Jump to FBS

[Cratter]

Herd you didn't get the memo? Football is different than basketball where smaller schools can't compete because those other schools have more money. Insert sarcasm. I agree there won't be three division I playing schools. It's like the NCAA should create different divisions for all sports!!! Ha

There is also talk of north Dakota dropping the name North. And Texas becoming its own country!

[82SiouxGuy]

If the Top 5 conferences of FBS (B1G, SEC, P12, B12. ACC) is going to separate themselves from the bottom 5 conferences (BE, MWC, MAC, CUSA, SBelt), how will this be accomplished?

Way #1: I don't think they can tell the bottom conferences, you have to reduce scholarships from 85

Way #2: I don't think the top conference will get an ncaa Ok to increase scholarships beyond 85 to separate themselves. This would create problems and separation within the top conferences as some could not afford it. It would also create problems with scholarship on the womens side.

Way #3: I don't think the top conferences can leave the ncaa (and amateur status) for football and still maintain requirements for college basketball in the ncaa. I don't think these conferences want to leave the ncaa for basketball.

Way #4: I don't think the Top 5 can have a championship at the same scholarship level as the bottom 5 and tell them they can't compete for it. Yes, they can keep it a 4 team championship and try to lock them out, but in the long run, access will need to be granted for teams at the same scholarship level.

Way #5: Simply spending more? I don't think you can designate a championship by the dollar level you are spending, that would be a poor precident to set. Top championship = > $50 mil; Second Level = < $50 mil? I don't see that happening. This dollar discrepancy is what is great about college BB, and the championship.

Please, fill me in on the details of how this is going to work? Everyone is talking about it, but I'd like someone to explain how it could logically happen.

The NCAA doesn't have their own championship for FBS football. The BCS is a separate organization. They put together the bowls and arrange the championship. The NCAA just recognizes that winner (the NCAA may have a piece of the BCS). The big conferences dominate the BCS. If they want to get rid of the smaller conferences, they can do that. That would leave the smaller 4-6 conferences without any kind of championship. That is one way that the NCAA would be forced to reallocate schools at different levels. The by product of that could be the BCS level, a level made up of the smaller FBS conferences and a few larger FCS conferences, and a third level of smaller schools.

Also, as has been pointed out multiple times, the NCAA is a voluntary organization. There is no reason that the larger conferences have to remain in the NCAA. They could very easily leave as a group and form their own organization. Then they would make the rules and not have to give in to the smaller schools that dominate the NCAA. It could be very lucrative for them. Much of the money that comes into the NCAA from the NCAA basketball tournament would follow them to their organization. The big schools would pull in huge dollars from basketball and from football, either from the bowls or from a playoff system. Again, they wouldn't have to split that money with the smaller schools. You would have 3 organizations running college athletics. The NAIA would have a lot of the smaller programs, the NCAA the bulk of the programs in the middle, and the new organization with the top programs. They could still compete against each other if they wanted, NCAA schools play against NAIA schools.

The NCAA might also be willing to negotiate a new system with the big conferences, just to keep them in the NCAA. If the big conferences were to leave they would take most of the TV money. The NCAA might be willing to make major changes to the system just to keep the money rolling in. That TV money is important to a lot of smaller DI schools. Without it, the rest of DI is just a bigger version of DII, and a lot of smaller DI schools would have to look at moving down.

These are 3 ways that the system could be changed to the big schools advantage. You really seem to lack any imagination. Or else you are too locked into the system as it currently exists. This thing isn't set in stone, they can change the rules in any way they want. You are right about one thing, most of this is going to come down to money. How much money do the big schools want to keep and how much are they willing to share with the smaller schools?

[Bison06]

The NCAA doesn't have their own championship for FBS football. The BCS is a separate organization. They put together the bowls and arrange the championship. The NCAA just recognizes that winner (the NCAA may have a piece of the BCS). The big conferences dominate the BCS. If they want to get rid of the smaller conferences, they can do that. That would leave the smaller 4-6 conferences without any kind of championship. That is one way that the NCAA would be forced to reallocate schools at different levels. The by product of that could be the BCS level, a level made up of the smaller FBS conferences and a few larger FCS conferences, and a third level of smaller schools.

Also, as has been pointed out multiple times, the NCAA is a voluntary organization. There is no reason that the larger conferences have to remain in the NCAA. They could very easily leave as a group and form their own organization. Then they would make the rules and not have to give in to the smaller schools that dominate the NCAA. It could be very lucrative for them. Much of the money that comes into the NCAA from the NCAA basketball tournament would follow them to their organization. The big schools would pull in huge dollars from basketball and from football, either from the bowls or from a playoff system. Again, they wouldn't have to split that money with the smaller schools. You would have 3 organizations running college athletics. The NAIA would have a lot of the smaller programs, the NCAA the bulk of the programs in the middle, and the new organization with the top programs. They could still compete against each other if they wanted, NCAA schools play against NAIA schools.

The NCAA might also be willing to negotiate a new system with the big conferences, just to keep them in the NCAA. If the big conferences were to leave they would take most of the TV money. The NCAA might be willing to make major changes to the system just to keep the money rolling in. That TV money is important to a lot of smaller DI schools. Without it, the rest of DI is just a bigger version of DII, and a lot of smaller DI schools would have to look at moving down.

These are 3 ways that the system could be changed to the big schools advantage. You really seem to lack any imagination. Or else you are too locked into the system as it currently exists. This thing isn't set in stone, they can change the rules in any way they want. You are right about one thing, most of this is going to come down to money. How much money do the big schools want to keep and how much are they willing to share with the smaller schools?

Nice write up and I actually see this exact thing happening the way many of you guys do.

I will say that you are missing one key bargaining chip that the NCAA would have. They could very easily ban their member schools from playing this new division if those "big schools" don't end things amicably with the NCAA. That would lead to many, many problems for the bigger schools IMO. Fighting for OOC home games would be an absolute mess without some of these smaller schools looking for a pay day away game.

Other than that I think your assessment is spot on.

[Cratter]

There is five top tier and five bottom tier? How much money does the Mountain West take away from the Pac Ten because it exists?

[GFG]

So the top confernces would raise scholarship levels by 20-35. Thank you, a specific idea . . . not very clean to accomplish for many reasons . . . but a specific idea none the less. This would likely need to be accompanied by a very specific revenue sharing plan in each conference, to prevent total finanical collapse at some of the less financially sound schools in the top conferences. I would say that over half of the B1G schools would be in B1G trouble if they had to increase scholarships by 20+20 to stay with Michigan and Ohio St.

I would disagree and say that the only financially sound way to create 3 Levels of DI football would be to create 3 levels with 85 being the max . . .

Level 1 85 scholarships

Level 2 70 scholarships

Leve 3 0-50 scholarships

But then how are you going to force the bottom 5 FBS conferences to reduce to 70 so the top 5 have "separation". And how are you going to get the FCS schools to separate themselves at either 70 or 50, which would tear conferences apart and create a chaotic situation? it's awful easy to say it's going to happen, but the devil is in the details.

I would say you're wrong there. Have you seen how much money the Big Ten Network brings in for those schools? Each school is making millions every year just because of the leagues television contract. In 2016, when the current contract expires, they're expecting the money that BTN gets to be astronomical in terms of college athletics.

Plus if they split into their own division, that's less money they have to split with small schools. Bringing in more and more.

I believe it actually is possible that if those schools want, they can leave the NCAA for football only. I don't see a reason why they can't?

One of two things IS going to happen at some point:

1. The major conferences get their own division of NCAA football

2. The major conferences leave the NCAA for football and start their own association for football. Heck, they could do it with all sports if they want.

The NCAA gets to choose which one happens

[darell1976]

The NCAA doesn't have their own championship for FBS football. The BCS is a separate organization. They put together the bowls and arrange the championship. The NCAA just recognizes that winner (the NCAA may have a piece of the BCS). The big conferences dominate the BCS. If they want to get rid of the smaller conferences, they can do that. That would leave the smaller 4-6 conferences without any kind of championship. That is one way that the NCAA would be forced to reallocate schools at different levels. The by product of that could be the BCS level, a level made up of the smaller FBS conferences and a few larger FCS conferences, and a third level of smaller schools.

Also, as has been pointed out multiple times, the NCAA is a voluntary organization. There is no reason that the larger conferences have to remain in the NCAA. They could very easily leave as a group and form their own organization. Then they would make the rules and not have to give in to the smaller schools that dominate the NCAA. It could be very lucrative for them. Much of the money that comes into the NCAA from the NCAA basketball tournament would follow them to their organization. The big schools would pull in huge dollars from basketball and from football, either from the bowls or from a playoff system. Again, they wouldn't have to split that money with the smaller schools. You would have 3 organizations running college athletics. The NAIA would have a lot of the smaller programs, the NCAA the bulk of the programs in the middle, and the new organization with the top programs. They could still compete against each other if they wanted, NCAA schools play against NAIA schools.

The NCAA might also be willing to negotiate a new system with the big conferences, just to keep them in the NCAA. If the big conferences were to leave they would take most of the TV money. The NCAA might be willing to make major changes to the system just to keep the money rolling in. That TV money is important to a lot of smaller DI schools. Without it, the rest of DI is just a bigger version of DII, and a lot of smaller DI schools would have to look at moving down.

These are 3 ways that the system could be changed to the big schools advantage. You really seem to lack any imagination. Or else you are too locked into the system as it currently exists. This thing isn't set in stone, they can change the rules in any way they want. You are right about one thing, most of this is going to come down to money. How much money do the big schools want to keep and how much are they willing to share with the smaller schools?

Say these big conferences move out of the NCAA...would teams of other sports allow this like Minnesota in hockey and Duke in Lacrosse? (You can't be out of the NCAA and play in these sports). This is a catch 22 for teams like the Gophers and Badgers. Either move with the BSC and drop NCAA hockey or move out of the B1G and keep NCAA hockey.

[GFG]

The NCAA doesn't have their own championship for FBS football. The BCS is a separate organization. They put together the bowls and arrange the championship. The NCAA just recognizes that winner (the NCAA may have a piece of the BCS). The big conferences dominate the BCS. If they want to get rid of the smaller conferences, they can do that. That would leave the smaller 4-6 conferences without any kind of championship. That is one way that the NCAA would be forced to reallocate schools at different levels. The by product of that could be the BCS level, a level made up of the smaller FBS conferences and a few larger FCS conferences, and a third level of smaller schools.

Also, as has been pointed out multiple times, the NCAA is a voluntary organization. There is no reason that the larger conferences have to remain in the NCAA. They could very easily leave as a group and form their own organization. Then they would make the rules and not have to give in to the smaller schools that dominate the NCAA. It could be very lucrative for them. Much of the money that comes into the NCAA from the NCAA basketball tournament would follow them to their organization. The big schools would pull in huge dollars from basketball and from football, either from the bowls or from a playoff system. Again, they wouldn't have to split that money with the smaller schools. You would have 3 organizations running college athletics. The NAIA would have a lot of the smaller programs, the NCAA the bulk of the programs in the middle, and the new organization with the top programs. They could still compete against each other if they wanted, NCAA schools play against NAIA schools.

The NCAA might also be willing to negotiate a new system with the big conferences, just to keep them in the NCAA. If the big conferences were to leave they would take most of the TV money. The NCAA might be willing to make major changes to the system just to keep the money rolling in. That TV money is important to a lot of smaller DI schools. Without it, the rest of DI is just a bigger version of DII, and a lot of smaller DI schools would have to look at moving down.

These are 3 ways that the system could be changed to the big schools advantage. You really seem to lack any imagination. Or else you are too locked into the system as it currently exists. This thing isn't set in stone, they can change the rules in any way they want. You are right about one thing, most of this is going to come down to money. How much money do the big schools want to keep and how much are they willing to share with the smaller schools?

This.

[Bison06]

I would say you're wrong there. Have you seen how much money the Big Ten Network brings in for those schools? Each school is making millions every year just because of the leagues television contract. In 2016, when the current contract expires, they're expecting the money that BTN gets to be astronomical in terms of college athletics.

Plus if they split into their own division, that's less money they have to split with small schools. Bringing in more and more.

I believe it actually is possible that if those schools want, they can leave the NCAA for football only. I don't see a reason why they can't?

One of two things IS going to happen at some point:

1. The major conferences get their own division of NCAA football

2. The major conferences leave the NCAA for football and start their own association for football. Heck, they could do it with all sports if they want.

The NCAA gets to choose which one happens

They would never want to not be associated with the NCAA in basketball. There is no way to match the excitement of the NCAA tournament with the possibility of the "smaller schools" upsetting big schools. From my perspective, the NCAA has a lot more negotiating power than you all are saying.

They could hold these schools hostage for the NCAA tournament if they wanted. I don't see the NCAA letting these schools out without making them pay for it BIG TIME. In the end, a separate division within the NCAA is the only viable option for them, IMO. The NCAA just has too much they can take away from these larger schools.

[GFG]

Say these big conferences move out of the NCAA...would teams of other sports allow this like Minnesota in hockey and Duke in Lacrosse? (You can't be out of the NCAA and play in these sports). This is a catch 22 for teams like the Gophers and Badgers. Either move with the BSC and drop NCAA hockey or move out of the B1G and keep NCAA hockey.

There's quite a few teams that would be going with those two that have college hockey. Basically EVERY big "historical" college hockey program but UND and DU would be gone.

I'm not sure if you can be members for some sports with the NCAA or if they require full membership.

[GFG]

They would never want to not be associated with the NCAA in basketball. There is no way to match the excitement of the NCAA tournament with the possibility of the "smaller schools" upsetting big schools. From my perspective, the NCAA has a lot more negotiating power than you all are saying.

They could hold these schools hostage for the NCAA tournament if they wanted. I don't see the NCAA letting these schools out without making them pay for it BIG TIME. In the end, a separate division within the NCAA is the only viable option for them, IMO. The NCAA just has too much they can take away from these larger schools.

If the 6 major conferences bring their basketball programs with, what does the NCAA have? Literally nothing. Who's going to watch a tournament with all small schools when they can watch a tournament between the 6 major conferences. Either way, the NCAA would never consider banning all major conference schools from the NCAA tournament because, like I said, money and viewership would be almost non-existant.

All the conferences have to do is take their football and basketball away from the NCAA and it completely cripples them financially. The NCAA will have no choice but to do what the 6 major conferences want to do if they want to remain powerful.

[homer]

I'm sure this article with the Texas AD has been posted before.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2012-05-13/texas-william-powers-split-division-i-football/54959996/1

[Cratter]

They would never want to not be associated with the NCAA in basketball. There is no way to match the excitement of the NCAA tournament with the possibility of the "smaller schools" upsetting big schools. From my perspective, the NCAA has a lot more negotiating power than you all are saying.

They could hold these schools hostage for the NCAA tournament if they wanted. I don't see the NCAA letting these schools out without making them pay for it BIG TIME. In the end, a separate division within the NCAA is the only viable option for them, IMO. The NCAA just has too much they can take away from these larger schools.

Don't ya think if they broke off. The current march madness would be a shell of its former self? With the big schools own basketball tournament bringing in its own larger tv contract. Don't ya think they'd invite other big name basketball only schools to join them and form a conference. It would be like pro sports. U will be in this league/conference.

[Cratter]

I'm sure this article with the Texas AD has been posted before.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2012-05-13/texas-william-powers-split-division-i-football/54959996/1

The thing is its already happened. He's making a point his school should join the FCS!

"" "We may get to a point — I want to underline the word may — where many schools are really not in a position to compete at the level of the Floridas and the Notre Dames and the Texases and the USCs," he says. "Like any competitive business, being in it and not really being in the game, you can get hurt. Will there be some restructuring? I am not a fan of some national league, but we may end up with 50 schools in (the upper football division of the NCAA's) Division I.""""

[Bison06]

Don't ya think if they broke off. The current march madness would be a shell of its former self? With the big schools own basketball tournament bringing in its own larger tv contract. Don't ya think they'd invite other big name basketball only schools to join them and form a conference. It would be like pro sports. U will be in this league/conference.

I am not so sure about that. Basketball is very different than football, people don't just want to see the big schools when March rolls around, they want to see the David vs. Goliath matchups.

I don't think it's as simple in basketball as it is in football. We'll see, I just see the NCAA basketball tournament as a major bargaining chip to make sure the big boys don't leave the NCAA.

[GFG]

I am not so sure about that. Basketball is very different than football, people don't just want to see the big schools when March rolls around, they want to see the David vs. Goliath matchups.

I don't think it's as simple in basketball as it is in football. We'll see, I just see the NCAA basketball tournament as a major bargaining chip to make sure the big boys don't leave the NCAA.

The major conferences could care less about the small schools having a chance to upset them. If they left the NCAA they get all the viewers and money transferred to them because that's what everyone is going to watch.

[Bison06]

If the 6 major conferences bring their basketball programs with, what does the NCAA have? Literally nothing. Who's going to watch a tournament with all small schools when they can watch a tournament between the 6 major conferences. Either way, the NCAA would never consider banning all major conference schools from the NCAA tournament because, like I said, money and viewership would be almost non-existant.

All the conferences have to do is take their football and basketball away from the NCAA and it completely cripples them financially. The NCAA will have no choice but to do what the 6 major conferences want to do if they want to remain powerful.

I am not saying they won't have their own division, I am just saying I don't see it very likely to be separate from the NCAA because of the scheduling issues I posted about earlier and the NCAA basketball tournament. I am sure there are thousands of other things the NCAA might bring up if these schools wanted to part ways with the NCAA.

You really think the NCAA is going to allow their member schools to count games with the "big schools" toward bowl eligibility if they are no longer part of their program?

Think of the scheduling issues for those big schools when they are all fighting each other for OOC home games in football. The big schools in a way need the smaller schools, not as much as the small schools need the big schools, but you get my point I think.

[Bison06]

The major conferences could care less about the small schools having a chance to upset them. If they left the NCAA they get all the viewers and money transferred to them because that's what everyone is going to watch.

Never said they did, but viewers do. I just think the tournament loses a lot of it's luster if there isn't the pageantry and the drama that upsets make.

I don't speak for everyone of course, but I can say without a doubt that my interest in that tournament would be significantly less if you didn't have 15 vs. 2 and 14 vs. 3 type matchups. Some of the best story lines of ALL TIME are due to the format of the tournament. It would take viewers a long time to accept a tournament made up exclusively of SEC, B1G, BIG East, Pac 10 and Big 12 schools.

[Cratter]

What chip? The NCAA would be bargaining with the CIT.

[Cratter]

Whitchita state. Marquette gonzaga. Will be the new cinderellas. Few people really know about them because they don't have football inthe grand scheme of things.

[GFG]

Never said they did, but viewers do. I just think the tournament loses a lot of it's luster if there isn't the pageantry and the drama that upsets make.

I don't speak for everyone of course, but I can say without a doubt that my interest in that tournament would be significantly less if you didn't have 15 vs. 2 and 14 vs. 3 type matchups. Some of the best story lines of ALL TIME are due to the format of the tournament. It would take viewers a long time to accept a tournament made up exclusively of SEC, B1G, BIG East, Pac 10 and Big 12 schools.

I don't think it would take long for viewers to accept it, frankly because it would feature the best teams in the country.

[Cratter]

The issue lies when the NCAA decided to split divisions within a division of a certain sport. Why stop at three subdivisions for division I football? Valparaiso and Drake can't compete in football right now!

[Bison06]

Whitchita state. Marquette gonzaga. Will be the new cinderellas. Few people really know about them because they don't have football inthe grand scheme of things.

You think the NCAA would allow it's members to play in a new tournament outside the NCAA and still keep good standing with the NCAA in their other sports? I'm not so sure about that.

If Wichita, Gonzaga and Marquette aren't a part of these new conferences in all sports, I don't see why the NCAA would just 'let' them play in a post season tournament other than thier own.

[Bison06]

I don't think it would take long for viewers to accept it, frankly because it would feature the best teams in the country.

That may be so, I think the tournament has such a large following BECAUSE of those smaller schools, you think it has large rating despite the smaller schools. Agree to disagree.

I do see the larger schools splitting into a different division, just not outside of the NCAA.

[darell1976]

There's quite a few teams that would be going with those two that have college hockey. Basically EVERY big "historical" college hockey program but UND and DU would be gone.

I'm not sure if you can be members for some sports with the NCAA or if they require full membership.

I think you have to be NCAA members to play all sports. You don't see an NAIA team in NCAA hockey. It's all or nothing. Basically the the Big Ten hockey conference would be no more if those schools left the NCAA.

[Cratter]

How much money is the Big Ten losing in football because the MAC exists?