nodakhoops

Some girls to watch in the A tourney this week. Commits 15 Davies - Klabo Shanley - Fraase (Volleyball) Prospects West Fargo - Akealy Moton - 2017 Shanley - Sarah Jacobson - 2016 Minot - Cassie Askvig 2016

No it indicates they have an apparel deal.............we all know that story....

Some 2016 FB prospects will be playing on TV this week at the state A tourney for those wanting to watch. Most have been discussed before. Wouldn't be shocked if Bubba showed up to watch....if he does maybe Jones should ride along since he doesn't have anything going on. Minot - Braydon Lund, Ben Bolinski Century - Dalton Feeney Red River - Braedan Hanson Whapeton also has a kid named Carson Zarak that is not a bad looking athlete. First team all state QB that i'm sure UND will try to get to camp. More of an athlete than a QB in college i would say. http://www.hudl.com/athlete/3103731/highlights/171378030/v2. Probably more of an NSIC kid, but thought i would mention for those watching.

I couldn't agree with this more. Recruiting is one thing but fan interest is another. With them opening a new arena if NDSU Basketball keeps making NCAAs and noise in the NCAA tourney every year it could potentially pass UND Hockey for fan interest like their football already has. Some will laugh at that, but UND fans laughed at that comment about NDSU football 3 years ago. I go all over this state, and I hate to say it but NDSU football is the biggest deal in the state by far. When they moved up to D2 in 2003 UND Hockey and Football were easily the two biggest sports in the state followed by SU football UND MBB (Beasley years) UND/SU wbb, then NDSU MBB. NDSU MBB was not a very good D2 program for those that remember. Fast forward 12 years and it's amazing how much has changed. UND has a lot work to do in FB & BB. They need to invest the money b/c its clear to me after watching NDSU the last 6 years what the return could be. FB is on the upswing, but like I've mentioned UND needs to have a facility plan for BBall asap.They are losing ground on all 3 dakota schools. Side note - great game by both teams, and great job by the ND boys (Jacobson & Werner)

Amen to that. Could be making a 5 hr drive to watch both WBB & MBB play in a brand spanking new arena against long time rivals. Love the big sky, but conference tourney 5 hours away would be one big advantage to the Summit.

I think that is an interesting idea. My points of this is UND Basketball needs facility upgrades to stay competitive and like I mentioned I think utilizing REA is the most affordable option. I also would hardly call the REA (nicest arena in the country) a bandaid like 82 called it. A bandaid was rushing the construction of the Betty to accomodate World JR's. They should've held out and waited to raise 5-10 million extra and did it right the first time. IMHO here is what UND basketball needs to stay competitive in basketball recruiting over the next 5-10 years to stay competitive with schools we recruit against. - Betty Upgrades = video board, video scorers table, tradition decorations around the arena like the Ralph, more permanent seating, suites, nicer club lounge, nicer players lounge, locker room updates, weight room updates. - 2-3 court practice facility connected to the Betty - If you do more permanent seating you will lose practice courts. UND needs a practice facility similar to what NDSU and USD are building. REA could also start hosting a lot of youth basketball tourneys then for extra revenue. In my opinion if UND doesn't have a plan for that in 3-4 years and built in 10 some of you who think UND should be in the NCAA tourney every year should lower your expectations. My plan before discussed how I thought the REA and Betty would serve all of those functions right now at a decent price. Now REA just built a addition on the betty for 1 million dollars for hockey net storage......where do you think their priorities are? UND needs to finish IPF phase 2, that should be priority number 1. Where does UND Basketball fall?? I really don't care how it gets done, but IMHO this is what needs to happen for basketball to stay competitive and be in the running for the NCAAs every year. Attendance needs to increase, but I think these upgrades and a focus on basketball does that because the product no doubt gets better. Whether it's updating the Betty, a new arena, or moving MBB permanently to the Ralph and giving the Betty all to WBB I really don't care. I would just like to see a plan for basketball that keeps us competitive moving forward and grows UND Basketball. Making the NCAA tourney in Men's BBall should be priority #1 or #2 for UND right besides winning the NCAA national title in hockey. #3 is probably making the FCS playoffs and #4 making the WBB tourney. The exposure multiple MBB NCAA tourney appearances gives a university is unreal. NDSU got more exposure beating Oklahoma last year than UND got with 7 national hockey titles........I would like to see that for UND someday.

I actually agree with you that giving the betty a facelift or new facility would be the way to go but what is the most cost effective have to grow men's bball. That was the basis of my argument. UND needs to keep up with the competition facility wise for recruiting or we fall further down the list and I don't see attendance improvement or NCAAs without at least trying to keep up. a new BBall facility - 20-30 million (not happening) renovate the Betty - 4-5 million (not happening until after IPF phase two is done 5-6 years maybe?) REA lockerroom for MBB, weight room access, and 5-6/most D1 games in the Ralph - 500,000-700,000 maybe 1 million...That would be for the locker room and the converstion costs the first few years until attendance built up. maybe With IPF phase two going on BBall fundraising falls further down the list. If someone has a better way to improve facilities to help raise bballs profile I am all for it. Just think this is the quickest and easiest way to give MBB some of the best facilities in the country. I agree with everyone that this is very unlikely to happen, but I wanted to at least present an option I thought is feasable. Appreciate the debate fellas.

I think you are way wrong on that. Go back and read my posts, I pointed out exactly how it helps UND raise the profile of MBB. As for the better coach, if that is your preference I also pointed out exactly how BB in the Ralph helps attract a qualified new one. Some of you are talking like the people who never thought NDSU or UND should move D1. Have some vision and understanding of growth potential.

You are talking 1 game. I already stated if it is one game keep everything in the Betty. I'm talking 5-6 games to start out with and then potentially having all D1 home games in the REA with MBB having a locker room and weight room access over there. Let's see 1 game in the ralph coach jones - "no, i want to play in our home gym the Betty." all D1 home games in the ralph, new locker room, and weight room access coach jones - "Yes, a million times over!!!" That two very different conversations....try to keep up.

You only stay status quo by doing status quo. What if that 1500 on Tuesday turned into 4000 on a Tuesday in 5 years after playing in the Ralph takes the program to new heights as I layed out in my previous posts. UND has much more potential then some of you are thinking. UND could be the premier hockey/basketball/football school in the midwest after minnesota and wisconsin. Having MBB in the ralph helps us get there in a big way.

I put that together in 5 minutes. I would hope REA staff could put something together much better. I am pretty sure Men's Hockey leaves town on Wednesdays anyways so them practicing at nights Sun-Tues wouldn't be a change on weeks they are gone. Only change they would see would be during non-conference play if MBB had a game on a wednesday night and they converted it Tuesday. They'd have to practice in the olympic or maybe purpor those nights.......It's been done before. I addressed womens hockey and conference issue in my reply to JDUB. You also wouldn't see 4 straight weeks of one team being at home under this schedule plan. Trust me all of those schedule conflicts could easily be worked out with proper planning which all conferences do. Like I said why doesn't UND just try and have UNI, NDSU, SDSU, and 3 Big Sky saturday games in the REA when both hockeys are gone next winter. If they can average 4000-5000 for those 6 games I think they should seriously think about hosting more or all D1 home games at the REA and putting a MBB locker room over there with access to the weight room. The recruiting returns off of a small change like that could be big time. I'd like to see UND make the NCAA tourney 3-4 times in the next 10 years. I don't think that happens by staying status quo with the Betty and waiting around for it to happen. Make it happen by giving MBB facility upgrades instantly that seperate them from their competitors. The ROI potential is their and if you don't see that I don't think you fully understand college athletics. NSDU and USD are building new arenas and practice facilities. Think about how the Betty stacks up against those by itself and then think about how different the REA/Betty as a small game practice facility stack up against those facilities.

This is all workable in my mind. Yes no MBB Mhcky double headers which I enjoy, but plenty of WBB Mhkcy doubleheaders which might be good for WBB. The goal would be to make MBB the marquee event when MHcky is on the road that week. That way every weekend during conference play their is a marquee sport going on. Leagues schedule games 1-2 years out, so working out schedules with the NCHC and Big Sky won't be an issue, I guarantee that. When you have schedules two years out you plan around things. That is how college scheduling works. Intramural and youth hockey? Why can they still use the facility when time allows? Host intramurals at 10 11 at night....happens all the time. intramural in the olympic and ralph when available...Youth hockey same and everywhere else in town. Icon arena has 2 brand new sheets of ice....Not like Grand Forks would be losing a sheet of ice. The women would move to the olympic, and you would upgrade over time. Right now there is enough seating in there for them. They could still play in the ralph when their games line up with men's weekend's but the weekends MBB is at home they would be in the olympic. They don't have the draw potential MBB does in the ralph. They would still get to play the majority of games in the ralph if you scheduled it correctly. Men's bball doesn't typically have a ton of home games in november and december for MBB so you are maybe talking 2-3 dates prior to January. Lots of available time for Whkcy to still play most games in the ralph. UND is probably the premier school in the WCHA and NCHC those leagues will schedule as UND needs....trust me. I've already stated many times that I know the betty isn't full...This isn't about waiting until the betty is full it would be about giving men's basketball some of the best mid major facilities in the country so they can grow the program to heights never seen before at UND.

This is easy. Basketball practices in the Betty Hockey in the ralph. During conference season you work the schedules so MBB is only playing at home when MHcky is not. Both leagues will accomodate that. During conference season Sun-Tues - Hockey practices in ralph bball in betty Wed morning - - men's hockey practice convert REA to basketball after wed night - basketball practice Thursday Men's shoot around in morning in Ralph game at night Friday Men's practice in ralph Saturday - Men's game in ralph Sun morning. - Convert back to hockey for the next week During non conference Conversions take place 1 day prior to bball game so the team can practice. Otherwise they practice in the Betty Any games against mayville st, etc. gets played in the betty D1 non conference in the Ralph MBB would have main locker room in the Ralph and one still in the betty for the non d1 home games. Women's Hockey is always in olympic which is their new home There's your schedule folks...Any other planning need to be done to get this going? Think we got it covered.

Think we will just have to agree to disagree. I'll break this down and then i'll leave it at that. 1st - UND has decent basketball tradition going back to the 50's-60's. D1 tradition grows with winning, i've stated how this accomplishes that. Duke didn't become Duke over night and they certainly didn't have the REA to utilize otherwise they probably would've. Not saying UND could be Duke, but i'd take Dayton, VCU, UNI, Xavier etc. 2nd - REA isn't going to attract an All Star team - I somewhat agree but it makes a huge difference. You won't convince me showing the REA facilites vs. the Betty will ever hurt UND in attracting those types of kids. Take a look at the offers page in WIKI to see how many kids UND lost the last few classes to other schools. How many of those might've came to UND if they played in the ralph? I bet a few. The IPF for football isn't the magic pill but ask Bubba if it helped with recruiting this year. 2nd - Gameday experience - are you serious?..doesn't video boards, video screen, spotlight entrance, better concessions, sioux shop, suites, club bars, bigger crowds, winning, better opponents, etc help gameday experience? Tell me where I find some of those in the Betty? I've laid out how winning, bigger crowds, better opponents, dollars will follow. Might take sitting through 1500 in the ralph 2-3 times a year initially, but like I mentioned I would rather do that than 2-3 more years like this one in the Betty 3rd - Coaches are the biggest factor in attracting kids - I agree 100%.....BUT what attracts coaches? Laid that out above as well. REA accomplishes this. As for the ice conditions (which is a legit concern)...if scheels arena has struggled go talk to the people at the Kohl Center and see how they have been doing it for years. Their hockey team has won a national title with that setup, I think they could work around that issue. I've said all i need to on this and laid it all out for UND/REA, if it ever happens my donation along with some others I know will be ready to go for the locker room renovations in the REA MBB locker room. Let's think big time and strive to be great with UND Basketball. Go Sioux!

You guys are missing the point here. I fully agree the Betty full is a much better option than a 1/3 full ralph, but how do you get the Betty full?? I think we all agree that comes from winning and consistently winning, right? How do you win and win consistently? You do that with great players, coaches, facilities, and a great university. We can all agree there right?? Well, if UND MBB was the in the REA full time you would have the facility to go along with a great university to attract the recruits and coaches needed to be the Big Sky favorite every single year almost instantly. Can that happen in the Betty....certainly, but not instantly and not every year. You have to sit around and wait for it to happen. Here's some more facts for people clamoring for Betty upgrades. Donations right now are going to Phase 2 of the IPF which is awesome, but that puts anything in the betty on the way back burner at the moment. UND has the opportunity to go from middle of the pack mid major facility to the best in the country in 1 day with no donations other than locker room and concourse renovations and decorations. If you have the best mid major facility in the country you have the potential to be one of the best mid majors. If sitting through a couple games of 1500 people in the ralph the first few years if the worst thing that happens while we get there, big deal. I'd rather do that than sit through 2-3 more seasons like this one in the Betty. REA puts UND MBB on the map instantly with fans, recruits, coaches, alumni, etc. Small time thinking gets small time results = waiting for Betty renovations and for the team to win the conference in the Betty (can happen, but not consistently and as frequent) Big time thinking gets big time results = move MBB to the REA and have one of the best mid major facilities in the county. Big time talent, coaches, Big Sky favorites consistently, NCAA tourney appearances. Having crowds of 4000, 5000, 6000, 7000 fans. Maybe 10,000 for really big games. Makes us even more attractive for a potential FBS run someday (paging SiouxVolley) I guess I strive for UND to be Big time and make the NCAA tourney consistently, not top third of the big sky (bottom this year). The opportunity is right there. I just laid out a map for UND. My donation is ready for the locker room renovation when this happens. Let's go!

I get your points, but a lot of what you are saying I think are reasons to do this. Again think with vision and growth. See below In my opinion, I don't think that many people are going to show up just because the games are in the Ralph. At least not on a regular basis. I've been told that it is a poor shooting background, which the teams don't like. That is especially true when the upper deck is empty. - Although a small sample size history has shown more people will show up if it's at REA. I stick to the opinion that if REA is permenent home to MBB you get at least an additional 1000-1500 on your season average initially, more as it grows. If UND/REA believed that and got after it they would see the results. As for the background after 5 games and some practices suddenly UND is adjusted to it and it's only a problem for the visiting teams. The reasons it's an issue now is because they play one game there every 4-5 years. Won't be an issue after practice and a few games. Because it was designed especially for hockey, the permanent seats are too far from the court to give an intimate environment, and you can't put in bleachers because they would block the view for the permanent seats. You don't get that feeling of the crowd being right on top of the court that you get at top arenas. -You and I must've attended a different game when NDSU was there 2 years ago. They brought seating down on the sides and ends right up to the court. bleachers on the ends, and small bleachers and court side seats on the side. If you just used the lower bowl to start with I think it would still be a great atmosphere. Not as good as the Betty jam packed, but the goal is grow UND basketball to 5000 plus attendance and NCAA tourney appearances. I think that winning games will attract more people no matter where the games are. I think the Betty can be a very good home without huge costs. Even the Alerus could be a better option. The Ralph is a good option for big crowd games, but I don't see it as a great option for every day games. -I agree winning games will draw fans and winning games is the entire reason you completely move MBB in the REA full time. What helps you win games?..1.Great Players 2. Great Coaching. What helps you attract that?.....Great Facilities, University, etc. I agree the Betty can be a good home, but do you want to sit back while UND plays in the Betty hoping for UND to make the NCAA and that attendance grows or do you want to make it happen right now? -Again, heres the deal. If you dress the REA up so it's the home of UND MHCKY and UND MBB basketball, basketball suddenly goes up a notch for casual UND fans which will help attendance initially. What grows interest and attendance long term is winning and success. Do you think UND would have more success showing kids around the REA saying this is your home, weight room, etc, and the Betty is where we practice sometimes.....the answer to this is a big time yes...UND would kill it recruiting. Probably could start trying to get multiple 3* type talent kids at UND as it would make a huge impression on kids. Also, some people don't think Jones will be here much longer, what type of coach do you think UND could get if REA was the main home of UND MBB? You could make a serious run at some pretty high level candidates. Ben Jacobson is of the market after this year, but prior to this year I think that is the type of coach you could attract assuming you payed similar. We would have no shot a getting a Craig Smith type now, but I bet he would be a guy who might give it a look if the REA was the main home. -No reason with the REA as the main facility that UND doesn't have the top talent in the Big Sky, Summit or wherever it plays which would mean multiple NCAA tourney appearances which means more fans, better recruits, etc. No reason we couldn't be Weber State after 6-8 years drawing 6000-7000 fans in the REA. This whole idea is about winning and building up MBB. One other consideration in the matter. Putting the basketball court on top of ice usually results in lower grade ice, and can result in condensation problems on the floor. Most arenas that are used for both have plenty of complaints about the ice. I know that it used to cause problems with the ice at the Ralph. That was before the system was replaced. I don't know if it would still cause problems. -Again Scheels arena, Century Link center, Kohl center, etc all make this work.....shouldn't be what holds up UND from doing this. This is small minded thinking on an idea like this. Facts are facts, and the fact is UND has more growth potential and ability to do big things with MBB than any other sport on campus. Do you want to sit around playing in the Betty waiting for this to happen, or do you want to make it happen by moving MBB to the REA full time. IMHO it is a no brainer. Shoot, do it next year for 5-6 games to test run it and maybe challenge fans a little by saying if we get 4000 plus average in the building for these 5-6 games combined we will move MBB to the Ralph full time and renovate the Olympic for women's hockey. Do it for NDSU, SDSU, UNI, and 3 Saturday Big Sky basketball games when hockey is gone and I bet money you have an average over 4000. Do you know the revenue impact 6 games of 4000 plus fan would have? The potential for moving basketball to the REA is off the charts good for all parties long term.

I will take your word on the conversions. I will ask this though I have heard faison talk about the need for a bigger bball arena down the road, i hear fans talk about wanting video boards, suites, club seating, more amenities in the betty. That costs a lot of money to do that and a lot of fundraising. It might be 15-20 years down the road for some of that. I am saying UND has an arena locked and loaded with all of that right now.....NO future fundraising needed except maybe locker room renovations. Would eating the conversion costs in the short term be worth it to see basketball grow rapidly....The answer to that is a big time yes IMHO. I have no doubt you would see results in fan interest, attendance, recruiting, wins, presteige, etc. Again you have to have some vision which good leaders do. If you try to find excuses for it not to happen it never will. Your conversion costs is the only one of merit I can think of and the long term growth potential right now tells me that is a cost I would pay. I can tell you NDSU, SDSU, USD, Montana, Montana St, Weber St, and even some MVC schools would be a little worried if UND did this because the bar would be set with UND facilities wise. If other schools are worried it usually means your doing something right.

Yes it has. Back in 02-03 they played NCC conference games there and drew around 4000 a game. As for the conversions 82 I think you over estimating. If Scheels arena can do it for the 3000 people that attend force and NDSU games I think REA can for 2 UND sports. Plus if you committed to it and UND made a couple NCAA runs i think you would see attendance approach 5000 plus. Their are a ton of basketball fans in ND. Maybe REA should test it next year with 5-6 games in the REA and if it's worth it make the move to have men's hoops there permenently. I see nothing but upside with this.

Why can't it??? Scheels in Fargo hosts NDSU and Force, Century Link in Omaha hosts UNO and Creighton. Whky will never draw more than 1500-2000 fans a game tops...this year way less. Dress the olympic rink up to 2000 seating and make that their home. it's the perfect size. Why wouldn't you put a sport that can draw 3000-4000 fans a game and potentially more down the road in the REA?? UND suddenly goes from decent mid major facilities to some of the best in the country. We'd be able to compete with MVC schools facilities wise for recruits. The revenue potential is off the charts for this.....why wouldn't UND and REA look into this. You would now have an awesome bball facility complete with suites video boards and the whole nine yards. Guess what you didn't even have to fundraise for it. I changed my mind on this after some thought and now think the best thing UND could do moving forward would be to move all games to REA and MAKE MENS BBALL THE SECOND MAIN TENENT AT REA. Someone with vision at REA should look into this. It's not even that big a risk considering men's bball already showed it could draw 4000 in REA in 03. I bet a lot of casual fans would hop on the bandwagon. a couple 1000 extra people at games is a lot of $$$ not to think about.

Still say you hold 5-6 in REA or have all games at the Betty. I don't just like holding 1 NDSU game at the Ralph every other year. Keep it intimate, unless you go more games at REA. However if you did have 5-6 in the REA each year and averaged 4000 like they did in 03 your numbers might look like this. 6 games in REA - 4000 avg 7 games in the Betty - 1700 avg That would be an average of almost 2800 fans a game total. I like what SIouxVolley said except Hyslop is off the table I would guess. Heres an idea... Why not just play all WHky in the Olympic Rink (Increase seating a little) and have men's BBall be the 2nd main tenant at REA. They could work with the big sky and NCHC to coordinate schedules. How awesome would that be, one weekend men's hockey at REA and the next college hoops. That could really grow basketball quickly. The revenue potential by having men's bball as the 2nd main tenant is off the charts. Actually can't believe that hasn't been brought up before....seems like a no brainer the more i think about it. The facilities would rival any mid major hoops program and you could really start getting some big time talent. Think of the caliber coaches and student athlete you could attract in bball. NCAA tourneys = $$$

I agree with parts of this. If UND wanted to get serious about promoting BBall I think they would be wise to play 5-6 games a year in the Ralph and consider putting basketball stuff up around the concourse and maybe a joint basketball locker room in the ralph along with access to the weight room for those athletes. It would help with recruiting and those 5-6 games in the ralph would easily draw 3000-4000 fans if the opponents were right and they were on the weekends. I base that off the fact the ralph will draw an extra 1000-1500 fans just because it's in the Ralph. Just sell lower bowl only and the atmosphere will be just fine. What UND should do is play all Men's Saturday Basketball games at the Ralph when's Men's hockey is out of town. I know that mean's Women's hockey is home, but play women's hockey on Friday and Sunday or play their games in the practice arena because there would be enough seating. Playing Saturday men's games in the ralph would make it the event in town when the men's hockey team is gone and if you also play games like NDSU, SDSU, UNI, then you are looking at 5-6 games a year which makes sense. If you also have basketball pictures, weight room access, and a locker room over there we suddenly have some of the best mid major basketball facilities in the country. This will all bring more revenue back as better recruits come in because winning and dollars will follow. If you are just going to play a token game in the ralph against NDSU every other year please keep ALL games at the Betty and start investing dollars there. Century Link center is able to house Creighton BBall and UNO hockey. If UND can start playing 5-6 games a year at the ralph i think more casual basketball fans and students will come out and I think basketball revenue and interest will grow. It takes a little vision to see that, but I would hope someone sees the potential with basketball at UND when both men's and women's have averaged 3000-4000 people at games before.

Highly unlikely a high major team comes here unless its a special connection like Boschee for Kansas and multiple staff connections like Brew and previous Gophers staff had. Teague was on radio shortly after that game saying that trip won't happen again. Only reason UND gets UNI is Jake and the next best chance might be Hannah Stewart and Iowa the next few years. Unless its situations like that I wouldn't bank on those teams coming. Women's would have a better chance than men's at this happening, but still maybe once every 5-6 years.

I'm no expert, but Prep Hoops Dakota has him rated as the top player in ND for 2016. http://www.prephoopsdakotas.com/ Not sure on offers, but I think he is NSIC level talent, I i'd put money on him getting NSIC offers. The fact that he is a 6'7 G also means there is great growth potential there. My thoughts with UND and NDSU BBall would be him getting to walk on. I don't see him as a scholarship D1 basketball kid, but I'm not a basketball scout either, so maybe he might be. This is why I said I think he has better potential in football because I think he is potentially scholarship worthy and would be a really nice WR prospect. Plus at 6'7 who knows, the sky is really the limit. He has decent speed, good hands, and is great at the jump balls. Get him in a college program and he could grow into a big time player. You can't teach 6'7 and good hands. Again, i'm no scout so if some of the elite basketball/football minds on here think I am wrong I will defer to their opinion.

Similar games in that they are both around 6 ft and can do a little bit of everything. I do think Frejie is maybe a little better coming out of high school (did have 5 plus D1 offers I think) but she has a lot of work to do to get to Madi Bucks level. By the time Madi was a Sr. She was playing at an extremely high level. Her Sr year was one of the best i've seen by a player in a long time. She's probably a top 5-10 player in UND history. I would say Frejie has good potential but she'll have to develop a lot in college to get to where Madi was by the time she graduates.

I know I brought up Hanson in the BBall recruiting thread as he is probably an NSIC level BBall kid, maybe D1 if SU or UND wanted to take a chance on him. I do think he is a much better FB prospect though and at 6'6-6'7 could be a major red zone target. I think he would do very well in the Big Sky after a few years in the weight room. He along with Zac Kuntz who was brought up earlier are two prospects at Red River to keep a close eye on. I know Bubba feels getting ND kids who have a D1 shot is very important and I think it's even more important to get the ones right in Grand Forks and surrounding towns like Thompson, Larimore, Grafton, Crookston etc.. Garret Reineke being a nice recent example of that.