star2city Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 One of the most significant impediments to Div I reclassification is the 13-year ban on men’s basketball postseason play. Last week, the NCAADiv I Management Council agreed to consider reducing the 13 years to 5 years. If this decrease in classfication time occurs, a move to Div I, while still difficult, becomes much less onerous. This story story in the Fargo Forum affirms arguments against reclassfication, if the 13 year rule is in place, by the very people who are arguing for NDSU’s move. “I think it’s critical,” said NDSU coach Tim Miles. It’s critical for recruiting. By being eligible in 08-09, an incoming freshman next season can redshirt, and then be theoretically on a tournament team by their senior year.“It’s significant to us,” said women’s athletic director Lynn Dorn. “It affords us the opportunity to recruit student-athletes with the hopes of having them make an immediate impact.” Strange world we live in. An issue that was previously publicly denied as critical by NDSU officials and fans, is now critical. If this rule is changed, there will be at least three ramifications: new DivI schools may find auto-bid conferences more receptive to invitations, newly formed Division I conferences will receive auto-bids within five years, and the number of schools declaring their intention to move up will increase. Preventing a flood of schools moving to Div I is the reason the 13-year rule was made. Very few schools are foolish enough to make to a move that places their athletic program in purgatory for 13 years. A much larger number of schools will make that commitment if the bar is lowered to 5 years. My bet is the NCAA Board of Governors does not change it, protecting DivI from being watered down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 If the NCAA was worried about too many schools moving to DI, they could reinstate the moratorium again. That's a better way of stopping schools from moving up. The postseason ineligibility is there to make sure schools are committed to the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMav Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 star2city Posted: Oct 29 2003, 10:53 PM .....Very few schools are foolish enough to make to a move that places their athletic program in purgatory for 13 years. .....My bet is the NCAA Board of Governors does not change it, protecting DivI from being watered down. star2city, What you are saying is UND would be foolish to consider moving to Division I. If UND did make the move they would be watering down Division I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Maybe the reason NDSU officials said it wasn't critical was that they were sure that the postseason ban was going to get reduced from 13 years. Sept. 1, 2002, in a Forum article, Coach Miles says there "is no doubt in my mind that it will change." The "it" he's talking about is the probationary period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Glad to see NDSU fans are on here discussing NDSU matters by themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 That's ironic considering that this forum is practically devoted to doom-saying about NDSU's chances in DI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 The problem of "watering down" that prompted NDSU to move from DII to DI is now happening in DI. What was the problem? Schools like MSU-Moorhead, with 10% of the athletic budget of NDSU and UND moving into the division and trying to lower existing division rules. What's happening in DI? Schools with budgets 10% of the athletic budget of 'The' Ohio State University are moving into the division and trying to lower existing division rules. So what would their logical recourse be? Hint: 'Up' for them just might be out of the NCAA. Remember what the Duke Asst. AD said (paraphrased): The NCAA is voluntary. We choose to be members. We choose to pay its fees. (I've provided links to stories in the past.) Which means they could choose a decision to "move up (out)" also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 What you are saying is UND would be foolish to consider moving to Division I. If UND did make the move they would be watering down Division I. A school trying to move up probably doesn't care at all that they're watering down the division, it's not at all foolish for them; the existing members that let their division be watered down are foolish. Whereas some people who complain continuously about the watering down of D-II also like to bet that D-I will continue to open its arms to being watered down by institutions like NDSU, star2city was guessing otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMav Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 the existing members that let their division be watered down are foolish. So, are NDSU and UND etc, foolish for letting Division II be watered down? How could they have prevented the watering down. NDSU is moving to Divison I looking to accept and support the current Division I scholarship level. Northeasternwest Iowa Academy are moving to Division II and supporting a reduced scholarship movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisonfan1234 Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Why do the people at UND want NDSU to fail as miserably as possible at the attempt to move up to D1? Is it for no other reason than they don't like NDSU? I would be happy if UND moved up to D1! It would mean we could play each other again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 So, are NDSU and UND etc, foolish for letting Division II be watered down?It's not certain whether even a maximal effort could have prevented the watering down, but those schools that failed to do everything they could but are now complaining in arrears do indeed seem foolish to me. How could they have prevented the watering down.The million dollar question. D-I seems to be having some success with punitive transition requirements and hard attendance limits; perhaps 30 years ago that would have done something for D-II, but now it's water under the bridge. Whereas dissatisfied D-II members can climb to D-IAA, and have been for 20+ years, the major D-I's have nowhere to climb but out of the NCAA, which is what convinces me that they'll put up a more valiant fight than the major D-II's did. Bison1234- I, too, hope UND reclassifies. There's a big difference between discussing obstacles and hoping for failure. A year ago some Bison fans were chastising Sicatoka and me for discussing the difficulties we thought NDSU would face in finding a D-I conference; the NDSU leaders had assured the faithful that conferences were knocking on NDSU's door, but that they just couldn't be named until the deals were finalized. The highly punitive probationary period is another major stumbling block that NDSU leaders have instructed the faithful to ignore with promises that it would just go away (as cited by Tony). Addressing obstacles and risks leads to better planning and mitigation; unfortunately, NDSU's and SDSU's leaders have been under continuing pressure to sell the reclassifications to the public which I think has led to downplaying those risks and obstacles. Those who dare discuss them are branded as trying to disrupt the reclassification (ridiculously so, since my claiming there are obstacles has no actual effect on whether or not there are). My primary interest in this topic is because I hope UND is able to reclassify, but don't really know all the obstacles/risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Bison1234- I, too, hope UND reclassifies. There's a big difference between discussing obstacles and hoping for failure. ... Addressing obstacles and risks leads to better planning and mitigation; unfortunately, NDSU's and SDSU's leaders have been under continuing pressure to sell the reclassifications to the public which I think has led to downplaying those risks and obstacles. NDSU and SDSU both had private consultants "road map" how to do this for them. They addressed the same things jimdahl and I do when we discuss it here. From NDSU's Carr Report: Consultants recommend that the University begin the transition process, but only after it has achieved the following: - Establish an institutional consensus that the reclassification from NCAA Division II to Division I-AA is consistent with the University Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 The 13 yr ban is definitely ridiculous, there is no doubt about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRH Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I guess what that study didn't tell us was that no DI conference will consider you until you put your money where your mouth is and formally declare. Otherwise they won't take you seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U2Bad1 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 The 13 yr ban is definitely ridiculous, there is no doubt about that. Not like NDSU would ever make it into the tournament anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisonfan1234 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 But UND would? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U2Bad1 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 But UND would? probably not, didnt say they would did i!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMav Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 The problem of "watering down" that prompted NDSU to move from DII to DI is now happening in DI. What was the problem? Schools like MSU-Moorhead, with 10% of the athletic budget of NDSU and UND moving into the division and trying to lower existing division rules. What's happening in DI? Schools with budgets 10% of the athletic budget of 'The' Ohio State University are moving into the division and trying to lower existing division rules. So what would their logical recourse be? Hint: 'Up' for them just might be out of the NCAA. Remember what the Duke Asst. AD said (paraphrased): The NCAA is voluntary. We choose to be members. We choose to pay its fees. (I've provided links to stories in the past.) Which means they could choose a decision to "move up (out)" also. Schools with budgets 10% of the athletic budget of 'The' Ohio State University are able to compete at the Division I level in NCAA defined "Minor Sports", and remain in a different division in other sports. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are one, as to what is considered "Watering Down". Ohio State's sport with the largest budget does not directly compete with most schools that are new to Division I, at least for NC's. Most of the new schools will compete at the I-AA level, if they have football at all. An Ohio State will almost always get the recruit over a Youngstown St, I-AA school etc. In hockey a Divison II school with Division I hockey can out recruit an Ohio State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 But what happens when the "10%-ers" want a larger and larger cut of the big pies (March Madness and the BCS)? What'd NDSU do to DII is a hint of the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 The "10%-ers" already get a cut of the DI pie. Who do you think pays for the postseason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I said "larger and larger." Didn't you read the Congressional Record this week? And if paying for post season matters, only two post seasons are pulling their weight in terms of revenues. Only "March Madness" and the "Frozen Four" show black ink for the NCAA (the last time I checked). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 The Sicatoka, if the BCS leaves the NCAA, it just won't be for football and basketball alone. There wouldn't be any more BCS schools in the NCAA hockey tourney either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisonfan1234 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 If the biggest and best schools leave the NCAA to start a BCS league (or whatever)...will there still be enough D1A schools left in the NCAA to have seperate D1A and D1AA classifications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 tony, aren't Sioux fans always being told "no one cares" about hockey by Bison fans? Well, if the BCS schools bail, their issue will be hoops and football. Does the SEC or Pac-10 care about whether or not the Big 10ers play hockey at all, much less who they'd play? They'll play anyone in the so-called minor sports as long as it makes them a buck. Because, this is what all this (March Madness, the BCS) is about, right? A buck? And the big schools are out to keep the lion's share of the biggest money. (They almost act like college athletics is a business.) Not trying to speak for Goldie, but having observed them, Minnesota hockey will play whomever they need to to keep that "Golden" cash-cow mooing. (Minnesota is "in the black" in three programs: football, mens BB, mens hockey. Without those the accounting knives come out to cut programs.) Will the BCS-schools bolt? Will they ask for an NDSU-like solution (move to a new higher NCAA level)? I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out. bisonfan1234: There are about 70 BCS schools. That'd leave about 170 Division I (A or AA) football playing schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 If the BCS schools leave the NCAA, they can't be any part of an NCAA tourney because NCAA championships are for NCAA schools only. It wouldn't be up to Goldie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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