WYOBISONMAN Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 After watching one hell of a game by Butler yesterday, wouldn't it be great if the North Dakota schools ever got into the Horizon League. But, then I thought......maybe it is better to be in the Summit League because a school would have to put together one hell of a BB program to even compete. The same goes for the MVC for sports other than football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 After watching one hell of a game by Butler yesterday, wouldn't it be great if the North Dakota schools ever got into the Horizon League. But, then I thought......maybe it is better to be in the Summit League because a school would have to put together one hell of a BB program to even compete. The same goes for the MVC for sports other than football. For those of us who are bball fans before football fans the Horizon or MVC would be way better leagues to be in than the Summitt. The Summitt isn't anything special for athletics. Its a bunch of DI wannabe's that need to limit costs/overhead so they can say they're DI. One team a year will get to the dance. The same might be true for the Horizon and MVC but the level of competitiion on a weekly basis is even close to comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WYOBISONMAN Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share Posted March 28, 2010 For those of us who are bball fans before football fans the Horizon or MVC would be way better leagues to be in than the Summitt. The Summitt isn't anything special for athletics. Its a bunch of DI wannabe's that need to limit costs/overhead so they can say they're DI. One team a year will get to the dance. The same might be true for the Horizon and MVC but the level of competitiion on a weekly basis is even close to comparable. My only caveat on that is can the schools in ND actually sustain a quality program that could compete in those leagues and what would it cost to do so. I saw somewhere that the UNI Head Coach just got a contract extension where the salary alone is starting at $450,000 next year. I don't know about you guys, but we are a long, long way from that mark. I don't know the answer, but, I wonder if it could really hurt athletics if we were in a league where we were consitantly in the bottom half. And, again, can we compete. I sit here in WYO and watch how tough life is for UW in the Mountain West. I would hate to see NDSU wind up in the same position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hansel Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 The Summitt isn't anything special for athletics. Its a bunch of DI wannabe's that need to limit costs/overhead so they can say they're DI. and the Great West is the Summit's afterbirth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringDeanBack Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 My only caveat on that is can the schools in ND actually sustain a quality program that could compete in those leagues and what would it cost to do so. I saw somewhere that the UNI Head Coach just got a contract extension where the salary alone is starting at $450,000 next year. I don't know about you guys, but we are a long, long way from that mark. I don't know the answer, but, I wonder if it could really hurt athletics if we were in a league where we were consitantly in the bottom half. And, again, can we compete. I sit here in WYO and watch how tough life is for UW in the Mountain West. I would hate to see NDSU wind up in the same position. Sustain a quality program? Heck, how about just having a few good years. NDSU had a nice little run but that is gone. UND has......does UND even still have a men's team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 After watching one hell of a game by Butler yesterday, wouldn't it be great if the North Dakota schools ever got into the Horizon League. But, then I thought......maybe it is better to be in the Summit League because a school would have to put together one hell of a BB program to even compete. The same goes for the MVC for sports other than football. Why can't the Dakota 4 help make the Summit into our own version of the Horizon, rivaling them in quality? I think given time and with the resources we have being the flagship public, research universities of 2 states, one of us can build our programs to the level of Butler in MBB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herd Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Top to Bottom, the Horizon is easily better than the Summit, but the bison have not had any trouble competing with teams from the Horizon like GB & Mil. Other than Butler, the Horizon isn't that special. Yes, the Horizon is a better League than the Summit, but the top half of the Summit would do just fine in the Horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmksioux Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Why can't the Dakota 4 help make the Summit into our own version of the Horizon, rivaling them in quality? I think given time and with the resources we have being the flagship public, research universities of 2 states, one of us can build our programs to the level of Butler in MBB. This is something I actually agree with you on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Why can't the Dakota 4 help make the Summit into our own version of the Horizon, rivaling them in quality? I think given time and with the resources we have being the flagship public, research universities of 2 states, one of us can build our programs to the level of Butler in MBB. You all realize that even with Ben's new contract at UNI, he's still only the 3rd highest paid coach in the MVC!! The guy at Creighton and the guy at Southern Illinois both make more than Ben's $450,000. We don't have and probably never will have the resources being kicked around for bball in the MVC, or the Horizon for that matter. Recruiting to Vermillion, Brookings, Fargo, and GF is not going to be easy and with all the DI schools that exist in the midwest, we aren't going to win many battles with the teams from either the Horizon or the MVC. I know SU likes being in the conference they're in for football but, truth be told, those schools are bball schools more than football schools. Being DI, we are going to have to choose which program we give our resources to. I don't think its going to be bball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WYOBISONMAN Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 You all realize that even with Ben's new contract at UNI, he's still only the 3rd highest paid coach in the MVC!! The guy at Creighton and the guy at Southern Illinois both make more than Ben's $450,000. We don't have and probably never will have the resources being kicked around for bball in the MVC, or the Horizon for that matter. Recruiting to Vermillion, Brookings, Fargo, and GF is not going to be easy and with all the DI schools that exist in the midwest, we aren't going to win many battles with the teams from either the Horizon or the MVC. I know SU likes being in the conference they're in for football but, truth be told, those schools are bball schools more than football schools. Being DI, we are going to have to choose which program we give our resources to. I don't think its going to be bball. Wow......I did not realize that only put him as the 3rd highest in the conference. That is significant cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 How much does Butler's head MBB coach make? How long will it take NDSU and UND to get up to $250k for MBB head coach's salary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roper1313 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 You all realize that even with Ben's new contract at UNI, he's still only the 3rd highest paid coach in the MVC!! The guy at Creighton and the guy at Southern Illinois both make more than Ben's $450,000. We don't have and probably never will have the resources being kicked around for bball in the MVC, or the Horizon for that matter. Recruiting to Vermillion, Brookings, Fargo, and GF is not going to be easy and with all the DI schools that exist in the midwest, we aren't going to win many battles with the teams from either the Horizon or the MVC. I know SU likes being in the conference they're in for football but, truth be told, those schools are bball schools more than football schools. Being DI, we are going to have to choose which program we give our resources to. I don't think its going to be bball. The SIU coach makes around $700K and Dana Altman at Creighton (he's been there for 15+ years) is making a little over $1M!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 The SIU coach makes around $700K and Dana Altman at Creighton (he's been there for 15+ years) is making a little over $1M!! SIU must have some alums with very deep pockets to be able to operate their football program at a significant loss every year, AND to pay their basketball coach $700k! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ole in MSP Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 SIU must have some alums with very deep pockets to be able to operate their football program at a significant loss every year, AND to pay their basketball coach $700k! Assuming you could put 8-10K butts in the seats at REA on a regular basis for a decent MBB team you could pay a coach pretty well. The problem in GF is how much of the entertainment dollar per family can they devote to a winning hockey program, FB program, and a MBB program. Their just is not enough local population to financially support several major sports and the costs associated with them. I think that is the major reason that Kup was not a big proponent of going D1. One sport for sure, two maybe, but tickets to every major event at the D! level is not feasible for the income and population of the GF and surrounding area. It probably is not for Fargo either, but they do not have the Hockey ticket issue diluting the available family dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Assuming you could put 8-10K butts in the seats at REA on a regular basis for a decent MBB team you could pay a coach pretty well. The problem in GF is how much of the entertainment dollar per family can they devote to a winning hockey program, FB program, and a MBB program. Their just is not enough local population to financially support several major sports and the costs associated with them. I think that is the major reason that Kup was not a big proponent of going D1. One sport for sure, two maybe, but tickets to every major event at the D! level is not feasible for the income and population of the GF and surrounding area. It probably is not for Fargo either, but they do not have the Hockey ticket issue diluting the available family dollars. Apparently you don't even need to draw all that well to be able to afford to pay a coach big bucks. SIU averaged 4780 per game for basketball this year, and 9297 for football. And yet they pay their basketball coach roughly eight times what we do, and they pay Lennon probably well over double what we pay Mussman. Their ticket sales are relatively modest, which would seem to point to some big donors footing the bill for these rather high salaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 SIU must have some alums with very deep pockets to be able to operate their football program at a significant loss every year, AND to pay their basketball coach $700k! Like I said earlier, the MVC is a BASKETBALL conference first and a FOOTBALL conference second. The revenue they generate from being successful in basketball is way bigger than football in I-AA (or whatever they call it). The NCAA money for the "March Madness" trickles to all those schools, even if they don't make the tourney. There is no big money for the I-AA playoff system. We are doing it backwards up here by making football our "cash cow" and playing at a lower sub-division. We should be emphasizing basketball if we're trying to generate revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakotadan Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Assuming you could put 8-10K butts in the seats at REA on a regular basis for a decent MBB team you could pay a coach pretty well. The problem in GF is how much of the entertainment dollar per family can they devote to a winning hockey program, FB program, and a MBB program. Their just is not enough local population to financially support several major sports and the costs associated with them. I think that is the major reason that Kup was not a big proponent of going D1. One sport for sure, two maybe, but tickets to every major event at the D! level is not feasible for the income and population of the GF and surrounding area. It probably is not for Fargo either, but they do not have the Hockey ticket issue diluting the available family dollars. While I understand this argument, I don't totally agree with it. While our main base for season and individual games ticket sales is going to be GF and the immediate area, we also have to remember that this isn't Grand Forks State University. Most of our season tickets will be sold right in GF and to a lesser extent Fargo, but as an athletic department we need to be drawing people from all around the state and northern Minnesota for our games, and to a much lesser extent getting alums from outside the immediate area to come back for the occasional games. The idea that only GF is going to support UND athletics needs to be forgotten and the athletic department needs to be marketed to a much wider geographical area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Like I said earlier, the MVC is a BASKETBALL conference first and a FOOTBALL conference second. The revenue they generate from being successful in basketball is way bigger than football in I-AA (or whatever they call it). The NCAA money for the "March Madness" trickles to all those schools, even if they don't make the tourney. There is no big money for the I-AA playoff system. We are doing it backwards up here by making football our "cash cow" and playing at a lower sub-division. We should be emphasizing basketball if we're trying to generate revenue. I don't think there should be any expectation that FCS football will ever be a cash cow. But on the other hand, I don't think de-emphasizing football is a prerequisite to having a good mid-major basketball program, either. I would prefer to aspire to be more like UNI or SIU than Butler or Gonzaga or Creighton or St. Mary's because I don't want to sacrifice football, even if it's never going to turn a big profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 These MVC schools all have to compete with instate Big 10 and Big 12 schools, there is a reason why their football teams suffer from a lack of interest. NDSU and UND are not comparable to the MVC schools, we are more in line with the Montana schools. Football has a much easier time being a revenue generator. Football is far from a waste of resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coach daddy Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 These MVC schools all have to compete with instate Big 10 and Big 12 schools, there is a reason why their football teams suffer from a lack of interest. NDSU and UND are not comparable to the MVC schools, we are more in line with the Montana schools. Football has a much easier time being a revenue generator. Football is far from a waste of resources. It would be interesting to see if Montana made more money from their "1 and done" basketball experience in the NCAA tourney or from a runner-up finish in the I-AA championship game for football team. I bet it isn't close. The idea that competing with Big 10 schools and Big 12 schools really doesn't hold anymore water for football than it does for basketball. The interest generated by either would be the same in my opinion. When it comes to recruiting, both football and basketball in the MVC and Horizon are working with 1 hand tied behind their back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FargoBison Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I'm sure it isn't close, Montana receives a pittance for going to the NCAA basketball tournament(the money is split between conference members) while for football the only organization that takes a cut of the gate for Montana's home playoff games is the NCAA. Conferences only receive large sums of money if their teams win. It is much easier to compete in basketball, Creighton was #12 in the nation in basketball attendance last year, dwarfing Nebraska s basketball attendance. That said, the MVC is clearly in a class above the Horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ole in MSP Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 While I understand this argument, I don't totally agree with it. While our main base for season and individual games ticket sales is going to be GF and the immediate area, we also have to remember that this isn't Grand Forks State University. Most of our season tickets will be sold right in GF and to a lesser extent Fargo, but as an athletic department we need to be drawing people from all around the state and northern Minnesota for our games, and to a much lesser extent getting alums from outside the immediate area to come back for the occasional games. The idea that only GF is going to support UND athletics needs to be forgotten and the athletic department needs to be marketed to a much wider geographical area. Yes, I see your point, but during late season FB, Hockey, and BB seasons it is not easy to get to and from GF on a regular basis for people more than say 100 miles away. While I wish all the people in that radius well, I do not think the financial ability of enough families in that area to have season tickets to all the UND major events at a high enough level is available. You have to rely on alumni contributions and a large local fanbase to pay top college coaching salaries. Not saying it is not possible for UND, just a stretch because of local ticket revenue across all the major sports. Good FB and BB coaches at UND and NDSU will continue to be enticed away by higher salaries and bigger opportunities. Fact, as a result of geography as much as anything, the population of the area is just not going to match other universities in size and therefore attendance across the board. The 100 mile radius around SIU has perhaps 20 towns over 20,000 people plus St Louis, Evansville, and Paducah. Believe it or not the area around UNI withing 100 miles has far more population than eastern ND. I love hockey, but the dollar dilution of that program for attendance is not helping the other D1 sports in comparison to schools like UNI, NDSU, and SIU that do not have that distraction of funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 While I agree that FB and BB coaches at NDSU and UND will always be picked by the bigger schools, I do not agree that both UND and NDSU can have good attendance and financial support of both hockey and bball. Especially when the teams could be out of town/in town on alternating weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ole in MSP Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 While I agree that FB and BB coaches at NDSU and UND will always be picked by the bigger schools, I do not agree that both UND and NDSU can have good attendance and financial support of both hockey and bball. Especially when the teams could be out of town/in town on alternating weekends. I did not say anything about NDSU attendance, my point was UND attendance and revenue gets diluted by having so many major sports in such a small attendance area. Something will suffer as folks cannot afford to attend everything. NDSU does not have that problem of hockey diluting the fan dollar. is that what you agreed with? Your reply was confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MplsBison Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I did not say anything about NDSU attendance, my point was UND attendance and revenue gets diluted by having so many major sports in such a small attendance area. Something will suffer as folks cannot afford to attend everything. NDSU does not have that problem of hockey diluting the fan dollar. is that what you agreed with? Your reply was confusing. The only major sports are Men's Hockey and Men's BBall. I think both GF and Fargo can support that at a DI level (I realize NDSU does not yet have hockey) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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