can talk about "inefficiency" and whatever that means, but in general, the interstate rivalry is much more vicious than any intrastate rivalry in my opinion. In any sport. It's civil war (Oregon/Oregon State).

Ol' Gus I love your avatar, but I'm afraid your argument is flip flopin' a bit. I think you are a bit confused on what the definition of intrastate and interstate is. Inefficiency by my definition is a waste of finite and valuable resources. I have some other comments on some of your other thoughts, but I will reserve those until we clarify that interstate vs. intrastate part of our discussion.

[Bulk Truck]

My sentiments exactly. A tremendous amount of school pride is at stake for both schools. Neither Faison nor Taylor want to look bad in representing their schools, and I can't blame them. I think the game will be played eventually. More than likely the first renewal of the series will be in the playoffs, whenever that might happen to be. Time heals all wounds. Or should it be that time wounds all heels?

Gotta love that show me State logic. It must be rubbin' off! Or am I wrong and you were a Missourian that attended UND!

[Bulk Truck]

When you're done sorting through this thread, there are a handful on the FU site you can work on. Might be easiest to start with the one that has over 4,000 posts and almost 300,000 views.

If it's lakesbison his enthusiasm is boundless. He's like chasin' a jackrabbit across a plowed field on foot. You may be able to see him, but you'll never catch him.

[Gus Chiggins]

Ol' Gus I love your avatar, but I'm afraid your argument is flip flopin' a bit. I think you are a bit confused on what the definition of intrastate and interstate is. Inefficiency by my definition is a waste of finite and valuable resources. I have some other comments on some of your other thoughts, but I will reserve those until we clarify that interstate vs. intrastate part of our discussion.

Ohhhhhh, peaches! You're right, I did have them turned around. My apologies. Now you can proceed with your other comments.

[Bulk Truck]

Ohhhhhh, peaches! You're right, I did have them turned around. My apologies. Now you can proceed with your other comments.

No apology necessary, as the Duke would say never say you're sorry it's a sign of weakness.

First all of Minnesota and Wisconsin, I wish our State was more like them. If we were, hockey would likely have a chance for it's rightful home playing them as conference rivals instead of having to step sideways or IMO down as members of the NCHC. Nobody can tell me that the best rivalries in WCHA hockey weren't the UND/goofers and UND/badgers.

Now for Louisiana and Ohio State they both have intrastate rivals, but essentially choose to ignore that they exist. Now for Alabama/Auburn, Oregon/Oregon State, and Oklahoma/Oklahoma State I will concede they are rivals but they are from States that have 5-7 times the population base and that takes me back to this concept of "inefficiency" and wise use of what you have available. Finally on Texas/Texas A&M that essentially ended with TAM's move to the SEC. Besides Texans don't feel they ever have to do anything that somebody else does, well that's Texas. Efficiency, prudent use of resources, and eliminating duplication are all hallmarks of the our German, Scandinavian, Bohemian, Polish, UK and yes our historically Native American cultures. Well I hope I've given you enough to chew on Ol' Gus!

[mksioux]

Good point, but if you look at just the four States you mentioned you will find volumes of dysfunctional history between their respective twin schools as well. That's why intrastate rivalries are much more inefficient than interstate rivalries. Intrastate rivalries are very polarizing and counterproductive, while interstate rivalries are unifying and IMO a lot more fun. Texas/Oklahoma, Michigan/Ohio State, Alabama/LSU, and Minnesota/Wisconsin to provide you with four examples to consider. The 30,000 or more fans that packed the Metrodome especially in 2007 when NDSU played the goofers in football weren't all Bison fans, I know I was right next to a former Sioux football player at the game. How about all the fans that pack the Ralph? Nobody can tell me there aren't Bison fans that have season tickets to UND hockey because I have been in their suite.

All good rivalries are polarizing. That's the whole point of them. UND-Minnesota hockey is about as polarizing of a rivalry as you can get and that is an interstate rivalry. In fact, Don Lucia wanted a cool-down period because he thought the rivalry had gotten too toxic. And, despite his feelings (which seem to be similar to yours), most fans of both teams were furious that the rivalry went on hiatus.

I don't know many people who think the goal of a good rivalry is to be "efficient" or "productive." If you mean some sort of unifying rivalry game that the entire State can get behind, that's never going to happen with football in North Dakota as long as both UND and NDSU are both playing football at the same level. Your efficiency argument would have made a great deal of sense in the 1880s. I would have gladly supported only ONE public state university being established in North Dakota. But it's too late for that now.

Your NDSU versus Minnesota example isn't on point. To be sure, there were some UND fans rooting for NDSU in that game. Maybe they liked the underdog angle, or hated Minnesota because of the hockey rivalry. But let's not kid ourselves, there were other UND fans that were rooting against NDSU, and there were many more that were genuinely torn. More importantly, Minnesota is not, and never will be, a "rival" of NDSU. Despite the recent games, Minnesota fans will never be as excited to beat NDSU as vice-versa. A more apt comparison of an interstate rivalry is NDSU vs. SDSU. And I don't know of a single UND fan that cares about that game or feels a sense of State pride when NDSU beats them.

[Gus Chiggins]

No apology necessary, as the Duke would say never say you're sorry it's a sign of weakness.

First all of Minnesota and Wisconsin, I wish our State was more like them. If we were hockey would likely have a chance for it's rightful home playing them as conference rivals instead of having to step sideways or IMO down as members of the NCHC. Nobody can tell me that the best rivalries in WCHA hockey weren't the UND/goofers and UND/badgers.

Now for Louisiana and Ohio State they both have intrastate rivals, but essentially choose to ignore that they exist. Now for Alabama/Auburn, Oregon/Oregon State, and Oklahoma/Oklahoma State I will concede they are rivals but they are from States that have 5-7 times the population base and that takes me back to this concept of "inefficiency" and wise use of what you have available. Finally on Texas/Texas A&M that essentially ended with TAM's move to the SEC. Besides Texans don't feel they ever have to do anything that somebody else does, well that's Texas. Efficiency, prudent use of resources, and eliminating duplication are all hallmarks of the our German, Scandinavian, Bohemian, Polish, UK and yes our historically Native American cultures. Well I hope I've given you enough to chew on Ol' Gus!

Yeah. I guess Im just gonna have to disagree with you on that. But thanks for the diatribe? I also just like to acknowledge and admit when I'm wrong on something.

[tjamz]

Don't let facts get in your way. UND had an invite for a visit from MVFC Summit at the same time they had an offer from the Big Sky. UND needed a conference for football - Big Sky offered it all. Of course FU trolls now say they didn't want Big Sky anyway - after being turned down twice.

Where did I say we never wanted BSC? We absolutely did. In hindsight we are better off where we are now.

[mksioux]

No apology necessary, as the Duke would say never say you're sorry it's a sign of weakness.

First all of Minnesota and Wisconsin, I wish our State was more like them. If we were hockey would likely have a chance for it's rightful home playing them as conference rivals instead of having to step sideways or IMO down as members of the NCHC. Nobody can tell me that the best rivalries in WCHA hockey weren't the UND/goofers and UND/badgers.

Now for Louisiana and Ohio State they both have intrastate rivals, but essentially choose to ignore that they exist. Now for Alabama/Auburn, Oregon/Oregon State, and Oklahoma/Oklahoma State I will concede they are rivals but they are from States that have 5-7 times the population base and that takes me back to this concept of "inefficiency" and wise use of what you have available. Finally on Texas/Texas A&M that essentially ended with TAM's move to the SEC. Besides Texans don't feel they ever have to do anything that somebody else does, well that's Texas. Efficiency, prudent use of resources, and eliminating duplication are all hallmarks of the our German, Scandinavian, Bohemian, Polish, UK and yes our historically Native American cultures. Well I hope I've given you enough to chew on Ol' Gus!

I don't really disagree with you on the bolded parts, but what do you propose be done about it now? You aren't going to merge the schools together. UND isn't going to drop football. There's really nothing that can be done at this point. So there's no sense it trying to deny or change the natural rivalry between the two schools - even if it is polarizing or "inefficient".

If you are talking about practical efficiencies for the present day, you could make an argument that it is inefficient and waste of resources of UND and NDSU to be scheduling non-conference games with various teams around the country rather than the one that would generate the most fan interest 70 miles down the road. Ideally, for maximum efficiencies, UND and NDSU would be in the same conference, along with similarly situated state flagship schools in the region, but there's no way of forcing that to happen.

As to your Ohio and Louisiana comparisons, NDSU fans would love it if UND became the "Ohio" of North Dakota and they became the "Ohio State." Some of them use that comparison when explaining why NDSU shouldn't play UND. But Ohio and Ohio State weren't arch-rivals for 110 years. In fact, they've only played 7 times in their entire history. The two institutions are not comparable either. Even though Ohio is older, the Ohio legislature made a conscious decision shortly after Ohio State opened that it would be the flagship university in the State and it has been ever since. Ohio was essentially relegated to Normal School status for several decades. Complete apples and oranges comparison.

Same with Louisiana. Louisiana-Lafayette and Monroe are not flagship schools and are not peer institutions with LSU - either institutionally or athletically. Tulane used to be in the SEC several decades ago, but Tulane is a private school. Again, apples and oranges.

Partisans can keep coming up with new excuses why the game shouldn't resume, but they can't change the simple and undisputable fact UND and NDSU are peer institutions 70 miles apart from one another with over a century of history between them. Eventually, that is what will get the schools playing each other again. It's inevitable. It might take some more personnel turnover, but it will eventually happen.

[tjamz]

Have you looked ahead to your 2015 schedule yet? A whole one year away and your "scheduling template" excuse doesn't hold up.

Yep. One open date. We are going to have to give up either an FBS game or a home game, I believe that the Montana game was scheduled a while back (2009 is when it was scheduled IIRC). We are at least playing a higher end FCS school (traditionally) in Montana. Is it perfect? No, but it should be a great game that should be close (just like most of our FBS wins have been). I have no doubt that GT will fill the last spot with a home game from a cupcake FCS counter.

As I said earlier the game was scheduled back in 2009. BEFORE we really hit our stride in FCS. Probably before the schedule format was perfected to what we'd prefer. Heck in 2009 we only had 5 home games.... we were a very ho-hum team that year (3-8) we didn't have the power to negotiate like we do now, though we did get a home & home out of the deal. Is it fair to say things have changed at NDSU since 2009? We lost more games that year than the following 4 years combined.

Just as in business, things change. Contracts get renegotiated or pulled based on a number of factors. I send out bid's every single day, they are only good for a certain period of time (usually 90 to 180 days) after which my company has the option to no longer honor the offer.

[tjamz]

There you have it. "Cow college logic" at its finest. Of all the ridiculous things you post here, this one has to be up there. And you dont want to schedule UND because it wouldn't be healthy because of the name-calling. When in fact FU and its fanbase will continue to do it like they have been even though we havent been playing in football. So whats the difference? Its obvious to me that most FU fans just want to avoid playing UND at all costs, only because they dont want to chance actually losing the game, like they have in every other sport this year.

You guys called them out as being an awful team. They finished slightly above UND in the Sagarin ratings. Not any worse of a cupcake than you guys.

[tjamz]

Ohio State, LSU, Minnesota and Wisconsin do not have interstate rivals, so that is by default. Texas/Texas A&M, Oklahoma/Oklahoma State & Alabama/Auburn are much more fierce and intense rivalries overall. I'll give you MIchigan/Ohio State, but that can definitely be argued by Michigan State. You can talk about "inefficiency" and whatever that means, but in general, the interstate rivalry is much more vicious than any intrastate rivalry in my opinion. In any sport. It's civil war (Oregon/Oregon State).

Texas and Texas A&M no longer play either. Haven't since 2011 if I'm not mistaken.

[jdub27]

Yep. One open date. We are going to have to give up either an FBS game or a home game, I believe that the Montana game was scheduled a while back (2009 is when it was scheduled IIRC). We are at least playing a higher end FCS school (traditionally) in Montana. Is it perfect? No, but it should be a great game that should be close (just like most of our FBS wins have been). I have no doubt that GT will fill the last spot with a home game from a cupcake FCS counter.

As I said earlier the game was scheduled back in 2009. BEFORE we really hit our stride in FCS. Probably before the schedule format was perfected to what we'd prefer. Heck in 2009 we only had 5 home games.... we were a very ho-hum team that year (3-8) we didn't have the power to negotiate like we do now, though we did get a home & home out of the deal. Is it fair to say things have changed at NDSU since 2009? We lost more games that year than the following 4 years combined.

Just as in business, things change. Contracts get renegotiated or pulled based on a number of factors. I send out bid's every single day, they are only good for a certain period of time (usually 90 to 180 days) after which my company has the option to no longer honor the offer.

What "power" is it that FU has to negotiate? GT paid D-2 teams almost $200K to come to Fargo. He signed a home/home with Weber St who is historically a very average football team. Explain to me which part of these deals show this magical power?

[Bulk Truck]

All good rivalries are polarizing. That's the whole point of them. UND-Minnesota hockey is about as polarizing of a rivalry as you can get and that is an interstate rivalry. In fact, Don Lucia wanted a cool-down period because he thought the rivalry had gotten too toxic. And, despite his feelings (which seem to be similar to yours), most fans of both teams were furious that the rivalry went on hiatus.

I don't know many people who think the goal of a good rivalry is to be "efficient" or "productive." If you mean some sort of unifying rivalry game that the entire State can get behind, that's never going to happen with football in North Dakota as long as both UND and NDSU are both playing football at the same level. Your efficiency argument would have made a great deal of sense in the 1880s. I would have gladly supported only ONE public state university being established in North Dakota. But it's too late for that now.

Your NDSU versus Minnesota example isn't on point. To be sure, there were some UND fans rooting for NDSU in that game. Maybe they liked the underdog angle, or hated Minnesota because of the hockey rivalry. But let's not kid ourselves, there were other UND fans that were rooting against NDSU, and there were many more that were genuinely torn. More importantly, Minnesota is not, and never will be, a "rival" of NDSU. Despite the recent games, Minnesota fans will never be as excited to beat NDSU as vice-versa. A more apt comparison of an interstate rivalry is NDSU vs. SDSU. And I don't know of a single UND fan that cares about that game or feels a sense of State pride when NDSU beats them.

Good Discussion! Now for a few comments on my part. I will attempt to address them by paragraph.

1. I believe you are confusing my support for interstate vs intrastate rivalries. I stated that interstate rivalries are the best and on that we apparently have some agreement. I do not agree with Don Lucia and in fact I don't agree with anything a goofer coach might say. If it wasn't for the attitude of especially Mpls/St, Paul goofer fans maybe I would not be so polarized. I personally don't mind the polarization prior to the contest, but I do believe in sportsmanship after it's over. The rivalry should continue but we all know the reason for that. It starts with the arrogance of people like Big 10 Commissioner Jim Delany. I see no reason why some type of consideration for UND hockey as an affiliate to the Big 10 couldn't have been made or at least discussed. If it was I never heard about it.

2. Efficiency and productivity are staples to any successful operation and academics along with athletics are no exception. I agree the Lunatic Fringe at both UND and NDSU will likely never give an inch, but IMO that only makes up 10-15% for each school. That leaves IMO 70-80% of the State proud of the accomplishments of various sports at both schools. If all you do is talk to the Lunatic Fringe at either school it's easy to feel like you do, but as I travel the State I sense a different perspective. North Dakota has things going for it that make us stand out from MT, SD, or ID, similar States in size and scope. And at least in the 1880's we both would have been on the same page. Some of our most influential leaders back then thought the State Penitentiary was the most important institution to be located in your respective community. I do not feel our politicians in this State will do anything but screw things up worse if they get more involved.

3. I see support across the State for UND hockey and I am thankful that NDSU does not have hockey. It would only divide the base of fan support. You are correct in Minnesota's attitude towards NDSU athletics in general and even though UND hockey has been quite different over the years I see that changing if they are not in the same league. Outside of the Lunatic Fringe I personally experienced a great deal of Statewide support for NDSU football when they played Minnesota so I guess it's who you talk to and spend time with that determines perspective. I could care less if UND and NDSU ever play each other in football. I would rather see games against Minnesota, Montana , and the like but that's just personal preference. I would rather defeat gophers, grizzlies, badgers, and bunnies than get into a fight with my bother/sister as the case might be.