fightingsioux4life

Yes, you can argue with his numbers, based on the fact he was in a weaker league than Panzer and he had a defense-first system in front of him (I know some people think that doesn't matter, but I think it does). Also, as others have pointed out on here, there are other goaltenders since 2001 that have put up great numbers as well. The idea that Ryan Miller is somehow untouchable just doesn't make sense when you look at all the stats. And it's more than East Coast vs. Midwest, it's also Big School vs. Small School and that is one reason why Panzer was screwed out of the Hobey in 2001. And after 2001, you saw players from smaller schools and/or players that didn't play in big media markets win the award. Coincidence or a result of backlash from the 2001 decision (and some of the decisions made before that)? I guess that is open for debate, as is the relevancy of the Hobey Baker award itself.

The differences in conference schedule are relevant. The WCHA was tough top to bottom in 2001, while the CCHA was very top heavy during that time (3 to 4 good teams and a bunch of average to mediocre after that). I think it is obvious that slamming the door on Bowling Green is a little easier than doing it against the likes of Minnesota, Denver, Colorado College, Wisconsin and North Dakota on a week in, week out basis. And as others have pointed out, Michigan State didn't win the NCAA title that year; Boston College beat us in OT. UND beat Michigan State (and Karl Goehring outdueled Ryan Miller) 2-0 in the semifinals.

I have never liked judging college players based on what they do at the next level. Some great college players do nothing at the next level, while some good college players end up on the right team in the right system and flourish.

Okay, here's a simple question: If it was between Ryan Miller and Johnny Gaudreau this year, who wins? I say it would be Gaudreau by a mile, with Miller a distant second and whomever else (doesn't really matter, does it?) third. And it's because Johnny Hockey plays on the East Coast in a major media market and Miller plays in the Midwest in a much smaller media market (East Lansing, MI). And because goaltenders generally get overlooked for these awards (only two goaltenders have ever won the Hobey), while forwards are usually favored too much. Unless of course you play in a place like North Dakota, in which case your resume is somehow just not up to par. And this idea that Karl Goehring was somehow "not that good" is pure baloney. Karl Goehring was as good as anyone else that ever played the position at UND. Without him, UND could not have played their "Speed Kills" system without giving up more goals than they would have liked. I really get sick and tired of people dismissing Goehring off-hand. I watched him play for four years, he was a great player the moment he set foot on the ice and he was one of the backbones of those legendary teams of the 1990's and early 2000's.

Real classy troll, real classy. And people wonder why Fargo is resented by people in other parts of the state.

First of all, don't even bring that one-dimensional cherry-picker Johnny Pohl into the discussion. Second of all, Panzer was not a "dime a dozen" player. I don't think we've had a forward with the well-rounded game that Panzer brought to the ice since he graduated in 2001. If anybody is a "dime a dozen" player, it's Johnny Pohl. Third of all, I don't think Miller would have had a .950 save percentage if he played on a more wide-open team like North Dakota or Boston College (the two teams in that year's NCAA title game). It would certainly have been above .900, but it wouldn't have been quite as good. I imagine Karl Goehring would have had an even better save percentage than he did if he had played behind a more conservative system than what Blais put in at North Dakota. Finally, I am with you on Ryan Potulny; not putting him in the Hobey Hat Trick was a joke and another example of how subjective this award really is.

The fact that we needed "a little better help" from other teams in the NCHC tells you that our schedule wasn't all that strong this year. Not beating the weaker teams on our schedule was a much bigger liability this year than in previous years.

Yes, this is all subjective and dependent on whose ox is getting gored. But I think the original poster was trying to be a smart-mouth and didn't use an emoticon to illustrate that. And I used it to take a shot at Mariucci, whom I was having a debate on another thread on this topic.

Sorry, I think it does matter. A lot more than plus/minus rating, which is the main argument the Gionta crowd was using. Every year, there are probably a half-dozen players that are deserving of the award. I am simply saying that Panzer was given the short end of the stick in part because of where he played and where he was from. Gionta didn't have the numbers to win it that year, so they gave it to Miller so a kid from a small, non-Division I school (at the time) didn't win it. The year Duncan won it (2007), there was an unusual absence of candidates that really stood out. And even Hrkac had his detractors in 1987, which is so ridiculous I am not even going to go there. I also will point out that after 2001, players from smaller schools started winning the award after years of practically ignoring them. I have always wondered if there was a backlash of sorts over the 2001 decision and it might have influenced the voters after that? I think it would make more sense to have an award for every position (forward, defense, goaltender, special teams, fourth liner, etc.) so that we are comparing apples to apples. The Hobey, as it stands right now, is a subjectively political award.

But according to Mariucci, Miller is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I, however, agree with you.

You are forgetting that Michigan State used a conservative trapping system, which cut down on the number of quality shots Miller faced. I maintain my position that if Panzer had played on the East Coast, he would have been handed the award on a silver platter. Chris Drury won the Hobey Baker in 1998 and his 1997 numbers were better! Gee, I wonder how that happened? Bottom line is, the Hobey Baker is a subjective, political award that most players would trade for an NCAA title in a heartbeat (and that includes Ryan Duncan).

Whomever that is needs to get into the entertainment business (i.e. John Stewart, Steven Colbert).

Isn't that the guy that calls into KFAN's "Bumper to Bumper" progrum and acts like he's drunk half the time?

Jeff Panzer was flat-out amazing. Full strength, even strength, power-play, penalty-kill.....he was great at all of them. He did everything except play in goal. I sometimes would sit in the Old Ralph and just watch him, whether he had the puck or not. He was so smart and so talented. And yes, he was ROBBED of the Hobey Baker Award in 2001. If he had played on the East Coast, he would have won it.

Wow, some short tempers on here! What is it boys, the cold spring weather? There will be some growing pains for a few years, but things are looking up for this program. Let's not overreact to anything that happens in a dozen practices.

Har, har har! I guess the point of my post was that if you are an inspiring NHL player, you need to believe in yourself or you might as well quit hockey and do something else. Of course these guys in the AHL believe they can make it. Not all of them will, but nobody wants to look back 20-30 years later and wonder what might have been.

If you don't expect to, it probably won't happen. You must believe in yourself and believe that you are capable of rising to the top of the ladder or you don't stand a chance. Someone like Jonathan Toews had his sights set on the NHL as a kid and believed he would get there. And all his hard work and belief in himself has paid off big-time. Confidence is necessary to succeed in anything and hockey is no exception.

I hope you are right about changes at MSU, but I wouldn't bet any money on it. Weasels and snakes at this level seem to get out of trouble more often than not. And no, this isn't the same as the Saban-Miami-Alabama affair; I just get tired of coaches jumping from one job to the next, while the players are supposed to remain loyal to their school forever and ever. Collegiate athletics need some major reforms.

And Mr. Real World 2, in this mythical "real world" you live in, shouldn't there be consequences for breaking a contract you signed in good faith with someone else? If I was the owner of the Dolphins, I would have been tempted to sue the crap out of Saban for breaking his word with me and with the Dolphins organization. But that world doesn't really exist, does it? Saban prospers by being a snake and, until those MSU administrators are fired for almost ruining Hoffner's life, they also will prosper for being a snake. Welcome to the (Real) Real World (not to be confused with an album by Mr. Mister! ).

Really, Mr. Real World? Well, in this mythical "real world" you are talking about, the suits at MSU would have been fired for treating Hoffner like they did. Last time I checked, they still have their cushy office jobs. Obviously, someone is protecting them. So who is looking out for the student-athletes that have been jerked around for the past year? Bueller? Bueller? And Mr. Real World, yes, in collegiate athletics, you do get to "pick your boss". Athletes often determine which school to sign with based on whether or not they like the head coach and his staff and the culture of the program. And when something bad happens (Penn State anyone?), athletes often get a chance to transfer without penalty because they didn't have anything to do with the incident in the first place. That is what should have happened here, although it looks like the players are going to stick it out, which I commend them for doing. The very idea that the players (who had absolutely nothing to do with creating this whole mess) should have to take any responsibility whatsoever in cleaning this mess up or in accommodating the incompetent suits at MSU in any effort by them to save their own arses is absolutely outrageous and wrong. Second to Hoffner (obviously), the players are also victims in this whole fiasco. The final act in this scandal had better be the termination of the AD, the President and whomever else was involved in proclaiming Hoffner guilty until proven innocent and probably ruining his public reputation forever. End Rant.

It's only a matter of time before the 4 team FBS playoff expands. As soon as the bean counters realize how much profit potential there is in playoff expansion, it will happen. I see it expanding to 8 teams in a few short years. The biggest it could get is 16 teams (11 auto bids and 5 at-large). Of course, if this radical realignment ever happens, it would change the timetable on this.

Is this your way of saying this thread should be locked because "it's none of our business"?

Really? All the blame for this mess lies at the feet of MSU administration. They have screwed this whole thing up from the start and have thrown everyone's lives into a blender. Also, I think one of the more hypocritical aspects of college sports is that coaches can move around all they want, while the players are supposed to just suck it up no matter what. That needs to change. I think a waiver of the one season sit out rule for transfers is in order here. Any player that no longer wants to put up with the three-ring circus MSU administration has built in Mankato can transfer to a different school and be eligible immediately. The sooner everyone moves on with their lives, the better.

No we shouldn't, because you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Our team didn't get a chance to take their shot at Union and that is something the team (especially the seniors) will be carrying around with them for some time.

Nobody remembers second place (except for the team that finishes second place). And losing a championship game is one of the most painful experiences in sports (just ask the Buffalo Bills of the 1990's). I have heard NHL players say it is better to miss the playoffs than get to the Stanley Cup Finals and lose. But again, your program hangs runner-up banners, so I guess it's different for you guys.