NCAA changes to FBS and FCS Football?

[Herd]

If the big 5 or 6 conferences leave the NCAA they will take most of the basketball money with them. The CBS contract for March Madness is based on the big boys playing in the tournament. Neither CBS nor any other network will be willing to pay the NCAA nearly the same amount of money without the big conferences. That gives the big conferences power to potentially overhaul what Division I looks like, including the number of schools that are part of Division I. The membership of the NCAA will strongly consider any proposal to realign as long as they can keep the big basketball contract.

You just don't seem to grasp that this has the potential to be a whole new world in college athletics. The rules that everyone knows right now may have nothing to do with the rules that will control college athletics in the future. But none of these new rules have been decided yet, so you constantly asking what those rules are going to be is a waste of time. No one knows what the final result will be. What they do know is that things are about to change. The rest is speculation.

So, "there is a potential for a whole new world of college athletics"? Hey dont go out too far on that Limb. Duh, is all i can say to that. Seems like the Emperor has no clothes when it comes to more than obvious and blanket statements.

[82SiouxGuy]

So, "there is a potential for a whole new world of college athletics"? Hey dont go out too far on that Limb. Duh, is all i can say to that. Seems like the Emperor has no clothes when it comes to more than obvious and blanket statements.

How can I tell you exactly what is going to happen when the end result is going to be a result of negotiation? Absolutely no one can tell you exactly what is going to happen. The possibilities are wide open. Yet you keep coming here and demanding that people tell you what that future is going to look like. You are the one that kept telling everyone that nothing was going to change. You kept saying that they couldn't make major changes because they have to follow the rules of 63 and 85 scholarships. At least you realize that something is going to change.

You can currently break Division I into 5 groups. There are the big schools that have football at the BCS level, the next group that consists of football schools in FBS but not in the BCS, FCS football schools, non-scholarship football schools, and non-football schools. There are over 300 schools total in Division I. But most of the attention goes to the biggest conferences, and along with that goes most of the money. If the big schools are going to force changes in football, they might as well change the entire structure to suit them. Big schools don't want to be in the same group as smaller schools. Here is an example that you might understand, NDSUAAS got tired of being in the same football class as Duluth and Moorhead. Doesn't it make sense that the big conferences don't want to be part of the same group as the small schools?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

How can I tell you exactly what is going to happen when the end result is going to be a result of negotiation? Absolutely no one can tell you exactly what is going to happen. The possibilities are wide open. Yet you keep coming here and demanding that people tell you what that future is going to look like. You are the one that kept telling everyone that nothing was going to change. You kept saying that they couldn't make major changes because they have to follow the rules of 63 and 85 scholarships. At least you realize that something is going to change.

You can currently break Division I into 5 groups. There are the big schools that have football at the BCS level, the next group that consists of football schools in FBS but not in the BCS, FCS football schools, non-scholarship football schools, and non-football schools. There are over 300 schools total in Division I. But most of the attention goes to the biggest conferences, and along with that goes most of the money. If the big schools are going to force changes in football, they might as well change the entire structure to suit them. Big schools don't want to be in the same group as smaller schools. Here is an example that you might understand, NDSUAAS got tired of being in the same football class as Duluth and Moorhead. Doesn't it make sense that the big conferences don't want to be part of the same group as the small schools?

If the NCAA doesn't want to do this, then can't the big 5 conferences you speak of technically start their own collegiate sports organization? I would think the threat of that would be overwhelming to the NCAA and they would most likely comply with whatever the big conferences want - to not do so, would put the majority of their revenue and power at risk, correct?

I also see the other half of this is that the schools who are not fully ready (e.g. Funding $) and capable (Athletic programs necessary) are going to have to make some big choices...

[SiouxVolley]

So, "there is a potential for a whole new world of college athletics"? Hey dont go out too far on that Limb. Duh, is all i can say to that. Seems like the Emperor has no clothes when it comes to more than obvious and blanket statements.

The FBS schools will be in one pool and the nobodies will be in another pool with no stipend for athletes. That what the proposal says. Non-BCS schools have much more political power that FCS schools, so there won't be a political outcry when FBS trys to control its own future.

[82SiouxGuy]

If the NCAA doesn't want to do this, then can't the big 5 conferences you speak of technically start their own collegiate sports organization? I would think the threat of that would be overwhelming to the NCAA and they would most likely comply with whatever the big conferences want - to not do so, would put the majority of their revenue and power at risk, correct?

I also see the other half of this is that the schools who are not fully ready (e.g. Funding $) and capable (Athletic programs necessary) are going to have to make some big choices...

You are completely correct. That is why the NCAA has taken notice and why they are willing to discuss the issue. The big conferences have the power right now because the money will follow them. The television contracts are based on the popularity of the big schools. If the big schools set up their own organization, most of the television money would follow them. The NCAA uses DI basketball money to run the organization and to distribute millions to all of the member schools. Most of that money would disappear if the big schools leave. The NCAA does not want this to happen and most member schools don't want this to happen, so they are going to be willing to make compromises. I don't think that the NCAA will give the big schools everything they ask for, but the big schools will probably get most of what they want.

Compromise means that not everyone gets everything they want. Usually, no one gets everything they want. Some schools will probably have to make some big choices. Some schools could possibly get moved to divisions they don't want to be part of, even against their wishes. A lot of people may not be happy with the final results. It will be interesting to see what things look like in 3 or 5 years.

[The Sicatoka]

Plus there's now talk of the NCAA taking on a confederation structure, where each sport would set its own minimums (scholarships, schedules, etc.) for level of play. That's very different from today's structure.

Someone in the past, on this site, talked about a "cafeteria plan" approach to sport alignments which is exactly like a confederation structure.

Not to pat myself on the back too hard but I bet you can guess which poster that was.

[bincitysioux]

I really find it hard to believe that the BCS conferences are just going to break away from the NCAA and start their own association. They basically have their "own" association when it comes to football. One could argue that it would make sense for them to do the same with Men's Basketball. But what about the rest of their sports? Most members of the "Power Conferences" sponsor upwards of 20 to 25 sports. They need opponents and championships to play for. That is what NCAA affiliation provides. Every power conference has its bottom feeders. I doubt schools like Minnesota and Illinois are going to be on board with cutting the pool of potential opponents for their non-revenue sports from over 300 to 60 or so. The NCAA allows the big schools to have free reign over their football. I think in the future they'll get even more free reign and that will satisfy them...............

[82SiouxGuy]

I really find it hard to believe that the BCS conferences are just going to break away from the NCAA and start their own association. They basically have their "own" association when it comes to football. One could argue that it would make sense for them to do the same with Men's Basketball. But what about the rest of their sports? Most members of the "Power Conferences" sponsor upwards of 20 to 25 sports. They need opponents and championships to play for. That is what NCAA affiliation provides. Every power conference has its bottom feeders. I doubt schools like Minnesota and Illinois are going to be on board with cutting the pool of potential opponents for their non-revenue sports from over 300 to 60 or so. The NCAA allows the big schools to have free reign over their football. I think in the future they'll get even more free reign and that will satisfy them...............

I don't think they want to break away, either. But it is a viable option for them and leverage they can use to get what they want. The BCS conferences want to separate themselves from the smaller FBS conferences. They only need 3 or 4 out of conference football games, so they don't need more than 60-80 schools to be very successful. They don't want 300+ schools in their division for basketball. They don't want schools from conferences like the Sun Belt, the Summit and the Big Sky considered on the same level as schools from the Big 10, the SEC and the other big conferences. And they want more control over their own destiny. Right now the smaller schools can band together to make rules that the big schools don't want. The big schools would like to make their own rules. Those are the main areas of concern that seem to be driving these actions by the big conferences.

[bincitysioux]

I'm not sure it is a viable option. The NCAA has turned the other cheek to sponsoring major college football for good reason, IMO. They can do this I believe because they have a stranglehold on every other college sport.

Since the dawn of time, the NCAA has not regulated (sponsored a championship) for major college football. They have for every other sport. If the BCS schools break away, they would still have to come with a solution to maintain and fund 90% of their athletic department from which they'd receive no assitance from the NCAA. IMO, what the NCAA does, is provide infrastructure for member institutions to operate within.

Title IX is a huge aspect to this as well. Many sports sponsored by schools are done to comply with Title IX. If football and men's basketball are your major sports, how would depleting the opponent pool for all sports by 80% work to comply with this federal law? It just wouldn't.

My guess is that the current BCS schools will continue to tweek and modify things as they see fit. TV networks desire to cover them will dictate that. The NCAA won't care too much, because honestly they don't have a dog in the fight as far as football goes.

[JohnboyND7]

Okay, we get it.

You don't like reality.

Tough.

Ok, mind telling us all why UND went D-I? For the chance to dance every now and again? Or for the chance to make it to the national tourney in volleyball? Or was it because they didn't want to be the only Dakota school not playing D-I football? Methinks it was the third one...no reason to go D-I if hockey is UND's only priority.

You claim D-I hockey is this great thing...in all honesty it is something to be proud of....but you trash on FCS. You know deep down, that if hockey was even remotely popular south of the Mason-Dixon line...or in most states north of it for that matter...that UND hockey would be in a similar situation as the football team...that must hurt someone like you...knowing that if America ever randomly decided to truly embrace the sport of the Great White North....that UND would end up being a member of the Ivy League of hockey. A powerhouse at one time...and now...just a team who cant compete with the B1G, PAC-12, Big XII, SEC, etc.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

But my understanding of the NCAA was that it began to help form athletic leagues and championships for college sports...If the big boys want something else, then what stops them from founding their own sports organization like the NCAA and doing all of the things it already does for them? I think the monopoly the NCAA has enjoyed in this realm of sports should be challenged and I think the big 5 confereneces would be stupid not to considering the amount of money they would get to keep versus distributing to other, less popular programs in the country. Am I crazy to think this? Wouldn't a Alabama or Nebraska or USC want more of the revenue and more control over collegiate sports?

[Herd]

An FBS / FCS split may occur by next year so there is time. Keep in mind that the FBS side, no matter how weak the conference, will gain the option of offering a stipend, which mid-major basketball conferences will be unable to do. The FBS side will have overall benefits within the NCAA structure, no matter if it the weakest FBS conference. Just the perception of playing at the highest level will matter.

The Big 5 have decided to bring along the rest of the FBS (it still needs the games, playing them considerably raises the Big 5 record and ensures the majority of the Big 5 have enough home games and a winning record). The Big Ten would have an average losing record if it couldn't play the MAC. The Big 5 throws a bone to the other FBS conferences, offering them enhanced standing which will strengthen the rest of all their programs relative to FCS and non-football leagues. Its a brilliant move by the Big 5, as they won;t be a political backlash.

The lowest level league in FBS, even if new, will have enormous advantages in perception in recruiting for non-football athletes.

So the sunbelt will be allowed to offer stipends, but the Big East wont? I dont agree with that.

[82SiouxGuy]

But my understanding of the NCAA was that it began to help form athletic leagues and championships for college sports...If the big boys want something else, then what stops them from founding their own sports organization like the NCAA and doing all of the things it already does for them? I think the monopoly the NCAA has enjoyed in this realm of sports should be challenged and I think the big 5 confereneces would be stupid not to considering the amount of money they would get to keep versus distributing to other, less popular programs in the country. Am I crazy to think this? Wouldn't a Alabama or Nebraska or USC want more of the revenue and more control over collegiate sports?

The NCAA was originally created to help protect the athletes. At the time, football was very dangerous because of a lack of rules and a lack of safety equipment. Many people wanted to abolish football. President Theodore Roosevelt called some college athletic leaders to Washington to address the situation. The NCAA was the end result (under a different name). They started as a rule making body to standardize rules across the country and to improve the safety of the student-athletes. They didn't start hosting championships until 1921. Now they hold both purposes, rule making and holding championships.

The biggest schools already get most of the money. They can probably get more with some restructuring. Whether they would get enough extra by going out on there own would be questionable. But they need a significant number of schools to go with them because they need schools to compete against. 60-80 is probably a bare minimum. They are going to have to cooperate with these other schools, a few schools won't have enough pull to take control. And it does take a lot of work to coordinate all of college athletics. Most people only think about the big sports. The NCAA coordinates 89 championships, in 23 different sports and 3 divisions. A new organization would have to recreate much of that, only on a smaller scale. They would probably have to create administration for 20 or more sports, coordinate the championships, deal with television and other administration, etc. In other words, it would take a lot of work and cost money. The benefits gained by going out on their own may not be worth the time and money it would take to accomplish.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

What kind of budget increase would UND need to achieve the FBS status should it roll out like many are thinking on this board right now? I believe 2011 data shows the budgeted costs at $17,512,292...I got this from an .gov site...

[82SiouxGuy]

What kind of budget increase would UND need to achieve the FBS status should it roll out like many are thinking on this board right now? I believe 2011 data shows the budgeted costs at $17,512,292...I got this from an .gov site...

Like most of this discussion, that is almost impossible to predict right now. It will depend on how things end up being structured. I believe that when Montana was looking at moving up a couple of years ago they thought it would cost $4-6,000,000 at a minimum. That would cover additional scholarships for football and for women's sports, plus increased coaches salaries and travel costs. If this 2nd division ends up with a compromise of lower than 85 scholarships, and brings all 4 of the Dakota schools into the same football conference, that number could be lower. But that number will definitely be in the low $20,000,000 range anyway.

[Cratter]

The FBS schools will be in one pool and the nobodies will be in another pool with no stipend for athletes. That what the proposal says. Non-BCS schools have much more political power that FCS schools, so there won't be a political outcry when FBS trys to control its own future.

And in the future that stipend could really grow from the say $2,000 to $10,000. And High School kids might rather be backups on FBS teams to FCS teams ensuring a greater gap so if those higher and lower division teams still play every now and then. The FBS teams won't get embarrassed by losing.

They are noticing the scholarship discrepancy isn't enough.

[Cratter]

If I were to guess college athletics has more money rolling into it than the NFL and NBA combined. And that might just be at the Division I level.

If you ask me some of those big football programs have so much money coming into their hands they don't know what to do with it! You can't pay Nick Sabin much more money because isn't his contract greater than some NFL coaches? They really want to pay players. You could argue a future star in the NFL or basketball has a lot to lose by taking a chance in college athletics and they are now recruiting against the major leagues (Lebron James vs the Michael Jordan types).

And with these new tv network college athletics money deals that never really existed before say ten to 20 years ago, they are seeing huge increases in revenue. In the future it will no longer be how many scholarships can you afford to offer but how much money can you afford to offer.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I think this sets up an interesting dilemma for college sports...one where the student athelete might be getting paid if the big boys leave the NCAA and start coming up with a new sports regulating body for their new conference. I am not a big fan of the NCAA which is think is a monopoly and gets to deep into social engineering versus managing athletic games and conferences. Needless to say I would not cry a tear for their demise, but I would be concerned about what effect that would have on UND and other FCS programs going forward...