Look on the bright side

[petey23]

I agree with you. UND fans will continue to buy stuff no matter what logo and name are used. I know that I keep buying stuff even though I really don't need any more. I also expect to see a spike in sales of Fighting Sioux merchandise during the next year. A lot of people will want to stock up while they can.

I won't.

I will buy stuff with UND on it, but will never buy anything with a different name and/or logo on it.

[82SiouxGuy]

I won't.

I will buy stuff with UND on it, but will never buy anything with a different name and/or logo on it.

You may never buy anything with a new logo. Or you could possibly change your mind, never is a long time. You might even like the new logo, depending on what it is. That is definitely your decision. And there are probably a significant number of people that feel like you do. But not everyone will feel that way. Some will buy the new stuff to support the school. Some will buy it to add to a collection. Some will buy it if it looks good. And as time goes by, more and more people will buy it because it may be the only name that they associate with the school. It will be kind of like current students at Central High School in Grand Forks. Their nickname is the Knights and I would bet that most of them don't associate Central with the the name Redskins, even though the school used that name for years. That is why I believe that UND will continue to sell plenty of merchandise. Personally I know that I will buy new stuff. Mine wears out. It is just a matter of how slowly I work my way into it. But I doubt that I will change my screen name.

[Goon]

You may never buy anything with a new logo. Or you could possibly change your mind, never is a long time. You might even like the new logo, depending on what it is. That is definitely your decision. And there are probably a significant number of people that feel like you do. But not everyone will feel that way. Some will buy the new stuff to support the school. Some will buy it to add to a collection. Some will buy it if it looks good. And as time goes by, more and more people will buy it because it may be the only name that they associate with the school. It will be kind of like current students at Central High School in Grand Forks. Their nickname is the Knights and I would bet that most of them don't associate Central with the the name Redskins, even though the school used that name for years. That is why I believe that UND will continue to sell plenty of merchandise. Personally I know that I will buy new stuff. Mine wears out. It is just a matter of how slowly I work my way into it. But I doubt that I will change my screen name.

I have a question? Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of the Fighting Sioux name? You seem like your in a hurry to drop an 80 year old name.

[Shawn-O]

I have a question? Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of the Fighting Sioux name? You seem like your in a hurry to drop an 80 year old name.

I won't speak on behalf of 82SiouxGuy because he can articulate it better than I can, but here are my thoughts. After years and years of fighting this, it's in the best interests of UND as a whole to drop the nickname and move forward at this time. I take no pleasure or joy in this, but it is the reality. I guess you could say in the "five stages of grief", I'm in the acceptance mode.

[82SiouxGuy]

I have a question? Why are you in such a hurry to get rid of the Fighting Sioux name? You seem like your in a hurry to drop an 80 year old name.

This is a very difficult question and the answer is very long. If you want the short version skip to the last paragraph for the summary.

I wish that UND could be the Fighting Sioux forever. If you knew me you would know that I have been a huge supporter. I have lots of Fighting Sioux stuff and wear it proudly all over the country. The name and logo represent everything I like in a sports nickname and logo. It is unique, the logo is beautiful and represents attributes like strength and honor. And all of that is in addition to close to 80 years of tradition. I grew up near Grand Forks and have been a Sioux fan since I was a child, which is a long time (I started watching UND football several years before they played in the Camellia Bowl, most people will have to look that up).

There have been times that the name wasn't treated with the proper respect, but I believe that UND has done a very good job for many years and that use of the name has been a positive for the University and the tribes. One story that shows a reason why I like the name and logo would be a trip I took to Boston during the summer a couple of years ago. I was at one of the tourist attractions talking to a US Park Ranger. He asked where I was from. When I said Grand Forks he automatically said, "University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. The college kids around here love that logo." People remember UND in part because of the name and logo.

But I am a realist. I now realize that the fight was over when the NC$$ made their edict and then was allowed to change their own rules. The court case was a long shot. When the NC$$ found another way to change rules after the fact, the case was lost. The settlement just bought UND a few more years. And the decision by the SBoHE last week cut that settlement time by less than a year.

The key part of the settlement, as I see it, was the fact that even if the tribes gave permission they could change their mind at any time. This is basically the same situation as Florida State and the others that have NA names. The difference is the active core group that has been fighting the Sioux nickname for 40 years. I don't think that the other schools have a group that active or large fighting against them. Even if the tribes gave permission (which is a big if) the opposition group would keep working against it. And anyone that has watched tribal politics at all over the years knows that tribal governments can change their minds on a dime. So UND was not going to be safe without some form of long term agreement in place with both tribes. And even that may not be safe since later governments may not feel the need to follow that agreement. They are separate governments so they can do things the way they want.

The election at Spirit Lake showed that there is really support on the reservation. It fit within the results of polls done in the past. But it was not binding on anyone. It did not fit within the settlement's definition of the tribe giving support. Only a minority of the population took part in the election. That means that the nickname opposition would only need to get about 400 more people (out of 6,000 tribal members) out to the polls next time to defeat the name. And you know that the opposition would get another election going if that's all they needed to do to get rid of the name. They were not ready to give up. So I have almost no faith in the ability to find a long term solution at this stage in the game.

The potential opportunity to get into the Summit is very important to a majority of the UND Athletic Department. Being in a conference is very important in collegiate athletics. It helps stabilize costs, especially travel and helps a great deal with scheduling. It also helps build an audience for games as the fans become familiar with opposing teams. At this stage of transition to Division 1 and where UND is located will limit the potential conferences that would even consider accepting them. The only 2 that anyone has recognized as possible are the Summit and the Big Sky. The Big Sky has shown no interest in coming this far east and isn't actively seeking new members. So the Summit is a good fit. They are looking for another member, several former rivals are members, UND could step in and be a quality league member, and many other reasons make it seem like a good idea. It isn't the highest rated conference in Division 1, but those conferences are not going to be interested in adding a transitional school of any kind, especially one outside their footprint. So any idea of joining the Big Ten, Big 12 or even a lower level like the Mountain West conference does not make any sense at all. The Summit may be the only chance of conference membership in the near future. And life in Division 1 without that membership would be very hard. It may end up causing the failure of the move to D1.

Unfortunately for UND, they are not the only school close to the Summit that is looking for a conference. It sounds like there are 5 other schools trying for that single spot. Several of those probably don't have much of a chance, it sounds like the Summit would rather not have them. But we don't know who all of the schools are so it is impossible to determine how they stack up for conference membership against UND. And the conference gets to decide the details like who they consider, what they want and when they want it. If UND wants to get into the conference they have to follow any rules that the Summit would put in place. If UND doesn't follow the rules it would be up to the conference to decide whether they would still want to take UND or would rather take one of the other schools.

I will try to sum up this long winded answer. I think that the chances of keeping the name became very slim when UND was forced to settle the case with the NC$$. It is almost impossible to make that work long term under present conditions. Long term is the key part of that statement. I think that the chance to get into a conference has changed the timeline. The choice became move up the timeline and probably lose the name starting this fall but greatly increase the chance of becoming a conference member or wait until next year when you risk the conference choosing someone else and you still probably have to change the name. If I thought that UND had any real chance of getting a long term agreement to keep the name the whole situation would probably be different. I don't see that happening. So I am like Shawn-O and have accepted the probable change as a necessary evil. And I have accepted the decision to make the change early in order to apply for admission to a conference for most of the UND Athletic Department. I believe that is the best that can come out of a bad situation that has developed over many years. I don't like having to do it, but it is time to bite the bullet and make this hard decision. Dragging it out longer risks doing more damage.

[dmksioux]

This is a very difficult question and the answer is very long. If you want the short version skip to the last paragraph for the summary.

I wish that UND could be the Fighting Sioux forever. If you knew me you would know that I have been a huge supporter. I have lots of Fighting Sioux stuff and wear it proudly all over the country. The name and logo represent everything I like in a sports nickname and logo. It is unique, the logo is beautiful and represents attributes like strength and honor. And all of that is in addition to close to 80 years of tradition. I grew up near Grand Forks and have been a Sioux fan since I was a child, which is a long time (I started watching UND football several years before they played in the Camellia Bowl, most people will have to look that up).

There have been times that the name wasn't treated with the proper respect, but I believe that UND has done a very good job for many years and that use of the name has been a positive for the University and the tribes. One story that shows a reason why I like the name and logo would be a trip I took to Boston during the summer a couple of years ago. I was at one of the tourist attractions talking to a US Park Ranger. He asked where I was from. When I said Grand Forks he automatically said, "University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. The college kids around here love that logo." People remember UND in part because of the name and logo.

But I am a realist. I now realize that the fight was over when the NC$$ made their edict and then was allowed to change their own rules. The court case was a long shot. When the NC$$ found another way to change rules after the fact, the case was lost. The settlement just bought UND a few more years. And the decision by the SBoHE last week cut that settlement time by less than a year.

The key part of the settlement, as I see it, was the fact that even if the tribes gave permission they could change their mind at any time. This is basically the same situation as Florida State and the others that have NA names. The difference is the active core group that has been fighting the Sioux nickname for 40 years. I don't think that the other schools have a group that active or large fighting against them. Even if the tribes gave permission (which is a big if) the opposition group would keep working against it. And anyone that has watched tribal politics at all over the years knows that tribal governments can change their minds on a dime. So UND was not going to be safe without some form of long term agreement in place with both tribes. And even that may not be safe since later governments may not feel the need to follow that agreement. They are separate governments so they can do things the way they want.

The election at Spirit Lake showed that there is really support on the reservation. It fit within the results of polls done in the past. But it was not binding on anyone. It did not fit within the settlement's definition of the tribe giving support. Only a minority of the population took part in the election. That means that the nickname opposition would only need to get about 400 more people (out of 6,000 tribal members) out to the polls next time to defeat the name. And you know that the opposition would get another election going if that's all they needed to do to get rid of the name. They were not ready to give up. So I have almost no faith in the ability to find a long term solution at this stage in the game.

The potential opportunity to get into the Summit is very important to a majority of the UND Athletic Department. Being in a conference is very important in collegiate athletics. It helps stabilize costs, especially travel and helps a great deal with scheduling. It also helps build an audience for games as the fans become familiar with opposing teams. At this stage of transition to Division 1 and where UND is located will limit the potential conferences that would even consider accepting them. The only 2 that anyone has recognized as possible are the Summit and the Big Sky. The Big Sky has shown no interest in coming this far east and isn't actively seeking new members. So the Summit is a good fit. They are looking for another member, several former rivals are members, UND could step in and be a quality league member, and many other reasons make it seem like a good idea. It isn't the highest rated conference in Division 1, but those conferences are not going to be interested in adding a transitional school of any kind, especially one outside their footprint. So any idea of joining the Big Ten, Big 12 or even a lower level like the Mountain West conference does not make any sense at all. The Summit may be the only chance of conference membership in the near future. And life in Division 1 without that membership would be very hard. It may end up causing the failure of the move to D1.

Unfortunately for UND, they are not the only school close to the Summit that is looking for a conference. It sounds like there are 5 other schools trying for that single spot. Several of those probably don't have much of a chance, it sounds like the Summit would rather not have them. But we don't know who all of the schools are so it is impossible to determine how they stack up for conference membership against UND. And the conference gets to decide the details like who they consider, what they want and when they want it. If UND wants to get into the conference they have to follow any rules that the Summit would put in place. If UND doesn't follow the rules it would be up to the conference to decide whether they would still want to take UND or would rather take one of the other schools.

I will try to sum up this long winded answer. I think that the chances of keeping the name became very slim when UND was forced to settle the case with the NC$$. It is almost impossible to make that work long term under present conditions. Long term is the key part of that statement. I think that the chance to get into a conference has changed the timeline. The choice became move up the timeline and probably lose the name starting this fall but greatly increase the chance of becoming a conference member or wait until next year when you risk the conference choosing someone else and you still probably have to change the name. If I thought that UND had any real chance of getting a long term agreement to keep the name the whole situation would probably be different. I don't see that happening. So I am like Shawn-O and have accepted the probable change as a necessary evil. And I have accepted the decision to make the change early in order to apply for admission to a conference for most of the UND Athletic Department. I believe that is the best that can come out of a bad situation that has developed over many years. I don't like having to do it, but it is time to bite the bullet and make this hard decision. Dragging it out longer risks doing more damage.

Very well put...I too never thought that I would have the same feelings on this subject as you stated above. I never believed (or wanted to) that it would get to this point. Unfortunately it has and the University is at a cross roads and needs to consider the future of a successfull DI program when making this decision. Again, nothing is 100% certain at this time, but the University needs to play the percentages and right now, they have made the decision that this is what's best.