Wondering About Assists

[kr]

Yesterday I watched the tapes from this weekend's games and something which was said got me wondering about the distribution of points for assists.

Who determines who gets an assist? Is it an employee of the arena, employee of UND, employee of the league? If it is someone from the U, is it just "one" person or can whomever is available do it? Are assists reviewed by the league? Are assists ever taken away "after the fact" (ie a week down the road)?

Funniest part of the broadcast: "Up here they give assists for everything -- always give out the most you can give, blah, blah, blah" -- that is a loose quote --- next two goals for UND were: a goal with ONE assist and a goal with NO assist(s)

Does UND have a reputation for giving out TOO many assists? And since that was what was stated by the announcer, why hasn't the league cracked down? Or is it something which happens at all the schools? (this is just a random thought which has no bearing on this season, but is this "reputation" for alledged cheap & easy assists a reason why Panzer didn't get a lot of votes from the WCHA coaches for the Hobey?)

[StarzUND]

Wouldn't the officials determine who get the assists based one who were the last two players on that team to play the puck? Some times a player might say, I should of had that assist, or that assist should go to that player... There can only be 2 assists per goal. I don't know about college, but in the USHL they have changed assists ( and goals) after the scoring but before the sheet is signed off. This probably doesn't help a lot though.

[redwing77]

Ref says who got the goal when he skates by the scorer's table. My impression iis that those people add assists. I've watched Campion and other refs perform this duty but he doesn't mouth or sign any assists to my knowledge. I say sign because usually the ref will sign the goal scorer's number with his fingers.

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

The Refs do tell the scorer who it was. It is quick though...

"3 from 11 and 14."...Jones from Parise and Murray.

[schmidtdoggydog]

I believe all scoring is reviewed in the press box before it becomes official.

Assists are added, subtracted and changed on occasion. Against Yale this year, when it appeared McMahon knocked in a shot by Fylling, the goal was given to Fylling and McMahon was not given credit for an assist when announced by Hennen, rather it went to Hale. However, during the next period they announced the change in scoring and took the assist away from Hale and credited to McMahon.

A lot of times players don't get assists when they should and some players have a tendency to receive assists when they shouldn't (think Jason Blake). If you watch the tape of the the Yale series there is a play when Bochenski is fighting for the puck in the corner and it appears that Prpich comes out with puck and essentially skates it out to Jones who shoots and scores. Official scoring, Jones from Bochenski, nothing for MP.

Why or how that happens is beyond me especially if the goals are reviewed.

[PCM]

Shame on Doug Woog. I suspect that his comment was based on a column by Greg Wong of the St. Paul Pioneer Press back in 2001 when Jeff Panzer was up for the Hobey Baker Award. Wong wrote in his college hockey column that Panzer received "phantom assists" when playing at home and thus his nation-leading point total was artificially inflated.

I clearly remember this because some Hockey East fans seized upon it. They claimed that Brian Gionta was more deserving of the Hobey than Panzer because he had a few more goals, but not nearly as many assists. I went through the exercise of breaking down the assists Panzer received at home and away. He'd actually picked up more assists on the road than he did at home. So much for "home cooking" theories.

It would have been nice if Wong had done a bit of research before saying that Panzer was the beneficiary of biased stats keeping. Who knows how much that false statement hurt Panzer's chance of winning the Hobey.

Apparently Woog is following in Wong's footsteps. If he'd spend a little time reading the 2004 NCAA Men's and Women's Ice Hockey Rules and Interpetations, he'd know there are specific procedures in place for assuring that players are properly credited for goals and assists.

I'm not saying that this system always gets the scoring right, but it does make it extremely difficult for anyone to "cook the books" and inflate a player's points, regardless of whether a team is playing at home or away. Here's what the rules say:

Rule 5-2/Officials and Operating Systems/HR 45-46

Referee(s)

SECTION 3. The duties of the referee(s) are as follows:

e. Announce to the official scorer or penalty timekeeper all goals and assists legally scored, as well as penalties and for what infractions such penalties are assessed. However, conferences and tournament directors may determine an alternate policy for awarding assists.

The referee shall ensure that the name of the goal scorer and any player entitled to an assist are announced on the public address system.

Rule 5-7/Officials and Operating Systems/HR 49

Official Scorer

SECTION 8.b.The official scorer shall keep a record of the goals scored and who scored them and players to whom assists have been credited and shall indicate those players on the lists who have actually taken part in the game.

Note: Both schools should participate in any changes involving scoring.

c. The official scorer shall ensure that the awarding of points for goals and assists are announced over the public address system, and all changes in such awards also are announced in the same manner.

Requests for changes in any awarding of points shall not be considered unless the are made by the team representative to the referee at or before the conclusion of actual play in the game.

d. The official scorer also shall prepare the official score sheet for the referee's signature.

As anyone who has attended a few games knows, sometimes changes are made in scoring during the course of a game. That usually happens when it was unclear who last touched the puck before it went in the net or who should receive first and second assists.

At the REA, if there is a question about scoring, the hockey sports information directors from each team review the taped replay between periods. If they determine that the scoring is incorrect, they can request that the referee and official scorer make the necessary change. Both SIDs must agree on the change, as stated by the NCAA rules.

[schmidtdoggydog]

Both SIDs must agree on the change, as stated by the NCAA rules.

That hasn't lead to any battles in the pressbox, has it?

[PCM]

Why or how that happens is beyond me especially if the goals are reviewed.

All the goals aren't reviewed. I believe they are reviewed only if someone raises a question about about the scoring or if the officials are uncertain about how a goal is scored. If nobody questions it, then it stands as the referee called it and the official scorer lists it.

Sometimes it's a player on the ice who questions the referee's version of the scoring. In the Dec. 27, 2002, game against Brown last season, Brandon Bochenski was seen talking to the ref immediately after David Lundbohm appeared to score a goal. Bochenski told the ref that he thought Lundbohm's shot deflected off his stick just before it went in the net.

That didn't seem possible, but a review of the tape showed that, in fact, the goal was scored the way Bochenski said it was. The scoring was changed to give Bochenski the goal and Lundbohm the first assist. If Brandon hadn't said anything, the goal would have been Lundbohm's.

[PCM]

That hasn't lead to any battles in the pressbox, has it?

If it's happened, I've never seen or heard it.

[kr]

Thanks PCM. I had my doubts about what the Wooger said, but he is a former coach and therefore would have a better idea of how the scoring of assists is granted. I enjoy the Wooger's commentary, BUT he really, really misled the listeners of the broadcast with his comments regarding UND and the granting of assists. I'm sure many people who watched the game on Saturday KNEW that Woog wasn't exactly correct in his multiple statments, however, I'm also sure there were enough casual fans watching the broadcast thinking -- "yah, that UND they're just cheaters" ..... I don't expect Woog to be a cheerleader for UND, however, he doesn't have to go out of his way to cast aspersions on UND.

[CoteauRinkRat]

Anytime a guy has a great season, opposing fans and especially announcers always say that the person always gets added points they don't deserve. I remember when Bonin from Minnesota had that great last year, everyone in the league was talking about his "phantom assists". This same thing was said about Panzer and will be said about anyone who has a great year.

[Canuck]

Here's the official skinny on handing out assists:

First, the referee does NOT give out assists. Goals and assists are awarded by the official scorer, who is stationed in the press box. Like PCM mentioned, most schools review the tape between periods if there is reason to. Sometimes a play just happens too fast for the naked eye to correctly call.

However, I can confidently say that UND has become one of the most accurate schools in awarding goals and assists. In addition to an official scorer, the SID checks each goal on tape immediately after it happens and either verifies or corrects the official scorer.

Woog's comments probably aren't completely unfounded, but they are, however, likely rooted in the past. Phantom scoring goes on all over the place and the most glaring example I can remember is when Peter Sejna was riding his long scoring streak last year and was given an assist half an hour after the game ended to keep his streak alive. He wasn't even on the ice.

To me, that's embarassing. Speaking from experience, if someone deserves an assist, they'll get one. If they don't, they won't.

[yellowdog]

Woog is an unlistenable idiot, enough said. I would question whether or not he is still a gopher fan or not. I think he is so jelous of Lucia and his hair that he is unable to look past it and be a homer anymore. I am not at all a UND fan, but I never gave woog's comments a second thought. He says so many stupid things that I fail to even listen to him anymore. We would have listened to the radio, but it wasn't on the radio, so we were forced to listen to the little windbag.

[TC_transplant]

The rumor about phantom assists at North Dakota is not just a Gopher issue. Ask around the league and you'll find many schools hold the same perception of the Sue. Right or wrong...it's a common belief.

[PCM]

Right or wrong...it's a common belief.

In the case of Jeff Panzer, it was absolutely wrong. Anyone who took time to research Panzer's assists during the 2000-2001 season would see that there was nothing to the claim.

It all goes back to the old adage that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe that it's true.

So what happens in Grand Forks that doesn't happen in the rest of the league? Are the WCHA officials bribed to give give extra assists Sioux players?

[kr]

The rumor about phantom assists at North Dakota is not just a Gopher issue. Ask around the league and you'll find many schools hold the same perception of the Sue. Right or wrong...it's a common belief.

And that's exactly why Woog's comments are so bad -- it is a misconception which he is broadcasting as fact across the airwaves -- that broadcast is available to anyone who subscribes to the Fox Network Package -- so anyone in the country tuning in on Saturday heard a former college coach say UND lies/cheats/beats children (okay, maybe not that last one) -- there can be the very good argument made that Woog is a homer doing a broadcast for the home crowd, doing exactly what any color announcer would do, and therefore he shouldn't be crucified for his statment(s) HOWEVER this broadcast has the potential to be nationwide ..... oh well, what does it really matter? If someone on the east coast believes that UND inflates assists it isn't as if the world will stop spinning, it'll probably just be used against UND (player-s) being considered for the Hobey, and we know that one of the Eaves brothers is going to win this year ....

[tnt]

Doug Woog has no credibility whatsoever. There were about six situations last week that Woog was adamant about a call or a non-call and made himself look stupid on each situation when the replay was shown.

The 2 goals he questioned UND getting extra assists on were not replayed. Had he gone back and looked at those, he would have seen that the goals were scored correctly. If anything, he should have complained about UND's 4th goal on Friday, which should have gone unassisted.

Mistakes are invariably made at every venue in the WCHA, and Woog is just spreading more of the same old crap like the "25-year-old Canadian" line, that the Minneapolis crowd eats up. Forget the truth, just say what the listening audience wants to hear. Doug Woog has knowledge of the teaching end of college hockey, but he doesn't know the rules. Does anyone remember when Woog made a bet with Mazzocco on what constituted offside and lost the bet?

He was whining about Matt Jones' 1st goal on Saturday because someones skate was on the crease line on the other side of the net. How about how he rips into Blais for rotating goalies, then last weekend says he doesn't know why goalies should be any different from other team members. If they aren't producing someone else should be in. Perhaps because the gopher goalie situation has changed he suddenly has a new outlook on things.

I only wish someone would take him to task on his waffling. Oh well, what would you expect from someone who even last year said if he was coach he would still stick with all Minnesota players. Guess that's why you're in the booth Doug!

[lawkota]

The rumor about phantom assists at North Dakota is not just a Gopher issue. Ask around the league and you'll find many schools hold the same perception of the Sue. Right or wrong...it's a common belief.

Please. Provide a source. You've obviously been asking around.

The "phantom assist" jab is directly at every high scoring playmaker. North Dakota is not alone in this talk, nor is it under a higher level of suspicion. The buzz surrounded Senja last year; it followed Kariya and Hrkac around, as unbelievable as that might seem now; I even remember some talk about the quality of Aaron Broten's assists during his 100 point year. Throughout his early career, there were many commentators who claimed that Edmonton gave Gretzky assists simply because he was in the building. It's jealousy, pure and simple. And the more successful your program is in turning out high scoring players, the more the talk will be directed at you.

As PCM pointed out, the latest attack on UND started with Wong's comments about Panzer in 2001, which is too bad because it placed an asterisk (in other fans' minds) on what was a fabulous senior season, one that should have ended with a Hobey Baker award. I don't know if Wong's comments affected the voting but they were inapproriate all the same.

[PCM]

I didn't intend to turn this into a Woog bashing fest. I generally like the guy and he does make some good observations. He'll poke fun at himself and he's sometimes so goofy when he doesn't mean to be that it's funny. And I have heard him criticize the Gophers.

Yes, he is a homer, but so are a lot of us who cover the Sioux hockey team. I don't hold that against him.

However, I do expect someone in his position to have a better understanding of the rules. If he did, he'd know that his comment about rigged scoring in Grand Forks is way off base. For it to be true, he'd have to accuse the WCHA officials of participating in it, and I doubt that he'd want to do that.

[PCM]

I don't know if Wong's comments affected the voting but they were inapproriate all the same.

I don't know that, either. But perhaps Wong's comment gave some of those in the WCHA casting votes an excuse to vote against Panzer. As I said, the worst part about it was that with a few minutes of research, the statement could easily be disproven.

[DamStrait]

Somebody from the UND athletic department should tell Fox Sports North that unless Woog can substantiate his allegations relating to phantom scoring in the REA, he should be forced to apologize on the air (before and during the Friday Wisco game). If he cannot and he does not, then UND should inform Fox Sports North that Woog will not be allowed in the REA again, for any reason, regardless of whether he is part of their coverage team. They should have taken the same approach will that crap-sack Wong. This rumor has gone on way too long and it needs to be put to a stop now!

[sprig]

Woog made the comment after the Parise goal (2) on Friday night. Since assists were never announced (by Woog and FM) I had no idea why that goal brought about the comment, since an assist by Bochenski, and prior to that pass, the pass from a dman to Bochenski, were obvious (guess it was Greene). It put the Sioux up 2-0 and put Woog in a rather sour mood.

[yellowdog]

What does it matter what anyone thinks of Panzer? He is proving that he is a great player at the next level as well. Who cares if people think the sioux made up a few points along the way.(I'm not saying they did) Sometimes you people get a little overprotective and sensitive of things that are just not worth your time. Look at how people reacted to my first post this year. RELAX especially that site administrator guy. You should be able to allow people to poke fun at the blindly rabid sioux fan every once in awhile. Just be happy Panzer is having a good career and cheer for him and Pohl, I know I am.

[CoteauRinkRat]

Somebody from the UND athletic department should tell Fox Sports North that unless Woog can substantiate his allegations relating to phantom scoring in the REA, he should be forced to apologize on the air (before and during the Friday Wisco game). If he cannot and he does not, then UND should inform Fox Sports North that Woog will not be allowed in the REA again, for any reason, regardless of whether he is part of their coverage team. They should have taken the same approach will that crap-sack Wong. This rumor has gone on way too long and it needs to be put to a stop now!

I agree, we all need to email REA and see if we can get this going.

[kr]

What does it matter what anyone thinks of Panzer?

The bigger picture isn't Panzer, rather it is in regards to recruiting. Generally a recruit picks a school for various reasons: coaching, schooling, tradition and catching the eye(s) of a recruiter for the NHL. How many HB winners does UND have? one, and that was after a spectacular year

Coach X to recruit -- you have great skills we can offer you many things at our school ....... and the icing on the cake is that our athletes have been seriously considered and have on a regular basis received the HB award, we know how to get our players that award ...... (obviously I'm talking about schools like BC & UMN) we have big press connections yada, yada, yada

Does the fact that UND not have a HB winner since 1987 mean that UND doesn't get THE good recruit(s), no, but it is something that with some players, could be the factor that tips the scale. I'm not insinuating that those players are shallow and/or glory hounds, it's just another factor to take into consideration -- BC, UMN, UM, UND each have so much similar to offer regarding college and future NHL opportunities that the HB issue could factor in.