Brett0909

Totally aligned in principle, but I wonder since style of play like the Beavers has been UNDs kryptonite late in the season for so long that it seems almost necessary to get some reps in against a team like that. Then again, we don’t seem to find an answer against that style so maybe it’s just unnecessary eye torture.

Setting aside the generally dissatisfied nature of fans on here…it’s a fascinating debate, if you can appreciate it as such. We could all argue both sides with a winning argument - how Berry has struggled and a change is needed (postseason, eye test, trending wrong direction) vs. how Berry has been highly successful (wins, regular season championships, full seats, and a natty). I, for one, value all the differing perspectives. Especially when I’m frustrated and need to be checked on my overreaction (thanks to those trying to temper the more extreme reactions). Whether good or bad, I’ve just lost my passion for this argument and shifted into wait-and-see mode. Of course, that may be partly because I’m heading to Cabo next week. Berry’s performance or this lost season just isn’t needling me the same. Hope everyone else finds their zen and perspective while we see what the future holds.

All anecdotal, but I hear a lot less from commentators and scouts about the UND development pathway than I used to. Berry’s done a good job of finding some talent who was a bit overlooked early on but had high upside (Blake, Sanderson)..but certainly not winning many/any of the truly elite prospects that some other top programs are bringing in every year. I’d be surprised if UND was in the top 20 destinations for most advisors (CHL, NCAA, etc teams). After being probably top 5-10 under Hak. Not proof, but the days of GMs LOVING sending their guys to GFK as mentioned? I just don’t see it right now.

What a bummer, but I’m in the same boat - can count on my fingers the total number of games I’d missed in the last 15 years, before last year. Since then, I don’t even think twice about making any other plans on a Friday or Saturday night. ANY other plans. I’ve started to approach games with pure pessimism, hoping to be surprised if the team looks like they actually care and are willing to put in some effort. If Berry is still here, I won’t be renewing my NCHC next year. Will be interesting to see what season ticket renewals look like, as that’s probably going to be the deciding factor for Berry over “passion” or team performance. As long as folks around GFK keep filling the REA, there will be no interest in making a difficult decision about one of their own. I’m afraid they’ll wait until it’s beyond obvious they need to make a change though; and by then it’s going to require a full rebuild. We shall see.

Exactly. Every fan base thinks their teams got the bad call, bad draw, injury bug, etc. Turns out the same thing goes for UND’s opponents. We just don’t give them credit/grace when it happens to them. Add to it that UND is “lucky” to play at a home regional every other year. They’re lucky that even their away games have a healthy UND crowd. They’re lucky to have destination games, HoF games, charters, and every possible resource for recruiting top talent. What earns them this “luck”, despite operating in a small market? A loyal and rabid fan base, most of whom are committing capital. Sure those fans are demanding (and sometimes negative and whiney), but you can’t expect to be given everything as a program and then complain that expectations are too high. Berry knew what he was signing up for. Here’s hoping he can change the narrative to restore some harmony around here. Winning has a way of doing that.

Agree, and it would be great if any of us had that level of visibility (or expertise) to have that discussion. But it would also be pretty quiet and boring around here if expertise was a prerequisite to post. It’s an interesting argument that we should temper our criticism (or calls to change) the coach if we can’t articulate what he’s doing wrong. Although I really appreciate those defending him against the generalized frustration where the actual arguments don’t hold up… My unsolicited take? If Berry isn’t ACCOUNTABLE to the end-result (regardless of whether I can tell you precisely where he’s failing), who is? Every player, staff member, fan, etc contributes in their own way, but they merely play a role. The HC is the only position that is ultimately responsible for everything and shouldn’t be making excuses. They own the team’s result one way or another. He’s paid for this, and no doubt feels the weight of that responsibility every day. He has the resources to win in the post-season. It’s up to him to use every possible tool at his disposal to do it. The hard part is deciding the line between regular season success and post season disappointment to make a change. My line was a couple years ago when I realized I was confident they were going to lose in the post-season each year, and I no longer looked forward to filling out my bracket, taking regional days off to scout the “competition”, etc. I also stopped spending thousands of dollars on destination games that they consistently underperformed at. Maybe that makes me a bad fan and I hope to be proven wrong, but would ANYONE honestly put money on a Berry post-season game, regardless of the year/situation/“bad bounces”, etc.? I was (and am) ready for a change. But I won’t try to tell anyone else where their line is, there’s no “right” answer and likely only history will tell.

This. Every team in similar coaching situations needing to decide if occasional flashes or selective success are good enough, ultimately comes out stronger when they finally cut the anchor/HC. You can wait forever hoping for a different outcome, or just do the hard part of the business and make the call before it’s too late. Lucia, Berenson, York, etc. All major teams with HCs who had historical success that kept them around past their time to move on (more success than Berry). And that’s not counting teams like DU who lose a top tier coach like Monty and still uplevel after. UND athletics continues to have no urgency and cater to local politics, and it shows across the board with every sport having year after year of disappointment. Hockey lasted longer than most and deflected attention away from the even bigger issues in every other sport, but is sliding into mediocrity. Seriously, 1 win in the playoffs after his rookie season and now being outclassed by RMU and BSU with what should be a stacked team (minus injury issues). ?!?! It’s embarrassing to say the least. And for anyone who needs to hear it, this isn’t a recent overreaction. I didn’t like the hire, hoped I was wrong after his first year, and have been underwhelmed every year since. But he seems to have completely lost control at this point.

And you can blindly defend him all you want, but fans still have the right to criticize poor performance on a fan forum.

This part’s always stood out to me - Goehring has consistently maintained an NHL style bumper position on the PP, but they never score. Most of the time they don’t even get the shot off which is a recipe for an easy clearance the other way. They had one Grade-A shot from there last night which stood out because it’s so rare, but if they can make that position a true threat, it would be a game changer (paging Oshie) on an already reasonably effective PP. Until then, at least the bumper draws lots of defensive attention and opens up space up top, even if it amounts to a decoy position with our current system.

Maybe some (like customers, fans are supremely discontent), but things aren’t nearly as black and white as everyone on the boards seems to recall or overly-generalize. I never wanted to fire Hak, even if it was head scratching how things always fell apart at the F4. But I’d definitely trade a Berry for a Hak today, even if it meant maybe they don’t win the NC in 16’. Very hard to imagine the program wouldn’t have had greater year-to-year success, and be in a better position today. BUT it ain’t happening, so…we get to watch the team struggle to get back to where they were until some day when Berry hopefully figures it out. OR (and this is me, and many others), gradually lose interest, invest less time and financial support, and relegate ourselves to hoping to be surprised with some success instead of expecting it. A big bummer when the scales tip toward disappointment instead of joy, but thankfully there are tons of other sources of entertainment, especially for those of us outside of GFK. It wouldn’t hurt for us all to keep in mind though that everyone here cares (or they wouldn’t be on a fan forum), supports UND in their own way, and wants the team to succeed even if we have different opinions about what that entails.

Love it. Thx for collecting some of the greatest hits, it’s fun to see some posters that haven’t been around for years. At least we’re consistent! I laughed out loud at seeing stoney trying to calm down the overreactions on the first page I viewed, 10 years ago. Impressive resilience keeping up the good fight, I know it can’t be easy.

+1, I will miss the Friday game to be at MLS, and can’t justify the $25 minimum buy-in for Sat game only on the CCHA tv package (likely for a bad stream/production besides), but would be fine paying the Tier1 Midco plan for $10. Guessing stuck paying for the $25 package though?

This is the rub of it, right? And always fun to debate on things none of us are qualified to truly judge. (Sorry, I know we were trying to return to regularly scheduled programming).., I’d like to think if Berry was asked about each season since his first what went wrong, he’d give you a list of big and small things every year that he would’ve changed. Just part of the process for all coaches (or any professional for that matter). He’s competing against a lot of really good coaches who all want it just as bad, after all. It’s okay if he’s not the best. You take that list and shave off 10 or 20% of those things, and there’s a real chance that some of those seasons end differently- they make the playoffs, they make it to the FF, etc. Maybe Carle simply connects on that extra 10-20% of misses (recruiting, discipline, lines/in-game, drills and focus, mental aspects, etc.). I always felt Hakstol was an amazing GM, managing the team. And Berry was possibly the better game time coach and connected with the players. We saw a loaded Hakstol team that Berry led to victory…maybe neither would have done it on their own. I believe Berry’s a really good coach - likely top 5-10 in college hockey. I’m certainly rooting for his success. But I also believe the sample size is big enough now to know that Berry’s team is on the wrong side of needing bounces in the tourney - not 50/50 puck luck, but they just aren’t performing well enough to NOT NEED a bounce or two to go their way in order to win against good teams. Other than the shenanigans against BU, they certainly aren’t outplaying other teams but losing off of bad luck lately. If you listen to DU players, they 100% BELIEVE they’re going to win when it counts. UND players seem to be hoping lately not to lose in the postseason, and lose that belief in winning when things get hard (small slumps or full-on collapses that cost them the win). Compare to Sandelin’s NC teams or Carle’s last year - they were nearly flawless in their execution, even when playing more talented teams. Belief and mental resilience seems to be as good a driver as any I can come up with for the difference. This is an extreme example as Carle (results wise) is in a league of his own right now, like York was. But hopefully Berry’s taking notes and the optimists on the board get some vindication in the post-season soon. Berry HAS won (a share of, at least) the Spencer Penrose and dominated the regular season, so I’d say we’re debating first world problems…and I trust that he wants it far more than any of us and is giving his best.

Genuinely appreciate all your efforts to temper the ledgies who are prone to over-reacting on here…but are you really planting a flag that Carle is not a better coach than Berry, he’s just been luckier (year after year)? Maybe I’m misunderstanding… I think we can all agree luck is involved and you likely can’t win it all without a bounce or two…and Carle got more than his share last year. But we have a decade worth of evidence that something isn’t working for Berry when it matters most, and I SERIOUSLY hope he isn’t sitting around complaining that it’s just been year after year of bad luck. Even he seemed to acknowledges the need for changes to get a different result. What great coaches (vs. good) do, in the thousands of choices they make, we’ll never fully understand. But some elite coaches are consistently getting the results while some aren’t. Ultimately, Berry knows he’s judged by the final game of the year..I think it’s fair for posters here to also acknowledge that.

If my counting abilities are still accurate, I’d like to shrewdly deduce that we have 13 drafted skaters in tonight vs. their 9. Victory is assured! Also, in interesting news…every Friar forward line is rolling with a Fr, So, and Gr. Maybe that’s their answer to the Getter-Setter-Shooter approach.

Agreed on Emery’s size (at 6’3”), but hard for most of us to even comprehend how freakishly lean he is. Most competitive bodybuilders at show weight won’t ever achieve the 3.64% bf he registered at the combine. Even pushing him up to an average 12-15% bf of a solid college athlete, he’d be pushing close to 200# and we wouldn’t think anything of it. Adding 10# + of muscle (and even 10#) of fat, and he’ll be an absolute unit. Combined with his elite athleticism, it’ll be fun to see what he can do.

I think the point is that there could be a lot of reasons Brock experienced this. It sucks. Bad. Acting like it’s a statement of fact and tying it a political or anti-vax agenda isn’t helpful. Nor is it factual. Maybe check out some published studies on the now massively researched risk profile before making comments like this (hint, your risk of clots is exponentially higher from non-vaxed Covid infection than from the vaccine) or worse, making statements that Brock will regret getting the vaccine and cost him his career. The chances that a clot could occur from drugs (legal or not) or steroid usage (whether anabolic or cortico- again, legal or not) is SIGNIFICANTLY statistically higher than risk from the vax which is almost nonexistent. But you don’t see anyone accusing him of drug or steroid use just because he’s an elite athlete. Why? Because it would be incredibly irresponsible to do so and he’s a great dude that deserves better. Suggest we spend our energy putting goodness into the world for his recovery.

Boeser with the 2-1 GWG for Vancouver who takes a 2-1 series lead. Canucks outshot badly 12 to >30. JT Miller got the first goal.

I get the perspective, and likely agree more than I disagree. All things equal, I think a change is necessary to start the upswing and now’s the time. Curious what you’re suggesting exactly? I personally believe it’s also clear that all those programs I mentioned are in much better shape than they were before making the coaching change, but we can split hairs on whether being a NC runner-up the last two years (BC and UMN) and multiple FF’s (Mich) is success or your point implying it’s not…when comparing to UNDs ongoing struggles. Regardless, appreciate the perspective and attempt to calm the overreactions and hope this debate is old history come this time next year.

Thank you for pulling together the history lesson. Certainly interesting and helpful to add some historical perspective when it’s easy to just dwell on the recent past. The only thing I worry about is the (perceived) mentality from some that past success/cycles indicate future success. There are just as many historical programs that fade into history and don’t bounce back. Simply waiting for the cycle to work its way out or expecting we’ll just stay at the top because we always have been is a recipe for fading out of relevance. Holding for Sears and Blockbuster on line 1. Programs generally have a catalyst that helps lead the cyclical upswing - new coach being one often talked about here (not saying I agree or it’s the only one). It obviously wasn’t easy to part with York, Lucia, Berenson, etc. but we’ve seen how that’s reinvigorated those programs. Every other program is fighting for every possible advantage, if UND doesn’t fight just as hard, possibly make some tough decisions, and be willing to deeply reflect on what needs to change in the postseason, what’s happened before may not matter…

I won’t keep belaboring my disbelief with the “some teams just have all the luck” crowd (and we’d be great / competing for championships if only we weren’t so damn unlucky every single year). What I saw? DU was composed and confident throughout. Psychologically they were rock solid even under intense pressure. Their goalie and team D bought in and made the right decisions in nearly every play, with no major breakdowns. They had a game plan and executed it. They showed up repeatedly in OT through the FF and when the game was on the line, even against greater talent. They got some luck, but played well enough to capitalize on it and/or overcome the bad bounces. They quoted you go to DU to win championships and I believed they believed. Felt the same under Sandelin for a while. This seems to be the contrast to UND teams lately..it feels like they don’t believe, and need things to go their way or else they start to break (not bend). I know many of us fans don’t believe right now. Players under Hakstol talked about believing in the curse of getting over the FF hump, so you know players pay attention. Some coaches get their team to believe and others don’t. I honestly wonder at this point if Berry and the staff believes they will win or if they’re trying to play not to lose? Just speculation and I’m sure it’s a lot more complicated than that, but whatever a “winning culture” is.. Anyway, kudos to DU and congrats on bringing home another title to the NCHC. May you lose all your top players and have a down year in 2024.

Wellness check time for Bucci. Sounded like someone kicked his puppy the longer it went and his superstars didn’t score..

Respectfully disagree (in part), but it’s cool that we have both sides of the debate here. If we were to talk to the other teams fans or coaches in all those same games, or take off our green-tinted glasses, they’d point out their own bad luck/bounces and be just as right (several waived off goals, their own key injuries, things that came to light after the season ended, TWO empty netters to tie it, UND having home ice and/or crowd advantage, talent, facilities, resources, all the bad calls or breaks other end that we didn’t notice because that’s how sports go, etc.). Cherry picking the things that weren’t perfect for UND and connecting that to defend the ongoing string of losses can mostly be chalked up to we were unlucky a lot continues to imply these things are just happening to one team. They happen on both sides, but are now a TREND for UND, not a bad luck bounce. I can almost guarantee Berry and the staff aren’t sitting around moaning about 8 years of bad bounces that always go against them (and if they are, count me in the fire Berry crowd). Michigan came out FLAT. UND had an incredible opportunity to capitalize for a big chunk of that game, against a team that even when they’re not flat, aren’t a world-beater by any stretch. And in my book, had the easiest 1 seed to go through this year, despite blowing the end of the season and a home crowd and #1 seed that were almost guarantees at one point. But they managed again to find a way to lose, instead of win. UMD, Notre Dame, etc. as have been pointed out…we had more than our share of breaks. BU? Well, that one just flat out sucked and UND was as close to deserving a win in a game they lost there as I’ve seen. Would have been the best game/crowd atmosphere I’d ever been to if a bounce went the other way, and I’m onboard with that just being an unlucky one. BU would argue playing in Fargo in front of a packed and RABID UND fan base when they were the higher seed was pretty unlucky I bet, and no doubt influenced their play. I’m not sure what the answer is here, but do believe the coaching staff has to figure something out vs “have better luck next year”. And I’m also pretty sure (and hope) they would say the same thing.

It’s always going to be “something”, right? Every NCAA tourney on this streak of losing can be picked apart and excuses made for why UND just had “bad luck”. Yes, some luck’s required at times to win it all…and most of these teams have been competitive, making for some close games at least. But despite their seeding, makeup, etc. for nearly a decade they’ve all been in the position that they needed bounces to go their way and couldn’t overcome any that went against them. You’re not going to win many postseason games (and certainly not four in a row) when every game is dependent on things going your way vs. controlling. And we can’t make the same “bad luck” excuse year after year; turns out all the other teams winning or losing all play the same game and face the same bounces. You need to dominate a few games, dig deep in others (winners find a way to win), AND likely get a little puck luck at the right time. Some teams right now have it..and UND clearly doesn’t. This isn’t doom and gloom from me, we’ll all be hoping they figure it out next year. It’s just hard to hear the bad luck excuses year after year as if every other team just gets lucky in their wins. Most on here would be making fun of any of our rival fan bases making excuses every year about being the better team but losing because of luck. I’d like to think we’re better than making those same excuses. UND hasn’t been good enough to win without luck, for whatever reason…and winning the luck-battle isn’t a great strategy. Hopefully they figure it out soon.

All goalies will give up a few…felt his bad game was just at the worst time. He won the Richter and was UND’s all-time leader in career goals against and save percentage after all…I guess in my book that makes him pretty good.