Alerus Center

[Fetch]

Let both Standing Rock & Spirit Lake turn the Alerus into a Casino - if we can keep the Fighting Sioux Name - move football back to Memorial

I'll never give up

Maybe Tax Oil & Sugar Beets & Farming & Tourism & Non Resident Hunters to support everything

[Big A HG]

I have actually heard rumors around the front offices that the university is going to tear down the Ralph and use the Alerus Center for hockey games as soon as next year

You're cool!

[The Whistler]

seriously Goon? they also added new Daktronics LED billboards

Man, it's not that I didn't point out the billboards a bunch of times. (FYI Venuworks said they'd make $100,000 more the first year in outside revenue and up to $300,000 after that.) They haven't come close and nobody with the city has called them on that.

[Fetch]

Daktronics

isn't that Hostile & Abusive ?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I don't think you can just measure the economic benefit or detraction of the Alerus by looking at their books at the end of the year. How do you figure out all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.. All I see is a bunch of whiny people in GF who have to complain about everything if it doesn't turn a profit or its not black and white how its impact is felt in Grand Forks - like Kenny Powers says, there is no I in team, but there is a U in C#nt and don't be a bunch of whiny c$nts. Take a look at all of the hotels built since the opening of the Alerus- do you think they opened these hotels because the University was growing in GF or that industry had tripled and that many more people had to come to city??? Granted the Engelstad helps considerably, but you have many people coming to town spending money on gas, hotels, food, drink, and shopping. To say this was a mistake would be very short-sighted and really ignorant of the ideas behind the speed of money....

BobIwabuchiFan

[The Whistler]

I don't think you can just measure the economic benefit or detraction of the Alerus by looking at their books at the end of the year. How do you figure out all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.. All I see is a bunch of whiny people in GF who have to complain about everything if it doesn't turn a profit or its not black and white how its impact is felt in Grand Forks - like Kenny Powers says, there is no I in team, but there is a U in C#nt and don't be a bunch of whiny c$nts. Take a look at all of the hotels built since the opening of the Alerus- do you think they opened these hotels because the University was growing in GF or that industry had tripled and that many more people had to come to city??? Granted the Engelstad helps considerably, but you have many people coming to town spending money on gas, hotels, food, drink, and shopping. To say this was a mistake would be very short-sighted and really ignorant of the ideas behind the speed of money....

BobIwabuchiFan

The city attempts to do that BobIwabuchi.

According to City Documents, in the first half of the year the net economic impact of the Alerus was 1.66 million dollars. During that time the Alerus taxes was over twice that at 3.6 million dollars. That's right, the city lost two million dollars.

Of course a few of the businesses that cater to those people may have made money. But it makes no sense for me to have my money taken away, washed through the city, and having a small part of that go to some businesses that I probably wouldn't choose to support. If I did I'd just as soon get the services myself.

In other words it's a big net loser and the people benefiting aren't the ones who are paying. If it was such a sweet deal wouldn't the hotels and restaurants be willing to pay it themselves and leave us skeptics out of it.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

The city attempts to do that BobIwabuchi.

According to City Documents, in the first half of the year the net economic impact of the Alerus was 1.66 million dollars. During that time the Alerus taxes was over twice that at 3.6 million dollars. That's right, the city lost two million dollars.

Of course a few of the businesses that cater to those people may have made money. But it makes no sense for me to have my money taken away, washed through the city, and having a small part of that go to some businesses that I probably wouldn't choose to support. If I did I'd just as soon get the services myself.

In other words it's a big net loser and the people benefiting aren't the ones who are paying. If it was such a sweet deal wouldn't the hotels and restaurants be willing to pay it themselves and leave us skeptics out of it.

Great idea...propose it to the city council and drive a petition to do so...Do you think there isn't hotel and room taxes already being levied by the city for these same things? I have no problem adding more to the sales tax for food and hotels, but make sure this money makes it into a fund allocated for the Alerus and not the pet projects of the ward commissioners. The problem with GF is they really want to be a small city...its evident when you go to the city council meetings and its evident by the people who complain about paying $2 million dollars out of the city fund for an event center that is really for a city the size of Fargo. In the grand scheme of the city budgets, how much sales tax and hotel room revenue is being collected because of the Alerus? Do you think any reasonable amount of that is being offered back to the Alerus to help grow or maintain the facility? Also, how much capital investment has been made in the city since the Alerus has been built - do you think this is why we have a high density shopping area within two blocks of the Alerus and we can't even get the city to repair a public pool on the north side without a long, drawn-out arguement from the city council? Where is the perspective?

[The Whistler]

do you think this is why we have a high density shopping area within two blocks of the Alerus

What in the world are you talking about?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

What in the world are you talking about?

Where has all of the major construction been the last two years relative to the Alerus location? Where do you go to shop in GF - is it the Plaza Mall or downtown? Have you been in GF long? Drive two blocks down the street from Alerus and you can see a high density shopping area and just across the street properties are starting construction on new office structures as well as new apartements. How about the new hotels at the end of the road by Alerus? Why did it go there to begin with? Why didn't they just build it close to the Ralph next to Simplot? I think you know what the answer is...but the truth is hard to reconcile about whining about the Alerus costss.....

[Local Boy]

Bob,

What on earth are you talking about? You referred to "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.." This is totally false.

The Alerus Center has three primary missions...arena events, multi-day regional convention/conference business, and Sioux football.

The arena side is a total failure. In fact, the property currently has one date on the calendar. Yes, ONE. Also, before the center can book a major concert event, they have to go before the city council for approval. The Alerus loses from $100,000 to $300,000 PER SHOW when the highest grossing tours in America come to town. Also, it was disclosed last year that city council and Alerus commission members were aware of "secret subsidies" in the amount of abut $850,000 that were transferred to the property. Commission members, council members, and The Herald knew about these transfers but attempted to conceal the facts from the public. In fact, they even teased "profits" before the secret subsidies were disclosed.

The convention side of the property is also a failure. Multi-day regional conventions have NEVER panned out, not in the nearly 10 year history of the complex. In fact, the convention side's gross sales are only about $1,000,000 per year. This is pathetic for a property such as The Alerus. Also, the bulk of these sales are simply dollars that were redirected from private properties to the publicly-owned Alerus.

Sioux football is what it is. I have one question, why did UND sign a 10 year agreement with The Alerus? Sioux football is the only positive feature of The Alerus. Football is in the driver's seat; why a ten year agreement?

So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain?

The Herald throws new narratives against the wall in hopes of something sticking. It's not working. Their current narrative is "They book the wrong acts". Oh, really? Again, the TOP GROSSING tours in America lose 100K-300K PER SHOW. The Herald also likes to write articles solely based on the property's financials. If the property hosted ZERO events in a year, and recognized the tax funds they receive as revenues, The Herald would publish a story about their financial success. What a minute! Isn't the primary goal of the development supposed to be bringing NEW dollars to town. Watch for the coming positive story about the Alerus' financial success in the future. It will happen.

In my opinion, a big untold story is the revenue recognized from suite holders. Why on earth are these entities paying for the suites when there are so few events, 1-3 per year? My guess would be that these entities are sympathetic to Alerus Financial in some way and holding onto their suites in an attempt to paint the property in a more positive light.

The Alerus story is simply a story of failed speculation. The sad story is the lengths that VenuWorks, The Alerus Commission, and The City Council have gone to to lie, cheat, and deceive taxpayers for the mismanagement and failure of the property.

[The Whistler]

Where has all of the major construction been the last two years relative to the Alerus location? Where do you go to shop in GF - is it the Plaza Mall or downtown? Have you been in GF long? Drive two blocks down the street from Alerus and you can see a high density shopping area and just across the street properties are starting construction on new office structures as well as new apartements. How about the new hotels at the end of the road by Alerus? Why did it go there to begin with? Why didn't they just build it close to the Ralph next to Simplot? I think you know what the answer is...but the truth is hard to reconcile about whining about the Alerus costss.....

Two blocks from the Alerus? I didn't find any high density shopping. The closest shopping of any consequence is the Menards area, that was developed in 1985. I hope you're not talking about the area South of there (Target is about 1.6 miles away). That was put there as part of the overall building trend that started in 1977 when the Columbia Mall started going up. (I'm close on the 77, but I could be off by a year.)

Across the property is an office building that has no connection at all with events at the Alerus. However I think you can credit the Alerus with them putting it there. The city council wrote of their taxes for years AND funneled a bunch of low interest money. I think their motivation was to try to trick gullible people into thinking that the Alerus wasn't such a total failure.

The hotel next to the Alerus was given a massive amount of money (I've heard the package was up to 7 million dollars, but haven't been able to confirm that) to build next to the Alerus. The mayor of GF said that CanadInn was going to save the Alerus on the Huseby radio show.

The hotel across the street is also being given government charity to develop there.

I did quite a bit of research on the subsidies of the Alerus businesses. I wrote about it here: http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/alerus-area-development-is-all-subsidized-to-make-the-alerus-look-less-bad

There are hotels down by the Amundson Funeral home that you seem to think that the Alerus brought in. Why is it that they build as far away from the Alerus they could on that road and as close to the shopping as they could. It's because they built for the shopping and not for the Alerus. As Local Boy already pointed out there just aren't events at the Alerus to get hotels built. (The Canadinn probably does well enough.)

Finally I think that I know what apartment building you're referring to. The one that's going up next to the apartments that have been there for years before the Alerus was built. I can't imagine why you'd think that the Alerus would bring in an apartment building anyway.

[Matt]

Bob,

What on earth are you talking about? You referred to "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.." This is totally false.

The Alerus Center has three primary missions...arena events, multi-day regional convention/conference business, and Sioux football.

The arena side is a total failure. In fact, the property currently has one date on the calendar. Yes, ONE. Also, before the center can book a major concert event, they have to go before the city council for approval. The Alerus loses from $100,000 to $300,000 PER SHOW when the highest grossing tours in America come to town. Also, it was disclosed last year that city council and Alerus commission members were aware of "secret subsidies" in the amount of abut $850,000 that were transferred to the property. Commission members, council members, and The Herald knew about these transfers but attempted to conceal the facts from the public. In fact, they even teased "profits" before the secret subsidies were disclosed.

The convention side of the property is also a failure. Multi-day regional conventions have NEVER panned out, not in the nearly 10 year history of the complex. In fact, the convention side's gross sales are only about $1,000,000 per year. This is pathetic for a property such as The Alerus. Also, the bulk of these sales are simply dollars that were redirected from private properties to the publicly-owned Alerus.

Sioux football is what it is. I have one question, why did UND sign a 10 year agreement with The Alerus? Sioux football is the only positive feature of The Alerus. Football is in the driver's seat; why a ten year agreement?

So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain?

The Herald throws new narratives against the wall in hopes of something sticking. It's not working. Their current narrative is "They book the wrong acts". Oh, really? Again, the TOP GROSSING tours in America lose 100K-300K PER SHOW. The Herald also likes to write articles solely based on the property's financials. If the property hosted ZERO events in a year, and recognized the tax funds they receive as revenues, The Herald would publish a story about their financial success. What a minute! Isn't the primary goal of the development supposed to be bringing NEW dollars to town. Watch for the coming positive story about the Alerus' financial success in the future. It will happen.

In my opinion, a big untold story is the revenue recognized from suite holders. Why on earth are these entities paying for the suites when there are so few events, 1-3 per year? My guess would be that these entities are sympathetic to Alerus Financial in some way and holding onto their suites in an attempt to paint the property in a more positive light.

The Alerus story is simply a story of failed speculation. The sad story is the lengths that VenuWorks, The Alerus Commission, and The City Council have gone to to lie, cheat, and deceive taxpayers for the mismanagement and failure of the property.

Solid analysis.

[Cratter]

There is only one thing left to do since it doesn't turn a profit. Tear it down!

Tear down the library too! That thing is a total drain. It losses over 100,000 dollars a year! And for what? People to read books? Talk about a joke and now they want to spend millions more a new one? All because the current ones "old and small"?

What's next they will want to build a new Alerus?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Two blocks from the Alerus? I didn't find any high density shopping. The closest shopping of any consequence is the Menards area, that was developed in 1985. I hope you're not talking about the area South of there (Target is about 1.6 miles away). That was put there as part of the overall building trend that started in 1977 when the Columbia Mall started going up. (I'm close on the 77, but I could be off by a year.)

Across the property is an office building that has no connection at all with events at the Alerus. However I think you can credit the Alerus with them putting it there. The city council wrote of their taxes for years AND funneled a bunch of low interest money. I think their motivation was to try to trick gullible people into thinking that the Alerus wasn't such a total failure.

The hotel next to the Alerus was given a massive amount of money (I've heard the package was up to 7 million dollars, but haven't been able to confirm that) to build next to the Alerus. The mayor of GF said that CanadInn was going to save the Alerus on the Huseby radio show.

The hotel across the street is also being given government charity to develop there.

I did quite a bit of research on the subsidies of the Alerus businesses. I wrote about it here: http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/alerus-area-development-is-all-subsidized-to-make-the-alerus-look-less-bad

There are hotels down by the Amundson Funeral home that you seem to think that the Alerus brought in. Why is it that they build as far away from the Alerus they could on that road and as close to the shopping as they could. It's because they built for the shopping and not for the Alerus. As Local Boy already pointed out there just aren't events at the Alerus to get hotels built. (The Canadinn probably does well enough.)

Finally I think that I know what apartment building you're referring to. The one that's going up next to the apartments that have been there for years before the Alerus was built. I can't imagine why you'd think that the Alerus would bring in an apartment building anyway.

Do you even pretend to know what a high density shopping center is? By the way, Its the only one in the freakin city? Have you every lived outside of Grand Forks in your life? To qoute that the expansion on the south side of 32nd Ave was planned for in 1977 is utterly ridiculous. The majority if not all of the expansion around the columbia mall was post flood, not 1977...Even today the mall sits mostly empty because its anchor stores have left and crossed over to the other side of 32nd street. Take the expansion of these stores south of 32nd in combination with the multitudes of Hotels sprouting up in that area or near the Menards side its undeniable this is a high density shopping area.

I can agree that the Alerus may not have been the primary reason for this expansion beyond what would be expected, but I believe its a primary driver for the Canad Inn location next to property and also the rapid expansion of the hotel capacity in the city as relative to the high density shopping center. Have you seen what's happened to the North side of town lately - its a virtual graveyard for shopping and the hotel choices are more for truckers and transients.

Lastly, can you point out any building or business project from any city in North Dakota that doesn't require incentives? I know for a fact that many of the incentives currently provided by the city and the state are very small when compared to what other states and cities offer for businesses to relocate or create jobs in their community. Again, I believe that everyone on the city council and people like yourself or local boy want the city to remain small. I can gaurantee if we hadn't built the Alerus and didn't fight to bring in Canad or other entities we would continue to be a small town when compared to Bismark and Fargo.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Bob,

What on earth are you talking about? You referred to "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.." This is totally false.

The Alerus Center has three primary missions...arena events, multi-day regional convention/conference business, and Sioux football.

The arena side is a total failure. In fact, the property currently has one date on the calendar. Yes, ONE. Also, before the center can book a major concert event, they have to go before the city council for approval. The Alerus loses from $100,000 to $300,000 PER SHOW when the highest grossing tours in America come to town. Also, it was disclosed last year that city council and Alerus commission members were aware of "secret subsidies" in the amount of abut $850,000 that were transferred to the property. Commission members, council members, and The Herald knew about these transfers but attempted to conceal the facts from the public. In fact, they even teased "profits" before the secret subsidies were disclosed.

The convention side of the property is also a failure. Multi-day regional conventions have NEVER panned out, not in the nearly 10 year history of the complex. In fact, the convention side's gross sales are only about $1,000,000 per year. This is pathetic for a property such as The Alerus. Also, the bulk of these sales are simply dollars that were redirected from private properties to the publicly-owned Alerus.

Sioux football is what it is. I have one question, why did UND sign a 10 year agreement with The Alerus? Sioux football is the only positive feature of The Alerus. Football is in the driver's seat; why a ten year agreement?

So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain?

The Herald throws new narratives against the wall in hopes of something sticking. It's not working. Their current narrative is "They book the wrong acts". Oh, really? Again, the TOP GROSSING tours in America lose 100K-300K PER SHOW. The Herald also likes to write articles solely based on the property's financials. If the property hosted ZERO events in a year, and recognized the tax funds they receive as revenues, The Herald would publish a story about their financial success. What a minute! Isn't the primary goal of the development supposed to be bringing NEW dollars to town. Watch for the coming positive story about the Alerus' financial success in the future. It will happen.

In my opinion, a big untold story is the revenue recognized from suite holders. Why on earth are these entities paying for the suites when there are so few events, 1-3 per year? My guess would be that these entities are sympathetic to Alerus Financial in some way and holding onto their suites in an attempt to paint the property in a more positive light.

The Alerus story is simply a story of failed speculation. The sad story is the lengths that VenuWorks, The Alerus Commission, and The City Council have gone to to lie, cheat, and deceive taxpayers for the mismanagement and failure of the property.

Matt,

Lets take them in order...

Arena events are a disaster at the Alerus. So whats the root cause of this abject failure in your mind? I think you gave a pretty good root cause with the fact that the city council wants to run a business - how does government do when trying to run a business? How about a city council that has silos called wards that protect their own interests as opposed to overall benefits of the city itself? Is it because we can't pull in the big acts because the city is too small or the venue stinks? If that was so, then how does the Ralph pull in great shows with 5-8k less seats - do you think its because they get to make their own decisions and set their own goals as opposed to letting the city councill direct their every move or expenditure from a political perspective? I'm very interested in what your solid analysis shows here for the real root causes of the failure you report.

Convention business is a disaster. Again, whats the root cause? You can continue to tell everyone they don't have enough, but why is that so? What level of convention business should a building this size and a demographic like ND have? What part does the city council play in this area of the business as well? What kind of money is allocated to advertising for this portion of the facilities function or is this something the city can't afford at this time?

Sioux football - The university most likely signed the agreement because they know for the next 10 years that they are not going to be able to collect enough donations to build a seperate facility the size of the Alerus and most likely do not have any property left on which to build on that hasn't already been spoken for (EERC expansion needs, student housing needs, etc.). The real problem with the Alerus not producing more revenue from these events is simply because the university doesn't hhave a decent conference nor any real football rivals people are willing to go and pay for tickets. Basically, the University's product stinks and their competition does as well. Only way the Alerus goes higher with this agreement is once they get a real conference.

Directly quoting you, "So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain? - Contrary to your belief that nothing is going on with the Alerus, people actually travel to these games/events from outside the city and the state and they stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, and actually shop at the few small chain stores scattered all around town because we don't happen to have any high density shopping centers/areas . To pretend that this doesn't generate money for businesses and ultimately generate sales tax for collection by the city is just plan ignorant and oblivious to the facts. I can tell the Alerus bothers you regardless if it was making any profit, but if we had the capability to seperate out the actual tax collections associated directly with the Alerus and its functions, you would quickly realize that the city and the city council is asking a very large building to operate on a ridiculously low budget and thus they have set the table to low expectatons and low probability of profitability.

[The Whistler]

Do you even pretend to know what a high density shopping center is? By the way, Its the only one in the freakin city? Have you every lived outside of Grand Forks in your life? To qoute that the expansion on the south side of 32nd Ave was planned for in 1977 is utterly ridiculous. The majority if not all of the expansion around the columbia mall was post flood, not 1977...Even today the mall sits mostly empty because its anchor stores have left and crossed over to the other side of 32nd street. Take the expansion of these stores south of 32nd in combination with the multitudes of Hotels sprouting up in that area or near the Menards side its undeniable this is a high density shopping area.

So it is the Target area that you're talking about. Didn't you say that was two blocks away from the Alerus. LMAO. That's 1.5 miles away from Alerus. No wonder why nobody could figure what you're talking about. The area that's half a mile from Walmart but 1.5 times miles from the Alerus. They built there because that's the shopping area. Meanwhile the hotels are built near the shopping and not near the Alerus, which if it were the draw you say it is they'd be building there.

The Ralph draws far more people than the Alerus. If you were to look into it the entire town fills up for hotel space, quicker than the Britney Concert for example. By your reasoning all kinds of hotels would open up near there, but even though it's far better than the Alerus's events there aren't enough of them to fill a hotel. That's why they locate near the shopping where people go week after week. A few events at the Alerus a year (aside from weddings which seem to benefit CanadInn and CanadInn alone) isn't enough to build an unsubsidized hotel.

When Columbia Mall moved out there it was all but inevitable that the shopping district was going to expand there. That's rather than the Alerus site, which was another option at the time, or further south of Grand Forks, which is becoming a smaller shopping district.

I can agree that the Alerus may not have been the primary reason for this expansion beyond what would be expected, but I believe its a primary driver for the Canad Inn location next to property and also the rapid expansion of the hotel capacity in the city as relative to the high density shopping center. Have you seen what's happened to the North side of town lately - its a virtual graveyard for shopping and the hotel choices are more for truckers and transients.

Canad Inn went in because of a seven million dollar incentive package that the taxpayers have to cover. I'm sorry if I'm not impressed. Nor am I impressed that they're bribing another motel to move in across the street. If the Alerus were successful they wouldn't have to give away the farm to get someone to build next to them. And as I said before, it was obvious back in the mid 70's where the town was going to grow.

Lastly, can you point out any building or business project from any city in North Dakota that doesn't require incentives? I know for a fact that many of the incentives currently provided by the city and the state are very small when compared to what other states and cities offer for businesses to relocate or create jobs in their community. Again, I believe that everyone on the city council and people like yourself or local boy want the city to remain small. I can gaurantee if we hadn't built the Alerus and didn't fight to bring in Canad or other entities we would continue to be a small town when compared to Bismark and Fargo.

I fail to see how investing in a losing operation like the Alerus, taking money out of our economy and getting a pittance back is somehow helping us grow into a big city.

And finally even if there was a net benefit to having the Alerus I fail to see why I should be forced to pay for an attraction for the hotels and restaurants. I don't own a hotel. I wish them well, but I don't think I should subsidize them in any way. I'll tell you one thing, during the event center debates they sure as heck didn't think that there should be an extra tax to pay for an event center. I found that very telling that the businesses that were going to benefit the most didn't think it was worth their money.

[The Whistler]

Matt,

Lets take them in order...

Arena events are a disaster at the Alerus. So whats the root cause of this abject failure in your mind? I think you gave a pretty good root cause with the fact that the city council wants to run a business - how does government do when trying to run a business? How about a city council that has silos called wards that protect their own interests as opposed to overall benefits of the city itself? Is it because we can't pull in the big acts because the city is too small or the venue stinks? If that was so, then how does the Ralph pull in great shows with 5-8k less seats - do you think its because they get to make their own decisions and set their own goals as opposed to letting the city councill direct their every move or expenditure from a political perspective? I'm very interested in what your solid analysis shows here for the real root causes of the failure you report.

Convention business is a disaster. Again, whats the root cause? You can continue to tell everyone they don't have enough, but why is that so? What level of convention business should a building this size and a demographic like ND have? What part does the city council play in this area of the business as well? What kind of money is allocated to advertising for this portion of the facilities function or is this something the city can't afford at this time?

Sioux football - The university most likely signed the agreement because they know for the next 10 years that they are not going to be able to collect enough donations to build a seperate facility the size of the Alerus and most likely do not have any property left on which to build on that hasn't already been spoken for (EERC expansion needs, student housing needs, etc.). The real problem with the Alerus not producing more revenue from these events is simply because the university doesn't hhave a decent conference nor any real football rivals people are willing to go and pay for tickets. Basically, the University's product stinks and their competition does as well. Only way the Alerus goes higher with this agreement is once they get a real conference.

Directly quoting you, "So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain? - Contrary to your belief that nothing is going on with the Alerus, people actually travel to these games/events from outside the city and the state and they stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, and actually shop at the few small chain stores scattered all around town because we don't happen to have any high density shopping centers/areas . To pretend that this doesn't generate money for businesses and ultimately generate sales tax for collection by the city is just plan ignorant and oblivious to the facts. I can tell the Alerus bothers you regardless if it was making any profit, but if we had the capability to seperate out the actual tax collections associated directly with the Alerus and its functions, you would quickly realize that the city and the city council is asking a very large building to operate on a ridiculously low budget and thus they have set the table to low expectatons and low probability of profitability.

It's funny that the business model of the Alerus has devolved into football games and weddings. If I'm not mistaken we had UND football games for decades and decades before the Alerus and the Alerus is only stealing the wedding business from local tax paying businesses.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

It's funny that the business model of the Alerus has devolved into football games and weddings. If I'm not mistaken we had UND football games for decades and decades before the Alerus and the Alerus is only stealing the wedding business from local tax paying businesses.

Maybe you should have negotiated with the city to keep the civic center it already had and saved all of the Federal money spent on the Alerus with the city's contribution. True, we did have UND football prior to the Alerus, but I'm having trouble remembering why we didn't have massive hotel building and development south of 32nd when all the football games were at the ol' Memorial and all the weddings were at the all new Westward Ho and the Fabulous Ramada Inn - Oh yah, I forgot that architectual gem, the Townhouse as well with its own 9 hole putting green on the main floor. I suppose they all knew this was going to happen in 1978 anyways and there was no need to deny the destiny.

Again, you want to have your cake and eat it to...Just doesn't work out that way unless another billionaire builds a world class building/event center for GF and then you don't have to contribute the $75 a year you provide with your property taxes to keep that big financial black hole like the Alerus open. As for the 1.5 miles, I'll have to check google earth like you, but given the greater metropolis area of GF I'm sure you could get confused about where high density shopping centers could be - I suppose its just like the time you use to live in the Chicago suburbs or even in Minneapolis and not understanding general directions. Apologies for the error in distance....

[Goon]

Heck with all of that Obama stimulus money floating around maybe Grand Forks should have applied for some to fund the Alerus.

[The Whistler]

Maybe you should have negotiated with the city to keep the civic center it already had and saved all of the Federal money spent on the Alerus with the city's contribution. True, we did have UND football prior to the Alerus, but I'm having trouble remembering why we didn't have massive hotel building and development south of 32nd when all the football games were at the ol' Memorial and all the weddings were at the all new Westward Ho and the Fabulous Ramada Inn - Oh yah, I forgot that architectual gem, the Townhouse as well with its own 9 hole putting green on the main floor. I suppose they all knew this was going to happen in 1978 anyways and there was no need to deny the destiny.

Again, you want to have your cake and eat it to...Just doesn't work out that way unless another billionaire builds a world class building/event center for GF and then you don't have to contribute the $75 a year you provide with your property taxes to keep that big financial black hole like the Alerus open. As for the 1.5 miles, I'll have to check google earth like you, but given the greater metropolis area of GF I'm sure you could get confused about where high density shopping centers could be - I suppose its just like the time you use to live in the Chicago suburbs or even in Minneapolis and not understanding general directions. Apologies for the error in distance....

Actually I did check Google Earth. You said 2 blocks (repeatedly) and then act like I've never been to Grand Forks because there is no high density traffic two blocks away from the Alerus. When I asked what you were talking about rather than correct your error you compounded it.

Of course you're confused on what caused the new retail to move in as much as your difference. Target built out there, because they were building super centers. Lowes and Best Buy were building new stores. That's why we got that new shopping area across from Menards and in the area West of the existing shopping (west of the Super 1 shopping are). That was a natural progression of the shopping in the city.

It's interesting that you bring up the hotels that formally hosted a lot of weddings. It's true they were getting faded and it was probably time for a new hotel to be put up. Unfortunately with the city's interference in the market that won't happen. Pity because the new hotel would have been expected to pay it's way and even contribute to the city's tax base.

[Matt]

Matt,

Lets take them in order...

Arena events are a disaster at the Alerus. So whats the root cause of this abject failure in your mind? I think you gave a pretty good root cause with the fact that the city council wants to run a business - how does government do when trying to run a business? How about a city council that has silos called wards that protect their own interests as opposed to overall benefits of the city itself? Is it because we can't pull in the big acts because the city is too small or the venue stinks? If that was so, then how does the Ralph pull in great shows with 5-8k less seats - do you think its because they get to make their own decisions and set their own goals as opposed to letting the city councill direct their every move or expenditure from a political perspective? I'm very interested in what your solid analysis shows here for the real root causes of the failure you report.

Convention business is a disaster. Again, whats the root cause? You can continue to tell everyone they don't have enough, but why is that so? What level of convention business should a building this size and a demographic like ND have? What part does the city council play in this area of the business as well? What kind of money is allocated to advertising for this portion of the facilities function or is this something the city can't afford at this time?

Sioux football - The university most likely signed the agreement because they know for the next 10 years that they are not going to be able to collect enough donations to build a seperate facility the size of the Alerus and most likely do not have any property left on which to build on that hasn't already been spoken for (EERC expansion needs, student housing needs, etc.). The real problem with the Alerus not producing more revenue from these events is simply because the university doesn't hhave a decent conference nor any real football rivals people are willing to go and pay for tickets. Basically, the University's product stinks and their competition does as well. Only way the Alerus goes higher with this agreement is once they get a real conference.

Directly quoting you, "So, no shows, no events, no banquets, no conventions. What is "all of the extra money coming into town due to the shows, conventions, games, etc.."? Can you explain? - Contrary to your belief that nothing is going on with the Alerus, people actually travel to these games/events from outside the city and the state and they stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, and actually shop at the few small chain stores scattered all around town because we don't happen to have any high density shopping centers/areas . To pretend that this doesn't generate money for businesses and ultimately generate sales tax for collection by the city is just plan ignorant and oblivious to the facts. I can tell the Alerus bothers you regardless if it was making any profit, but if we had the capability to seperate out the actual tax collections associated directly with the Alerus and its functions, you would quickly realize that the city and the city council is asking a very large building to operate on a ridiculously low budget and thus they have set the table to low expectatons and low probability of profitability.

Quoting me? My quote was "solid analysis", local boy did the analysis.

You are asking a lot of good questions as to the "why" behind the "what" that local boy outlined, though. It doesn't change what's going on with the Alerus now, but maybe if those "why's" can get addressed, the Alerus can perform better. No you can't tear the place down, but accountability must come from those in control so the same mistakes don't continue. I think we can all understand some people's frustration. Look at the Fargodome. Despite a reasonable amount of success many people are still miffed at the way the tax issue was sold to voters. Often tax issues come up with a lot of grand claims to get support from a broader base of groups in order to get a project passed (hockey in the Fargodome), and people get irritated when those claims don't come to fruition-for the very reason we all know-once it's built it doesn't matter, you can't tear it down.

[The Whistler]

Quoting me? My quote was "solid analysis", local boy did the analysis.

You are asking a lot of good questions as to the "why" behind the "what" that local boy outlined, though. It doesn't change what's going on with the Alerus now, but maybe if those "why's" can get addressed, the Alerus can perform better. No you can't tear the place down, but accountability must come from those in control so the same mistakes don't continue. I think we can all understand some people's frustration. Look at the Fargodome. Despite a reasonable amount of success many people are still miffed at the way the tax issue was sold to voters. Often tax issues come up with a lot of grand claims to get support from a broader base of groups in order to get a project passed (hockey in the Fargodome), and people get irritated when those claims don't come to fruition-for the very reason we all know-once it's built it doesn't matter, you can't tear it down.

Good point matt. It's the lies that got me going on the Alerus issue. I can't imagine how successful the center would have to be in order to make it worth the lies.

I think what we need to do is lease the facility out to someone who knows how to run an event center. Venuworks and the Alerus Commission have proven to be entirely incompetent.

[Fetch]

It could be that other than Sioux Hockey GF sucks (& with games on TV it makes it harder to drive that far) - it's never been a destination city, or even the regional center for shopping (I bet as many or more from Winnipeg by pass GF for Fargo), or for smaller towns people just wanting to go rent a motel for a winter weekend of fun, like Minot or Bismarck gets. I grew up in NW ND & over 35 yrs it has amazed me how few people from out that way even travel thru GF

- sameol folks with the sameol attitudes (especially those born there) about wanting to control things & at the same time wanting to grow & be bigger - I lived there for over 35 yrs & now that I have been to Fargo Minot & Bismarck & Devils Lake more, I have less desire to go back there, other than hockey - GF is what it is ......sorry

& I bet with oil & energy Bismarck (already is) & now Minot & Williston & Dickinson will keep growing - so will Fargo - GF... can't imagine why it would grow ?

I hate to be so brutally honest but GF is not "North Dakota Nice" - (neither is Fargo) but they are just going to get bigger like Sioux Falls is in SD - 20 30 40 50 yrs ago a lot of small town / rural folks came to GF for work, in the last 10 to 15 yrs not so much - In fact Jobs in GF have been terrible in recent yrs

- I have visited with lots of folks, in the last year who went to school at UND, but other than that, they have very few fond memories of GF - I'm fast becoming one of those

I voted for the Alerus & at the time said many times GF needs as many things as possible to make it a more interesting fun place to live - I know most Senior Citizens did not want it - looking back I did not hardly ever go to things there.......... & I agree with Whistler 100%

[moser53]

Take this thread to Bisonville. Where you can continue the Grand Forks lovefest . Sioux Fans?

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Good point matt. It's the lies that got me going on the Alerus issue. I can't imagine how successful the center would have to be in order to make it worth the lies.

I think what we need to do is lease the facility out to someone who knows how to run an event center. Venuworks and the Alerus Commission have proven to be entirely incompetent.

I don't disagree with this approach, but you still have the local government making business decisions based on their ward needs as opposed to the overall city's needs. Does anyone feel the Ralph would be in any better situation if they were dependent upon the city to fund their needs for marketing and maintenance for an awesome structure?