Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 47 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said: It may be that there is a cheaper method to get Nitrogen converted to ammonia than burning to form Nitrous oxides. People may be researching that, like at EERC. Sioux City has an huge ammonia plant, and a Grand Forks could supply a huge area independently. Basin Electric just provides a pittance of regional needs. There isn’t a cheaper way to produce ammonia. They don’t burn the natural gas to get nitrous oxides. The natural gas and water is steam reformed with air to make Nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon dioxide gases. This is the process the GLOBE uses to make ammonia. Urea production is just a further step using the ammonia. A Grand Forks plant will have to build out their own distribution elevators in order to market urea. The agreement with CHS and CF industries will not purchase urea from a competitors plant. Plus any increase in local urea production will have to push out the ammonia fertilizer that is currently being used. If building another fertilizer plant in the state was a good investment it already would have been done. There is a reason the Grand Forks or CHS plants have not been built. you might as well stay away from this thread again for another couple of weeks because you are way off base on how this industry works. All you are doing is speculating on something you know nothing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 https://www.minotdailynews.com/news/local-news/2019/01/fertilizer-prices-projected-to-be-up-this-spring/ Dakota Gas produces half of the fertilizer (ammonia, urea, etc) consumed in the state. So much for being a pittance...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said: https://www.minotdailynews.com/news/local-news/2019/01/fertilizer-prices-projected-to-be-up-this-spring/ Dakota Gas produces half of the fertilizer (ammonia, urea, etc) consumed in the state. So much for being a pittance...... Was referring to ND, SD, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Montana, and NW Minnesota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 https://www.dakotagas.com/news-center/publications/basin-today/urea-production-facility-benefiting-farmers-north-dakota-and new urea plant is working out well for Dakota Gas, still unclear why CHS and the Great Plains Nitrogen plants cant make the economics work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 53 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said: There isn’t a cheaper way to produce ammonia. They don’t burn the natural gas to get nitrous oxides. The natural gas and water is steam reformed with air to make Nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon dioxide gases. This is the process the GLOBE uses to make ammonia. Urea production is just a further step using the ammonia. A Grand Forks plant will have to build out their own distribution elevators in order to market urea. The agreement with CHS and CF industries will not purchase urea from a competitors plant. Plus any increase in local urea production will have to push out the ammonia fertilizer that is currently being used. If building another fertilizer plant in the state was a good investment it already would have been done. There is a reason the Grand Forks or CHS plants have not been built. you might as well stay away from this thread again for another couple of weeks because you are way off base on how this industry works. All you are doing is speculating on something you know nothing about. Talk to these researchers. https://phys.org/news/2018-07-electrochemically-produced-ammonia-revolutionize-food-production.html Maybe you are the person that should stay away from this tread. You’ve said a plastic or petrochemical plant would never be built in ND, but the next week billionaires were backing Bakken Midstream to build infrastructure to do that very thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 55 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said: https://www.dakotagas.com/news-center/publications/basin-today/urea-production-facility-benefiting-farmers-north-dakota-and new urea plant is working out well for Dakota Gas, still unclear why CHS and the Great Plains Nitrogen plants cant make the economics work Dakota Gas and Basin Electric are close to bankruptcy as natural gas prices are so low. Have a relative working at another Basin Plant and things are very tight due to the nat gas price situation. Dakota Gas never would have been built if shale gas was even considered back then. The market has a knack for changing rapidly if new technologies come about so older plant are vacated as non profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 13 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said: Dakota Gas and Basin Electric are close to bankruptcy as natural gas prices are so low. Have a relative working at another Basin Plant and things are very tight due to the nat gas situation. Dakota Gas never would have been built if shale gas was even considered back then. The market has a knack for changing rapidly if new technologies come about so older plant are vacated as non profitable. Good news is the urea production diversified their production. Will it be enough to save Basin Electric,who knows? Unfortunately it does not make a lot of sense to make synthetic natural gas from coal at these low prices. It’s going to be rough for any company that works with coal as we go towards our green energy future. Hopefully they can refocus on carbon capture or maybe producing more ammonia from coal. Syngas may be uneconomical for this lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 49 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said: Talk to these researchers. https://phys.org/news/2018-07-electrochemically-produced-ammonia-revolutionize-food-production.html Maybe you are the person that should stay away from this tread. You’ve said a plastic or petrochemical plant would never be built in ND, but the next week billionaires were backing Bakken Midstream to build infrastructure to do that very thing. There is no plastic or petrochemical plant proposed yet and even if proposed it still is a long way from actually getting built. Building the midstream infrastructure is the easy and least risky investment when you have long term contracts backing its construction and operation. This is why billionaires are lined up to finance this piece. They are not putting their dollars up to build the plant. Until there is an end user for the midstream assets you will not see anything built. The biggest factor is getting a petrochemical plant actually built. The rest is simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 54 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said: Talk to these researchers. https://phys.org/news/2018-07-electrochemically-produced-ammonia-revolutionize-food-production.html Maybe you are the person that should stay away from this tread. You’ve said a plastic or petrochemical plant would never be built in ND, but the next week billionaires were backing Bakken Midstream to build infrastructure to do that very thing. Yes that is a up and coming technology that would use NO NATURAL GAS. How would that help reduceflaring in ND???? It has no relevance in this thread. Are you saying we should not build fertilizer plants in ND that would use natural gas? You are once again proving my point that you know nothing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 29 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said: Yes that is a up and coming technology that would use NO NATURAL GAS. How would that help reduceflaring in ND???? It has no relevance in this thread. Are you saying we should not build fertilizer plants in ND that would use natural gas? You are once again proving my point that you know nothing..... Electricity comes from increasingly nat gas, which is cheap. Once again, you are proven yourself energy illiterate. A source in the middle of a AG region, with available water, would be huge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodak78 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 23 hours ago, Nodak78 said: https://www.willistonherald.com/news/oil_and_energy/bakken-midstream-ceo-mike-hopkins-talks-about-what-it-takes/article_e682268e-9462-11e9-b041-abe3ade259ff.html this is one takeaway from the interview. Q: How many projects is Bakken Midstream looking at doing in the Bakken? A: If we are breaking it down individually, there are at least 12. Obviously, we are not going to do all 12 at once, but we have looked at 12 different projects. Once we have individual priorities nailed down, then we will announce where and what. We have looked at a number of things that are effective for when we talk about a whole new industry. It’s not just one project. Nothing we are doing is a one-off. Nothing is on its own. Everything we are looking at relates to everything else in an integrated industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OgieOgilthorpe Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 New thread title please! Sioux Volley vs Sioux>Bison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn-O Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 36 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said: New thread title please! Sioux Volley vs Sioux>Bison SiouxSports.com: "Have you argued with a stranger today?" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 12 hours ago, SiouxVolley said: Electricity comes from increasingly nat gas, which is cheap. Once again, you are proven yourself energy illiterate. A source in the middle of a AG region, with available water, would be huge You obviously can’t read. The reason they are trying to develop this process is to find a SUSTAINABLE method to produce ammonia and reduce the carbon footprint ammonia production has on the world. Burning natural gas to create electricity would do the exact opposite. Natural gas fired generation is also not the cheapest way to produce electricity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 57 minutes ago, Shawn-O said: SiouxSports.com: "Have you argued with a stranger today?" Reality vs Insanity...... if he would quit posting outrageous hypothesis that he is trying to sell as fact I wouldn’t feel compelled to correct him. He does the same thing in the conference discussions too. No fact just speculation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choyt3 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 15 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said: https://www.dakotagas.com/news-center/publications/basin-today/urea-production-facility-benefiting-farmers-north-dakota-and new urea plant is working out well for Dakota Gas, still unclear why CHS and the Great Plains Nitrogen plants cant make the economics work CHS situation was more about getting instant gratification with the CF Industries opportunity than economics issue. They walked away from a $100 million investment in infrastructure. The timeline coincided with one of the largest bankruptcies in the history of agriculture in Brazil where CHS was a significant creditor, as well as other issues that led to a CEO change. https://www.apnews.com/f653a616ce7b486b97c087185b6e9fa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, choyt3 said: CHS situation was more about getting instant gratification with the CF Industries opportunity than economics issue. They walked away from a $100 million investment in infrastructure. The timeline coincided with one of the largest bankruptcies in the history of agriculture in Brazil where CHS was a significant creditor, as well as other issues that led to a CEO change. https://www.apnews.com/f653a616ce7b486b97c087185b6e9fa2 Big projects like this are bought and sold all the time. If it was economical I wonder why someone didn’t step in to finish the project? They could have gotten a fire sale on all the upfront work. CF could have also stepped in to the project to build the plant instead of just a contract supplying the CHS distribution plants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 OneOK is expanding their Bear Creek gas plant in Dunn County to the tune of over $400 million. https://www.willistonherald.com/news/oil_and_energy/oneok-announces-another-gas-plant-expansion/article_3e0a6cbc-af21-11e9-95e4-d7efade2f4ca.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Not the greatest outlook for ND production, but a war with Iran could change that.... https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/072619-tallgrass-ceo-not-sure-if-bakken-production-profile-supports-more-large-pipe-takeaway-capacity There is a ton of proposed oil pipelines planned for ND right now and some will not be built because production cannot support them all. Losing the Philadelphia refinery rail shipments will help pipelines but cost the producers $. My guess is the expansion proposals will win out against the new builds. Dakota Access can double capacity with just new pump stations (millions) compared to Phillips 66/Bridger JV (billion+). Kinder Morgan and Tallgrass is also proposing to increase capacity of the double H line out of ND with just more pumps. It will be interesting who the producers end up signing on to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 20 hours ago, SiouxVolley said: OneOK is expanding their Bear Creek gas plant in Dunn County to the tune of over $400 million. https://www.willistonherald.com/news/oil_and_energy/oneok-announces-another-gas-plant-expansion/article_3e0a6cbc-af21-11e9-95e4-d7efade2f4ca.html https://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/killdeer-gas-plant-expansion-approved/article_38b68d21-b850-5d44-9adc-41faf5a3b5a7.html An older story on when Killdeer got the nearby plant expanded. That’s two expansions now so Killdeer will almost have the capacity that Tioga does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodak78 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said: https://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/killdeer-gas-plant-expansion-approved/article_38b68d21-b850-5d44-9adc-41faf5a3b5a7.html An older story on when Killdeer got the nearby plant expanded. That’s two expansions now so Killdeer will almost have the capacity that Tioga does. Tioga will be adding another 150 or 200 next year or the year after. They are 450 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodak78 Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 https://www.willistonherald.com/news/oil_and_energy/wardner-north-dakota-is-on-short-list-for-a-petrochemical/article_ec497da8-bd19-11e9-9b22-4fc453891c82.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sioux>Bison Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 43 minutes ago, Nodak78 said: https://www.willistonherald.com/news/oil_and_energy/wardner-north-dakota-is-on-short-list-for-a-petrochemical/article_ec497da8-bd19-11e9-9b22-4fc453891c82.html Many interesting pieces in that article. It says that ND is in competition with 4-5 other locations to get a new petrochemical plant and like Wardner said they all have cheap gas. I assume the locations are near all of the big plays in the US and along the gulf coast. Biggest downside for ND is our location which will increase product transportation costs. It is cheaper to ship the feed stock streams via pipeline that it is to ship the final product out on rail. I also don’t know why they are talking about fertilizer plants. We already tried to build multiple plants in the state and only 1 got built with 1 cancelled and 1 still stalled. The demand for more fertilizer is not enough to build another plant in the state. Flaring is also a problem because a lack of gathering pipelines and available capacity at the gas plants. Once those assets catch up the existing NGL and natural gas pipelines can handle the increased flow. We don’t need to separate and use the ethane locally in order for the industry to grow. It would be nice to use the gas locally but isn’t a do or die. It is a big falsehood the Governor, lutenient governor and the legislative leadership are pushing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 So three petrochemical films that have operations in Alberta are looking to expand in ND (last paragraph). https://www.grandforksherald.com/business/energy-and-mining/4615042-Flaring-reaches-record-high-amid-pipeline-gas-plant-shutdowns It’s been told here that never would happen. But they have transportation challenges there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxVolley Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 On 6/25/2019 at 8:18 PM, Sioux>Bison said: https://www.minotdailynews.com/news/local-news/2019/01/fertilizer-prices-projected-to-be-up-this-spring/ Dakota Gas produces half of the fertilizer (ammonia, urea, etc) consumed in the state. So much for being a pittance...... This article says less than a third of ND’s urea demand is from Beulah, and that doesn’t include ammonia. https://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Urea-lines-one-year-later-512604841.html Western Minnesota, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are also huge markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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